CL450 or 360? Starting the hunt for 1st build.

[Rip-It-Up]

Well I'm finally ready to get started on a project bike. I hope I'm not jumping the gun as I don't have a bike yet, but I figured I would start a build thread on here. Figured yall could share in my search and you guys seem to be a respectful, open minded bunch on this forum. Currently I have my eyes on a titled, running, and fairly clean cb450. I'm really hoping it doesn't disapear before taxes get deposited because it's a huge steal of a deal.

Seem's that everyone around where I live either has a rocket or a Harley and I want to build something personalized and a little different from the run of the mill. Not to offend, but I'm not into pullin wheelies, stuntin it up, or buying branded overpriced costumes, So I've decided either a 450 or a 360 twin will fit the budget and my style. Call me strange but I just don't like the look of the stamped frame on the 350's and I kinda dig the way the frame wraps around the carbs on the 360's. To be honest I can't pick between one or the other (450/360) and will just have to snatch up whichever comes first. The 360's do seem to sound less rattley to me though. I'm guessing thats typical due to the different valvetrain?

As far as a backstory and inspiration on the build. I'm pretty hard set on the direction, but I'm sure some things the bike will tell me where it wants to go as the build happens. I've always been a car guy and spent my 20's working for a local engine builder, a couple speed shop's, blowing to much cash on magazines to feed my daydreaming, making weekly trips down to GIR in St Louis for test and tune, and weekends spent watching car show's on spike. My old boss at a local Corvette restoration shop I worked for probably back in like 2004 had if I remember right a Honda 400 Super Sport sitting in the front office. Me and a co-worker would stare at that thing and make comments (knowing nothing about cafe racers, and little about bikes) that if you just did this and that, that it would be a cool lookin scoot. Eventually I tripped on the cafe scene and realized what these old Honda's where capable of becoming and I've been kinda obsessed with them now.

Anyway, I have always loved the color of the project Copperhead truck from Truck's TV and the Sunset Orange Metallic (SOM) of the 4th gen Firebirds. I was watching Two Guys Garage where they where syncing the carbs on dude's 550 and thought the raw metal look he had goin would look killer with a copper colored frame. Then I stumbled on Mystic's 360 while lurking and I gotta give credit and say dude hit my vision damn near on the head! That's one wicked lookin little bike. It's going to be hard to not look like a copy cat but I'll try to mix it up a bit.

So basically the keypoints of what I'm picturing is a bare steel tank with some simple Von Dutch pinstriping on the top. Maybe some goldleaf vintage looking numbers on the sides of the tank outlined with red pinstriping to hide where the badges went.
Copper colored frame. I will have to farm out painting the frame. Can anyone ballpark me what it typically would cost to have a body shop spray a frame or if there is a powder that would match the color I'm looking for?
Some old Schwin grips with clipon's.
Wrapped CL pipes with no muffers.
Can't decide but maybe some dual sport tires to keep it looking vintage.
Pull some Hot rod Bonneville salt flat racer/aviation look into it with some tasteful speedholes. Want to speedhole and chop the balls off the levers for sure. Reminds me of my old BMX bike. On that note maybe an old bmx pedal kicker.
I want this thing to look stripped down and bare, no guages, with just a raw slightly patena'd not overdone look. You ever overbuild something only to realize it lost all it's character?

This is going to be a slow build due to limited funds and time as my wife has gone back to school as a full time student and we have 3 kid's. Also I have no workspace where we currently live. All my tools are 30 min's away setup in my Dad's garage so I'll only be able to do major work when I can travel over there, I have no access to air tools anymore. Basicaly, cost wise, everything is going to be portrayed as an e-bay $20 deal .

Look forward to posting on here and learning how to wrench on these old bikes, I hope I don't disapoint and didn't get ahead of myself starting a thread already.

 

[Sonreir]

Well... the 360 is kind of the red-headed step-child of the 1970's Hondas. That's kind of the appeal for me.
The earlier 350s had better handling and more power, despite having less displacement. That made the 360s less popular and as a result there's a lot less aftermarket options. You will likely need to fab a lot of stuff for yourself and engine mods are almost definitely DIY for the 360.

The 450, however, is a darling of the vintage Hondas and, in my opinion, the best twin available from a Japanese maker from the 1960s and 70s. It puts out a bit more power per CC than the 360 and will "do the ton" out of the box. There's tons of aftermarket options available and is popular for vintage racing (though not as popular as the 350, it seems).

