Hoosier Daddy
Earache my eye...
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (Speedometer is restored)
I think you answered your own question.
I think you answered your own question.
1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (1000 miles and more)
- Thread starter swan
- Start date
620dark
You can always get it running with time or money.
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (Speedometer is restored)
Those "easycaps" guys look to be using high quality modern solid state surface mount capacitors in their replacement parts. Nice!
As far as replacing the condenser, a question that should be asked is the type of capacitor (condenser) that was originally fitted. There are two main types of capacitors (and about a million sub types), one filled with liquid (electrolyte) and one not. The electrolytic capacitors can fail over time as the electrolyte drys out / leaks out / breaks down. If you're familiar with the capacitor plague (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague), you'll understand the limitations of electrolytic capacitors. If it is a dry capacitor, then failure is somewhat more limited, mostly due to insulator breakdown because of age. Still possible and probably increasingly likely in an old bike, but less likely than with an electrolytic capacitor.
It's hard to test capacitors while they are installed in a circuit, and I imagine getting multimeter probes into the heart of darkness would be about impossible, right?
Unless the unit is about impossible to remove from the finished bike I'd run it until (if ever) the magdyno failed, and then worry about this then. Other than peace of mind and the annoyance of having to walk home or call for a pickup on the odd chance the unit should fail, I don't see a huge return on overhauling the unit.
Those "easycaps" guys look to be using high quality modern solid state surface mount capacitors in their replacement parts. Nice!
As far as replacing the condenser, a question that should be asked is the type of capacitor (condenser) that was originally fitted. There are two main types of capacitors (and about a million sub types), one filled with liquid (electrolyte) and one not. The electrolytic capacitors can fail over time as the electrolyte drys out / leaks out / breaks down. If you're familiar with the capacitor plague (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague), you'll understand the limitations of electrolytic capacitors. If it is a dry capacitor, then failure is somewhat more limited, mostly due to insulator breakdown because of age. Still possible and probably increasingly likely in an old bike, but less likely than with an electrolytic capacitor.
It's hard to test capacitors while they are installed in a circuit, and I imagine getting multimeter probes into the heart of darkness would be about impossible, right?
Unless the unit is about impossible to remove from the finished bike I'd run it until (if ever) the magdyno failed, and then worry about this then. Other than peace of mind and the annoyance of having to walk home or call for a pickup on the odd chance the unit should fail, I don't see a huge return on overhauling the unit.
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
HD, Yes and no.... The main problem with older Lucas magnetos is the failure of the condenser, particularly after they become hot. I plan to retest while warming the unit up to 120 F, running it longer and see if it still functions well.
Unclerob, welcome aboard DTT and thanks for chiming in. I am familiar with easycaps and they are one of many options I am considering. On my mag I would need to remove the existing condenser by performing a "condensectomy". Another option would be to run my original set up, buy a second armature, fit it with an easycap and have it ready if/when my original condenser fails.
Worst cb650 ever, magnetos and condensers are still mysterious alchemy to me. It is my understanding it is heat and age which breaks down the original material (wax paper) found n the OEM Lucas condensers. It is buried under wound copper and sealant in the armature so there is no easy way to access it for testing. Magnetoman on the Britbike.com forum (A university physics professor obsessed with magneto theory and function) has a lengthy and informative discourse on magnetos and condenser design, material and failure. I can't seem to grab the link but it is under BritBike Forum » Forums » Projects started by BritBike Forum Members » Members Bike Projects » Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto.
One of the many things I like about restoring old motorcycles is learning new things and problem solving. BSA and Lucas are great classrooms.
Hoosier Daddy said:
HD, Yes and no.... The main problem with older Lucas magnetos is the failure of the condenser, particularly after they become hot. I plan to retest while warming the unit up to 120 F, running it longer and see if it still functions well.
Unclerob, welcome aboard DTT and thanks for chiming in. I am familiar with easycaps and they are one of many options I am considering. On my mag I would need to remove the existing condenser by performing a "condensectomy". Another option would be to run my original set up, buy a second armature, fit it with an easycap and have it ready if/when my original condenser fails.
Worst cb650 ever, magnetos and condensers are still mysterious alchemy to me. It is my understanding it is heat and age which breaks down the original material (wax paper) found n the OEM Lucas condensers. It is buried under wound copper and sealant in the armature so there is no easy way to access it for testing. Magnetoman on the Britbike.com forum (A university physics professor obsessed with magneto theory and function) has a lengthy and informative discourse on magnetos and condenser design, material and failure. I can't seem to grab the link but it is under BritBike Forum » Forums » Projects started by BritBike Forum Members » Members Bike Projects » Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto.
