Aftermarket vintage sportbike engines, why aren't there any?

jag767

jag767

Over 1,000 Posts
I was having a spirited discussion with a friend of mine, and we were debating the finer points of the motorcycle aftermarket. Essentially, the whole thing boiled down to 1 question. If you want to build a brand new vtwin bike, you can literally buy everything brand new, including the motor, with several vendor options available. Why does the same not exist for vintage sport bike motors?

How is it that no one has come along and produced ANY other options, other than having to buy an old motor and rebuild it? Using a cb750 sohc for this example, if I were to buy an original, rebuild and refinish it, by the time I bring it brand to "new", with the time any money put in, if an aftermarket option to buy one new "off the shelf" was priced right, would that not be a valid option to many people?

I ask this part out of curiousity, part because if there is enough demand, I'd like to see how to make something like this actually happen. My thought is one candidate for something like this would be an inline 4 design, perhaps offering a small and larger displacement option (350-400, and 750?).

Let's hear some opinions!
 
because if you are building a custom v-twin bike, with brand new motor and everything, the motor is going to be an H-D twin, or an aftermarket replacement for the H-D twin. If you want a crate engine for a vintage sport bike, there are to many different brands with too many different bikes, with too many different mounting points and dimensions and misc bullshit that would need be custom built by the person installing it.
Why not buy a slightly used modern sportbike engine , and then build the bike around that instead?
Interesting thought though.
 
Gonna have to disagree. Just because it's a v twin does not mean it's a harley, or going into a harley. Additionally, there are many frames available aftermarket for metric motors. Im not saying to do this for "replacement" motors for old bikes. I am saying to have new motors that can go with new frames, and all new components. Buying a used sport bike motor completely defeats to purpose of have a new source of vintage motors available. A perfect example is if I build a 56 chevy I can either put a brand new 350 lt1 that's carb'd, or a new fuel injected ls series motor. And the beautiful part is everyone can make their own choice.
 
You could buy a brand new Norton Commando engine from Steve Maney, a Weslake, 8 valve twin ranging from 500cc to 850cc from Nourish Engineering, a Manx Norton engine from wither Molnar or Summerfield engineering. Just noticed you mentioned a v-twin, which you can buy a Vincent unit. All of the above have been around for some time from a necessity of keeping race bikes going and are race proven, so reliability is probably better than it's ever been.

There's others kicking around, but a Maney or Nourish engine is a good engine. You can have them in de-tuned form or go for a race version.

These are pre-unit construction engines and there are 5 and 6 speed gearboxes, with kick starts from Mick Hemmings amongst others.

Buy either a new Seeley or Manx replica frame and your on your way
 
Ahhh, my bad i missed understood the question.
Then i guess the only problem with that is that the cost of tooling to build brand new vintage bike engines greatly outweights the demand form these engines.
if they don't sell many of each engine, then the cost of each engine will rise in consequence.
how many people do you think would drop 5'000$ on a new vintage engine for a 3'000$ bike when they could find a used one for a small fraction of that?
i think with these engines, the best bet is to provide all new internals, because the cases should be good for a while, and maybe some cylinder liners.
just my 2 cents
 
farmer92 said:
Ahhh, my bad i missed understood the question.
Then i guess the only problem with that is that the cost of tooling to build brand new vintage bike engines greatly outweights the demand form these engines.
if they don't sell many of each engine, then the cost of each engine will rise in consequence.
how many people do you think would drop 5'000$ on a new vintage engine for a 3'000$ bike when they could find a used one for a small fraction of that?
i think with these engines, the best bet is to provide all new internals, because the cases should be good for a while, and maybe some cylinder liners.
just my 2 cents
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Let me go by personal experience. First of all its very interesting me you went with the ballpark of 5k, because that price is the area I would consider competitive. On my 350f motor( although the pricing is probably similar for all in line 4s) In parts alone I spent 1500 (cam, valves, springs, all of it), then another bit to have it decked and bored. Then theres the time. Porting the head, getting the gaskets off, cleaning everything, measuring, reassembly, paint..... I easily have 20 hours or more in it. As everyone else on here, my time has value as well. Then there the fact that even all done, it is still a 40 year old motor, and as with anything 40 years old, shit can go wrong and parts are sparce. If you told me for 5k I could pick up a crate motor that's 350-400cc, all new, has a warranty, a 6 speed gearbox, maybe some modernized internals, and there are parts from the manufacturer easily available new for when needed, i'd beg for someone to take my money.
 
UK Mark said:
You could buy a brand new Norton Commando engine from Steve Maney, a Weslake, 8 valve twin ranging from 500cc to 850cc from Nourish Engineering, a Manx Norton engine from wither Molnar or Summerfield engineering. Just noticed you mentioned a v-twin, which you can buy a Vincent unit. All of the above have been around for some time from a necessity of keeping race bikes going and are race proven, so reliability is probably better than it's ever been.

There's others kicking around, but a Maney or Nourish engine is a good engine. You can have them in de-tuned form or go for a race version.

These are pre-unit construction engines and there are 5 and 6 speed gearboxes, with kick starts from Mick Hemmings amongst others.

Buy either a new Seeley or Manx replica frame and your on your way
Click to expand...

Interesting, did not know of this. I will limit the discussion to inline 4s then, since apparently other parts of the market are being supplied
 
Not enough people who would spend 5K for a crate motor and part of this is it's the process people like me love. I would not buy a Lifan (for lack of a better manufacturer) CB750 motor to replace a 1970's Honda SOHC, the 40+ year old motor is available in most cases near perfect condition after some machine work.