 

[Rip-It-Up]

To be honest I'm probably not a good enough rider to tell the diffence in handling between the 350 and 360. :-X I am a little concerned and don't want to pick up something with recall issues though. Seems from what I've read the slippers are a little hard to source. I would hate to end up with something that will "speedhole" the motor. Can someone elaborate or post a pic of how they marked the bikes that had the recall done?

Oh, and how are the 360/450 as far as gearing on the hwy?

 

[Sonreir]

I've not ridden a 450, so I can't comment on highway speeds, but the 360 will do it (though at high RPMs).
My CJ only has 5 gears and not the CB's 6, so that could be part of the problem. At 60MPH I'm usually right around 6000 RPM.

As far as the cam tensioner goes, the old style curved around the chain whereas the new (fixed) style curved away. The consequence of having the tensioner curve toward the chain is that if/when the chain got loose and wasn't properly tensioned, the guide would catch on the chain and Bad Things™ would ensue. I think that problem was solved right around 1976 or 1977? Anyway... there's supposed to be a stamp on the engine casing for older bikes that had the tensioner replaced during the recall period. Hopefully someone can get you more information than I can about that one.

 

[Swapmeet Louie]

As far as I am aware, 74' (first yr) 360 was the only yr produced with the crappy tensioner. the 350 doeant have the legs a 360 has stock. But if your looking for something to hotrod, a 350 is a much better choice. 360's dont like to be over rev'd very much. Cam bearings are the weekest link in those motors. And they are cast into the head.

 

[VonYinzer]

As Louie said, avoid the first year 360. Another issue with the 360 is top end oiling. They get HOT and dry at high RPMs. The 360 was a really kind of poor attempt at an upgrage on the 350 by Honda. Although I like the 360 frame 100x more, Id take a 350 motor in a heartbeat. Theyre super cheap and easy to pull more get up out of, and parts are stupid simple to find.
Some other issues with the 360 comes with future engine upgrades. Not a lot out there for ya, at least not much that wont cost ya big time or require a good bit of fab work. All in all you can build a great bike from a 360, but remember that they were made to be around town commuters. Not race bikes, and not top speed machines. Hence the 6th gear. Cruising at 45 - 60 all day, you'll never have an issue, if you get her straight first, and keep up with maintinence. Start trying to ride it hard on the highway for long stretches, or redlining her through the twisties, and you'll burn it up in no time.
The 450s are badass. Hands down one of the prettiest motors out there, and they can make gobs of useable power. Biggest problem with them is the lack of aftermarket parts. Or at least the prices of aftermarket parts. That and they are a more complicated DOHC motor. More moving parts = more things to check, and more things that can fail if you dont. Thats all good though if you take care of the motor the way you need to. The lump will last forever with proper maintenence, and care.
I can tell you that no matter what route you go, the stock suspension on on both are only slightly better than garbage. Hondas were made with just enough to get by in that respect, to keep costs low. If you want the bike to handle well at all, you'll need to put some love into the forks, and replace the rear shocks.
Another thought is (not that it matters to me personally or most here) the fact that the 450s are becoming more rare, and in turn, more valuable. Especially if its an early model. Restoring one with some easily fixable "cafe" mods may be the way to go, if you ever want to re-sell it. Remember that once you cut a bike up in anyway that cant be easily returned to stock, its cutting the worth of said bike. Unless of course you do something completely amazing with it. But thats big money...
All in all, it comes down to what YOU want really, and what your end game is. If you just want a simple "cafe" styled bike to cruise around town on and look good doing it, either bike would be fine (though the 450 would look better ), but if you want a screaming, full on custom racer thats barely discernable from a pure track bike... There are some better and easier bikes to build.

 

[Rip-It-Up]

Good info guys, thanks!

For the most part I don't intend on it being a speed demon, riding it 9/10's or anticipate modding the motor much beyond stock. Mostly just an around town cruiser with the typical pods and pipes. I do however for the time being now live 35 min's from my home turf and I don't want to fry the top end on the Hwy to meet up with the group. Now whether or not I get a hair up my arse and decide to occasionaly flog it... Well let's just say I know me. Moderation is key right? Glad to hear the tensioner was a one year deal. That reduces some of my concern and I do agree with liking the 360 frame a 100x more over the 350.