One of the many things I like about restoring old motorcycles is learning new things and problem solving. BSA and Lucas are great classrooms.
620dark
You can always get it running with time or money.
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
A capacitor / condenser is in its most basic form two metal plates separated by an insulator; when a battery or other power source is connected to the plates it causes a buildup of electrons on one plate and a lack of electrons on the other plate. The closer the two plates are to each other (while still being insulated from each other) the higher the rated capacitance (measured in Farads)
Problems happen when the insulator breaks down - the electrons can then flow between the two plates and equalize the charge, which ruins the capacitor's ability to store a charge. Wax paper seems like it would be pretty vulnerable to this breakdown, but then again, your unit works, at least at room temperature.
The capacitor acts like a kind of electron "bucket"; it can store a charge and release that charge to fill in a dip in supplied power (for example, smoothing out the flow of power from an unreliable power source). It can also absorb a charge to prevent sparking (such as in how it is used in a points type ignition system). It is also used along with a diode or network of diodes to smooth out the conversion of AC power to DC power.
I could go on and on about this until everyone died of boredom, but if you have any questions about capacitor or other electronic theory, let me know. I was an EE in a past life and still do a lot of practical and theoretical electronics work.
swan said:
A capacitor / condenser is in its most basic form two metal plates separated by an insulator; when a battery or other power source is connected to the plates it causes a buildup of electrons on one plate and a lack of electrons on the other plate. The closer the two plates are to each other (while still being insulated from each other) the higher the rated capacitance (measured in Farads)
Problems happen when the insulator breaks down - the electrons can then flow between the two plates and equalize the charge, which ruins the capacitor's ability to store a charge. Wax paper seems like it would be pretty vulnerable to this breakdown, but then again, your unit works, at least at room temperature.
The capacitor acts like a kind of electron "bucket"; it can store a charge and release that charge to fill in a dip in supplied power (for example, smoothing out the flow of power from an unreliable power source). It can also absorb a charge to prevent sparking (such as in how it is used in a points type ignition system). It is also used along with a diode or network of diodes to smooth out the conversion of AC power to DC power.
I could go on and on about this until everyone died of boredom, but if you have any questions about capacitor or other electronic theory, let me know. I was an EE in a past life and still do a lot of practical and theoretical electronics work.
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
Swan, IF the magneto is working at the present, why don't you buy a condensor/points mod kit off ebay for $15 and keep it in your tool kit for if and when it breaks down.
Ride the bike in original magneto form until then.
Swan, IF the magneto is working at the present, why don't you buy a condensor/points mod kit off ebay for $15 and keep it in your tool kit for if and when it breaks down.
Ride the bike in original magneto form until then.
Attachments
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
Thanks all. Quick update, I heated my magnetos last night to 130 degrees F for 30 minutes and bench tested them for 20 minutes and they ran fine, with fat sparks at their plugs and a tiny spark at the ignition points. Hmmmmm.... What to do? The next step is to have it tested locally if I can and have it remagnetized. Both mags seem to function normally, but a test will tell me if they wire produce spark in a compressed cylinder.
Davidc, the Easyspark is not something installed on the side of the road. The magneto needs to be completely disassembled, old condenser by passed or removed, wires soldered etc.
Thanks all. Quick update, I heated my magnetos last night to 130 degrees F for 30 minutes and bench tested them for 20 minutes and they ran fine, with fat sparks at their plugs and a tiny spark at the ignition points. Hmmmmm.... What to do? The next step is to have it tested locally if I can and have it remagnetized. Both mags seem to function normally, but a test will tell me if they wire produce spark in a compressed cylinder.
Davidc, the Easyspark is not something installed on the side of the road. The magneto needs to be completely disassembled, old condenser by passed or removed, wires soldered etc.
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
Hello Swan, you are right if the condenser shorts and fails- then it's not a road side repair, but if it fails open, then you can connect onto the wire at the points.
But - given the high standard of your restoration to date - I would go with the original magneto.
I bought an over hauled unit from the net 3 years ago- and it still works fine- I don't really drive it that hard- but I have had a couple of 120mile days all over the hills- so a lot of on and off the throttle.
A magneto rarely fails without some warning- so if you are on a trip- it will probably give a few hints before stranding you.
It's not too big a job to fit a new one -once you're near your tools and puller
Good luck with the first start-up
Hello Swan, you are right if the condenser shorts and fails- then it's not a road side repair, but if it fails open, then you can connect onto the wire at the points.
But - given the high standard of your restoration to date - I would go with the original magneto.