You have to consider that millions of these were made and the parts are still flowing in decent numbers. I would focus on a bolt on package system - ignition, EFI and charging system for under a grand and then you would have my cash :eek:

Oh and a full Ti system exhaust for the CB line... wtf has the aftermarket not jumped into the builder bike seen??? Carpy? LOLOLOLOL :eek:
 
Tune-A-Fish said:
Not enough people who would spend 5K for a crate motor and part of this is it's the process people like me love. I would not buy a Lifan (for lack of a better manufacturer) CB750 motor to replace a 1970's Honda SOHC, the 40+ year old motor is available in most cases near perfect condition after some machine work.

You have to consider that millions of these were made and the parts are still flowing in decent numbers. I would focus on a bolt on package system - ignition, EFI and charging system for under a grand and then you would have my cash :eek:

Oh and a full Ti system exhaust for the CB line... wtf has the aftermarket not jumped into the builder bike seen??? Carpy? LOLOLOLOL :eek:
Click to expand...

It's a good point that many like to rebuild their motors, but couldn't the same be said for vtwin guys? And the market for new vtwins seems to be doing well just the same.

As for you point about more depth of availability for components, I think anything that provides us more options is a good thing!
 
There simply isn't a market for it. People will spend $15K on a S&S Knucklehead because of the lack of originals, and the lack of dependability. Vintage inline fours are nothing if not dependable. There is a ton of them available. You would have to sell a shit ton of engines to justify the cost to tool up to build one. You would be six figures in the hole, out of the gate.
 
There are some iconic two stroke motors that I think people would buy quality reproductions of to put into a frame/chassis they already had or built. They would be much less involved to build and still bring $$$$.
 
You can buy a banshee motor ground up from Yamaha in parts. I would do it if it were cost effective and put it in a 2016 CBR250 frame just for kicks... other 250 riders would be like "WTF was that" as it sucked the air from there helmets going by.
 
Tune-A-Fish said:
You can buy a banshee motor ground up from Yamaha in parts. I would do it if it were cost effective and put it in a 2016 CBR250 frame just for kicks... other 250 riders would be like "WTF was that" as it sucked the air from there helmets going by.
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You can go about as wild as you want with Banshee stuff. Even start with billet cases. There are lots of stock cores around for those though. I was thinking more like RZ, TZ, Kaw triples, Honda 250R, If someone made turnkey RZ500 motors guys would find things to mount them to.
 
Powderfinger said:
There are some iconic two stroke motors that I think people would buy quality reproductions of to put into a frame/chassis they already had or built. They would be much less involved to build and still bring $$$$.
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You'd still be looking at several hundred K for a press capable of die casting cases, if not up to the million dollar mark. Or several hundred K for a five axis milling center capable of machining them out of billet.
 
Molnar are just building a replica of an inline watercooled 4 that was developed by Norton in the 1950's. DOHC with reverse head, so carbs at the front. Should be around 80bhp at 14,000 rpm.

They intend to race it at the Classic TT in 2017 and it will be in a modified Manx type frame, as Norton intended.

Depends how deep your pockets are, but these will be available in a couple of years. Theres also new MV Agusta and Patton engines you could buy.
 
Powderfinger said:
You can go about as wild as you want with Banshee stuff. Even start with billet cases. There are lots of stock cores around for those though. I was thinking more like RZ, TZ, Kaw triples, Honda 250R, If someone made turnkey RZ500 motors guys would find things to mount them to.
Click to expand...

But why? There are already thousands of the old motors out there and modern versions that are better all around.
 
VonYinzer said:
But why? There are already thousands of the old motors out there and modern versions that are better all around.
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Yeah, there are any number of four stroke engines out of modern bikes that perform great and people build bikes with them. As far as multi cylinder two strokes though, it's not something the big manufacturers are going to do again. There are certainly old motors out there if you want one to rebuild but there are often issues and a diminishing supply of some parts.

I'm not saying it would be an inexpensive venture, I just think it would be possible for an aftermarket company to build a motor with modern manufacturing and I think there would be a market for it the same as the V twins.

As far as single cylinder two strokes go the European bike companies keep pushing them forward and there are plenty of them out there with great technology but if you want a twin not so much.
 
You'll never see another big displacement street bike smoker in the US. Ever. The EPA would never allow it, and if someone convinced them to do so it would cost tens of millions before the prototype ever saw the light of day. Whether it was from the factory or an aftermarket.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
VonYinzer said:
You'll never see another big displacement street bike smoker in the US. Ever. The EPA would never allow it, and if someone convinced them to do so it would cost tens of millions before the prototype ever saw the light of day. Whether it was from the factory or an aftermarket.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Same reason we don't get the nicer diesel trucks and cars... we need to boot the EPA's smog department and put some people in who understand fuel economy and performance. Ford and Chevy build 700+ HP cars WTH is a few two strokes gonna hurt.

I think KTM could have a 2-storke in 10 months without blinking an eye mang, its the computer age no rocket science here.
 
They could, but when you're getting 70 reliable (and tunable w a laptop) hp out of a 450 4-stroke that you can put 100k miles on why invest is 70 year old tech? Don't get me wrong. I love a ywo stroke. My H1 and DT250 projects prove that. But in todays world, they don't have a home outside of a racetrack or trail. Sucks, but thems the breaks. It's just too expensive to make them "legal" at the moment. Maybe that will change (I know some companies have been investing heavily in "clean" 2-stroke tech), but I don't expect to see it here in the States any time soon.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
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