Looks as though the 450 might be winning as far as being able to cruise more comfortably with the longer leg's stock. And I agree has the better looking motor. Probably wouldn't suffer as much when riding with the sportsbike crowd either. So it's getting the plus's in it's favor from the looks of things.

 

[VonYinzer]

Youll always suffer when riding a 40yr old bike against buddies on modern sport bikes. Unless you drop a TON of coin. Speed is expensive. Hahaha...
Its one of the VERY few "bads" that you take with the numerous "goods" that come along with riding vintage.
Just be careful, and no matter what you end up with, MAINTINENCE, MANTINENCE, MATINENCE...

 

[Rip-It-Up]

In an interesting turn of event's I might go look at a running and titled XS650 next weekend if it's still around. The guy says he custom made a set of scrambler high pipes for it. It blows some smoke in the upper rev's. It might need a re-ring but he says it has decent compression "oxymoron I know", and uses a slight bit of oil. Turn signals are missing but he says still wired for them. He replaced tree's and forks with a setup from a WR200. Does $850 sound too high for this bike? It was listed at $1000 and he seems pretty firm on price.

 

[Flugtechnik]

To me, the xs650 engine is the only one prettier than a 450 engine. A running ridable 650 with title for 850 is a good price.

 

[VonYinzer]

The XS is a badass machine. That said though, hes done some goofy things to that one. The front end is all wrong. Those pipes look awful (IMO) and probobly hurt performance. I see where he was going with the "flat track" look, but he missed by a bit... Id offer $600 cash and see what he says.

 

[jackstraw650]

To me, the xs650 engine is the only one prettier than a 450 engine. A running ridable 650 with title for 850 is a good price.

1+ on this! Although I really like the Honda 450, I think the XS650 is better choice for someone in your situation. They are reliable, relatively easy to work on and, unlike the 450 or 360 for that matter, there are a ton of quality after market parts available. With the larger displacement you get more power and torque which makes for easier cruising. You can turn an XS into just about anything you can think of, from cafe to chopper. In case you haven't figured it out, I have one!

 

[Rip-It-Up]

I agree the XS does seem to be a good candidate from what I have gathered. I decided to pass on this one though. Seemed to be as previously mentioned "Alot of jacked up stuff done". After some quick math it would not have been worth putting this one back to acceptable condition when others can be had cheaper with better bones.

I did find another lead on a 360t running with title for $650. Problem is now I have my heart set on a 450 and picking up a 360 would be like settling. I'm in turmoil with myself. I may not have the time to go look at it this week regardless.

Seems like there was 5 or 6 450's close by for sale and now that I'm serious they're all in hiding. The search continues.

 

[Sonreir]

For what it's worth, the 450s seem to be appreciating in value more than the 360s as well. That said, $650 for a running and titled bike is a pretty darn good deal (at least around here). Check compression if you decide to take a look at it.

Don't worry about settling though. The 360 has tons of character is still a really fun bike to ride.

 

[Flugtechnik]

Your bike will find you.

 

[Rip-It-Up]

Well it's been a week of grabbing at short straws. I had a 450 nailed down for $200 with title! Was stuck at work and it was just outside of reach to go look at in an hour lunch. A half hour before I get off work the phone rings and it's the seller telling me he just got done selling it. So I went from super excited to super depressed in 2.5 seconds. The kicker was I had the previous day off on vacation and if he advertised it even a half day sooner I woulda nabbed it. I just keep getting beaten to the punch. I wouldn't have thought buying a classic honda was a competitive sport around here.

This morning I wake up and look at Craigs to find a BOGO for a 600 and a 350 or 450 for $600. The seller didn't know what it was. I went and looked at it after work with fingers crossed for a 450 and found it to be neither it was actually a cb360 with some hackerific rat bobbering done to it. Shocks where replaced with tube stock, fenders, lights, seat, right perch and switches where mia. Tank lightly dented and ugly inside, Front tubes stretched out for that chopper look, no front brake line or master. But he offered to sell it for $100 and it ran, albeit roughly. The 600 I really didn't have any interest in however probably coulda nabbed for $450 with a title.

Probably would make a good parts bike for the motor and trans and I would buy it if It had a title. Anybody have a titled frame or parts bike for sale in IL? I scoured all over online and not a titled frame or basketcase to be found. Am I crazy for not buying this titleless basket case for that cheap?