I bought an over hauled unit from the net 3 years ago- and it still works fine- I don't really drive it that hard- but I have had a couple of 120mile days all over the hills- so a lot of on and off the throttle.
A magneto rarely fails without some warning- so if you are on a trip- it will probably give a few hints before stranding you.
It's not too big a job to fit a new one -once you're near your tools and puller
Good luck with the first start-up
Bert Jan
Holy Modification Batman
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
i've been lurking this topic since you got it in that truck.. and all i want to say is you're putting such an enormous effort into her, that it would be kind of stupid to tie ends and go riding. I know the process of building a bike has some points where you think it'll never get finished, but it will. Hang on! It will be done and you'll be happy with it and even happier if you fix all problems the right way
i've been lurking this topic since you got it in that truck.. and all i want to say is you're putting such an enormous effort into her, that it would be kind of stupid to tie ends and go riding. I know the process of building a bike has some points where you think it'll never get finished, but it will. Hang on! It will be done and you'll be happy with it and even happier if you fix all problems the right way
crazypj
Split personality, I fake being smart
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
I found a lot of them wear the platform they sit on and need a shim made so it can be fully tightened down (can you still buy the shims?
Of course, I haven't done one for at least 25 yrs although I do remember it was a 350 Ariel which has chain drive so you don't need to worry about gear mesh ;D
teazer said:
I found a lot of them wear the platform they sit on and need a shim made so it can be fully tightened down (can you still buy the shims?
Of course, I haven't done one for at least 25 yrs although I do remember it was a 350 Ariel which has chain drive so you don't need to worry about gear mesh ;D
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
Good point. I had forgotten about shims to get the correct gear tooth depth of engagement. I'd be surprised if they were not still available and it's always possible to machine the seating face flat.
The big problems I recall on K2F were broken commutators (Slip ring), demagnetization and timing on the cams. Face cam on a single is easy to time, but on a K2F I spent hours fine grinding the ring cam to get both sides to fire at exactly the same time. It used to be reasonably easy to get them magnetized but I doubt there are as many people with magetizers or Gowlers any more.
In a way it's a shame that the magdyno is operational. If it was DOA it wouldn't be hard to convert to an ALTON 12v system and slip an electronic trigger inside the mag and hide a coil somewhere.
Good point. I had forgotten about shims to get the correct gear tooth depth of engagement. I'd be surprised if they were not still available and it's always possible to machine the seating face flat.
The big problems I recall on K2F were broken commutators (Slip ring), demagnetization and timing on the cams. Face cam on a single is easy to time, but on a K2F I spent hours fine grinding the ring cam to get both sides to fire at exactly the same time. It used to be reasonably easy to get them magnetized but I doubt there are as many people with magetizers or Gowlers any more.
In a way it's a shame that the magdyno is operational. If it was DOA it wouldn't be hard to convert to an ALTON 12v system and slip an electronic trigger inside the mag and hide a coil somewhere.
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
if the straps are tight they stay in place with no fretting, you usually find worn parts when you find loose straps,and you can make up some shims with s/s if needed..... hard to not run a mag/dnyo if you want lights as they actually work fine if in good condition, but if you need killer lights for night riding they are not too bright! if you install a new modern capacitor and a good rewound armature it should last another fifty years. there are no commutators in a magneto (so no growlers needed ) and slip rings do not break by themselves they usually are grooved because people install brushes that are too hard of a material which then cause them to wear into the slip ring and the armatures ground point. even though most magnets(alnico) are not 100 percent saturated they still work for most machines providing a good spark, it is normally the old original foil and wax capacitors or secondary windings that fail. there are still plenty of magneto magnetizers around since many mags are still in use in general aviation plus the guys working on brit bikes . i agree with teazer on the cam ring vs the cam plate...sometimes difficult to get symmetrical timing with the cam ring even after using all the tricks in the book! ..bad thing about most but not all electronic igntions is you need a fully charged battery to work. i have a self generating electronic mag/dyno on my absaf engine that does not need a battery but can not remember the name at the moment.......
joe
if the straps are tight they stay in place with no fretting, you usually find worn parts when you find loose straps,and you can make up some shims with s/s if needed..... hard to not run a mag/dnyo if you want lights as they actually work fine if in good condition, but if you need killer lights for night riding they are not too bright! if you install a new modern capacitor and a good rewound armature it should last another fifty years. there are no commutators in a magneto (so no growlers needed ) and slip rings do not break by themselves they usually are grooved because people install brushes that are too hard of a material which then cause them to wear into the slip ring and the armatures ground point. even though most magnets(alnico) are not 100 percent saturated they still work for most machines providing a good spark, it is normally the old original foil and wax capacitors or secondary windings that fail. there are still plenty of magneto magnetizers around since many mags are still in use in general aviation plus the guys working on brit bikes . i agree with teazer on the cam ring vs the cam plate...sometimes difficult to get symmetrical timing with the cam ring even after using all the tricks in the book! ..bad thing about most but not all electronic igntions is you need a fully charged battery to work. i have a self generating electronic mag/dyno on my absaf engine that does not need a battery but can not remember the name at the moment.......
