Spoke lacing problem...

edelweiss

Coast to Coast
I'm in the process of lacing a 72 CB500 front rim and did the following in this order:

• Laced angled ended spokes as my inners at correct angles
• Hand tightened on nipples into proper holes on rim
• Laced right-angle-ended outer spokes
• Hand tightened on nipples into proper holes on rim

My lacing pattern seems to be correct, as I placed this black, powder coated rim over a factory laced rim and the lacing pattren matches

The issue:
Despite screwing the hell out of the nipples on the outer and inner spokes, the hub still has tons of movement (play), and now the spoke threads our out the back of each nipple by about 5mm. Also, half the nipples are sticking out the back of the rim.

What did I do wrong?

Thanks for any help.

John
 

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After thinking about this, is it possible that the angle of the first inner I attached to the rim should have been at a more severe angle? (reaching to a farther hole in the rim)?
 
Yes, the spokes are not in the correct pattern for those spoke lengths. The wheel you copied had a different pattern, was it a drum hub? You laced it in a 2-cross pattern, that is each spoke overlaps 2 other spokes going the opposite on the same side. Should be laced in a 3-cross pattern.
 
DrJ said:
Yes, the spokes are not in the correct pattern for those spoke lengths. The wheel you copied had a different pattern, was it a drum hub? You laced it in a 2-cross pattern, that is each spoke overlaps 2 other spokes going the opposite on the same side. Should be laced in a 3-cross pattern.

Are you saying that my first inner spoke should have reached for a hole 3 more down the rim (a more severe angle)? If done properly, I should have more of a "fanned out" even pattern? I did not copy the stock laced rim, I was following a Youtube video... :eek:, No, the stock laced rim has the same hub as mine.
 
According to this photo, the adjacent spokes at the hub flange should be 10 holes apart at the rim. You installed them 6 holes apart.
 

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DrJ said:
According to this photo, the adjacent spokes at the hub flange should be 10 holes apart at the rim. You installed them 6 holes apart.

Yep, I see what you mean. Thanks so much DrJ! This is probably a good, well, the only way to lace properly, is by making reference of the holes between a inner and outer spoke before starting. I though I was going crazy!! Oh well. Thanks bud.
 
DrJ said:
According to this photo, the adjacent spokes at the hub flange should be 10 holes apart at the rim. You installed them 6 holes apart.

My question is, we (you) figured out the problem with a another wheel for reference, but there must be a method to determine the correct first inner spoke position without reference. Is there one? Different wheels have diffrent spoke counts.
 
I've built many wheels but am no master. There probably is a formula for spoke patterns somewhere online or maybe it's a dark secret that gurus keep for themselves. I just take reference photos, draw a diagram or copy a similar wheel.
 
Actually, it is quite easy. Simply install all the inner spokes for one side and thread the nipples maybe half way. Inner spokes are the ones that pass through the outside face of the flange and end up with the length of the spoke on the inside of the flange. Rotate the hub against the rim to take up all the slack out of those spokes. Install the inner spokes for the other flange, and orient them to produce the same, but opposite angle as the other side. You will observe that the holes for the spokes on opposite flanges are not directly across from one another. Of the two holes directly opposite any installed inner spoke, the correct hole will be the one that results in an overlap of the two spoke as viewed along the length of the axle. In other words, the two spokes on each side of the assembly will cross each other almost where they install in the hub when viewed from the side, or overhead if you have the assembly laying flat on a table. It should be evident where everything goes by looking at the rim - the holes should "aim" at the origin of the spoke at the hub. You can verify this by holding the nipple in the rim without the spoke. There are invariably tell-tale marks on the hub that will show where the spokes originally were located, but if they are insufficient, or you are starting with a new hub, the previous explanation will put you in the right direction. With all the inner spokes installed, you can verify that all is well by simply spinning all the nipples down until the spoke is close to flush with the outside of the nipple. the assembly should be obviously getting tight, and the rim should be looking reasonably straight and true. Back all the nipples off leaving only 2 or 3 threads engaged, and lace up all the outer spokes. It will be obvious where they go. Only engage a few threads on all spokes until all the spokes are installed. You will need the slack to offset the hub from center to engage the last few spokes. Usually ALL the spokes can be installed without any bending or forcing or scratching the rim.

The above is true for 99% of motorcycle wheels. You no doubt will know if you have an unusual pattern.