joe
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
on the condensor swan i have a capacitor tester and i heat the cap as i test it and all original type lucas even nos fail when they become hot. it is a good idea to replace the armature and the capacitor as a set for a few reasons....best capaictor is a kizer capacitor the same fellow who produces the podtronics,doug wood and i have not had a failure yet some of the small caps are ok for a short while but then fail...if you want i have them for both mag/dyno and n1 which would be the correct race mag for the g/s ..
hope to see you on the road this year,stop in when you come up to the cities..
joe
on the condensor swan i have a capacitor tester and i heat the cap as i test it and all original type lucas even nos fail when they become hot. it is a good idea to replace the armature and the capacitor as a set for a few reasons....best capaictor is a kizer capacitor the same fellow who produces the podtronics,doug wood and i have not had a failure yet some of the small caps are ok for a short while but then fail...if you want i have them for both mag/dyno and n1 which would be the correct race mag for the g/s ..
hope to see you on the road this year,stop in when you come up to the cities..
joe
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
That's what happens when you make a reply short, details get mixed up. Growler and commutator for the Dynamo part of the magdyno. Slip rings are the appropriate term for the K2F and they break when people strip them and are not careful or they forget those pesky screws - what do they call them - Grounding screws? Slip rings on a K2F do tend to end up with grooves in them as the brushes leave the brass strip and dig into the phenolic resin or bakalite ring.
The problem I found on my late model DB32GS IIRC (it was in 73 or 74...) was that the magdyno base and the platform had fretted in the past and were no longer dead flat or smooth so it tended to move a little. You are righ Joe that the strap has to be tight. What a thirties (twenties ?) way of retaining parts.
On My T100 I removed the dynamo and fitted an alternator inside a set of alternator primary cases. I also fitted a one piece crank and later model clutch but who's counting.
I should see if I can dig up any pics of those old bikes.
That's what happens when you make a reply short, details get mixed up. Growler and commutator for the Dynamo part of the magdyno. Slip rings are the appropriate term for the K2F and they break when people strip them and are not careful or they forget those pesky screws - what do they call them - Grounding screws? Slip rings on a K2F do tend to end up with grooves in them as the brushes leave the brass strip and dig into the phenolic resin or bakalite ring.
The problem I found on my late model DB32GS IIRC (it was in 73 or 74...) was that the magdyno base and the platform had fretted in the past and were no longer dead flat or smooth so it tended to move a little. You are righ Joe that the strap has to be tight. What a thirties (twenties ?) way of retaining parts.
On My T100 I removed the dynamo and fitted an alternator inside a set of alternator primary cases. I also fitted a one piece crank and later model clutch but who's counting.
I should see if I can dig up any pics of those old bikes.
Hoosier Daddy
Earache my eye...
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
Ahhh the memories this place stirs up.... Back when I went to school we were tought how with a working unit on the bench, but rarely utilized one out in the field. Rebuilt plenty of Starters or Alternatorsv in my day... Then within the next decade, you didn't rebuild anymore, just replaced them. :
Ahhh the memories this place stirs up.... Back when I went to school we were tought how with a working unit on the bench, but rarely utilized one out in the field. Rebuilt plenty of Starters or Alternatorsv in my day... Then within the next decade, you didn't rebuild anymore, just replaced them. :
Re: 1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star restoration (We have ignition...)
yea people try to remove the armature before removing the safety(grounding) screws or brushes and break the slip ring....i repair them by machining the broken side off and leaving a step and then installing a round piece of micarta cut with a hole saw and held on by pressed fit and epoxy. new ones retail for 65 plus dollars so i repair them when i have time and parts.......if was not for people like most of us nothing would be repaired anymore in the throw away society we live in today.
yea people try to remove the armature before removing the safety(grounding) screws or brushes and break the slip ring....i repair them by machining the broken side off and leaving a step and then installing a round piece of micarta cut with a hole saw and held on by pressed fit and epoxy. new ones retail for 65 plus dollars so i repair them when i have time and parts.......if was not for people like most of us nothing would be repaired anymore in the throw away society we live in today.