If you did not coat all the threads with anti-seize compound, get a beer and take every nipple off one at a time and re-install with the anti-seize!!!

Spin all the nipples up about 3/4 of the way. Then creep up REALLY slowly, like a half turn each nipple working your way around the wheel. It pays to have a dedicated starting point, like the valve stem hole or a piece of tape so you don't lose your place. After you have done a few wheels you will be able to gauge how far you can thread on the nipples before it adversely influences your work truing it up, but keeping all the spokes very evenly threaded will pay off so creep up on it until you get comfortable with the work. Remember, every single spoke affects the other 35 (39 etc), so by the time you get all the way around the wheel with only a half turn, you have made a substantial change! A little patience will result in a very surprisingly true wheel when all the spokes are snug, making the actual truing a breeze.
 
jpmobius said:
Actually, it is quite easy. Simply install the inner spokes for one side and thread the nipples maybe half way. Inner spokes are the ones that pass through the outside face of the flange and end up with the length of the spoke on the inside of the flange. Rotate the hub against the rim to take up all the slack out of those spokes. Install the inner spokes for the other flange, and orient them to produce the same, but opposite angle as the other side. You will observe that the holes for the spokes on opposite flanges are not directly across from one another. Of the two holes directly opposite any installed inner spoke, the correct hole will be the one that results in an overlap of the two spoke as viewed along the length of the axle. In other words, the two spokes on each side of the assembly will cross each other almost where they install in the hub when viewed from the side, or overhead if you have the assembly laying flat on a table. It should be evident where everything goes by looking at the rim - the holes should "aim" at the origin of the spoke at the hub. You can verify this by holding the nipple in the rim without the spoke. There are invariably tell-tale marks on the hub that will show where the spokes originally were located, but if they are insufficient, or you are starting with a new hub, the previous explanation will put you in the right direction. With all the inner spokes installed, you can verify that all is well by simply spinning all the nipples down until the spoke is close to flush with the outside of the nipple. the assembly should be obviously getting tight, and the rim should be looking reasonably straight and true. Back all the nipples off leaving only 2 or 3 threads engaged, and lace up all the outer spokes. It will be obvious where they go. Only engage a few threads on all spokes until all the spokes are installed. You will need the slack to offset the hub from center to engage the last few spokes. Usually ALL the spokes can be installed without any bending or forcing or scratching the rim.

The above is true for 99% of motorcycle wheels. You no doubt will know if you have an unusual pattern.

If you did not coat all the threads with anti-seize compound, get a beer and take every nipple off one at a time and re-install with the anti-seize!!!

Spin all the nipples up about 3/4 of the way. Then creep up REALLY slowly, like a half turn each nipple working your way around the wheel. It pays to have a dedicated starting point, like the valve stem hole or a piece of tape so you don't lose your place. After you have done a few wheels you will be able to gauge how far you can thread on the nipples before it adversely influences your work truing it up, but keeping all the spokes very evenly threaded will pay off so creep up on it until you get comfortable with the work. Remember, every single spoke affects the other 35 (39 etc), so by the time you get all the way around the wheel with only a half turn, you have made a substantial change! A little patience will result in a very surprisingly true wheel when all the spokes are snug, making the actual truing a breeze.

Thank you. This is great. This was definitely NOT explained in the video I was following and left a lot of variables leading to my fail.

Thank you for taking the time to write all this out for me. And I would have not though to use the anti seize! Thanks bud!
 
I had never laced a wheel before my latest build and wanted to know how. This video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENrRl2FyNTw

Was so much help! Knowledgeable and explained exactly what to do. I was able to lace my front from a 21" to an 18" no problem after watching it a few times and while lacing it.
 
pjams said:
I had never laced a wheel before my latest build and wanted to know how. This video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENrRl2FyNTw

Was so much help! Knowledgeable and explained exactly what to do. I was able to lace my front from a 21" to an 18" no problem after watching it a few times and while lacing it.

I watched the same video as well, but the absence of any explanation of why and where the first inner spoke goes into the rim set me up for a fail. I know now, if I need to lace or relace a rim, I will take photographs of the laced rim before I take the spokes off and make reference of the amount of holes in between a outer and inner spoke. This guy also also has a truing video as well. They are good videos, but if important details are left out it really can waste your time. Thanks for sharing!

John
 
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