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Author Topic: Neutral availabilty limited  (Read 1062 times)

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Neutral availabilty limited
« on: Jul 25, 2016, 13:39:00 »
Hi

When riding the CB500/4, I'm only able to shift to neutral when the gears are a a specific place. It's always been a normal thing to maybe roll the bike an inche to get in to neutral, but ever since I filled the oil (was very low), I've literally have to roll the bike for a long distance to get it to neutral. I'm not sure what the oil has to do with it, other than it lubes the tranny.

To compensate, when I'm about to stop, I'll pull the clutch and lightly pull up from 1st until it pops to neutral. Only good if I have plenty of distance to stop, otherwise I'm holding the clutch in for long NYC stoplights.

I have very limited wrenching time for forensics, so I thought I'd see if someone here can help me decide what to tackle first. Plus she's my sole means of transportation right now, so I need to limit down-time as much as possible.

Thanks all!
-Joseph
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline Sderbyshire

  • Posts: 98
  • Into Sailing, classic Triumph cars and motorbikes.
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #1 on: Jul 25, 2016, 14:47:04 »
It's no help but I have a similar issue on my cb360

Has done it since i bought the bike half restored ( half bodged!)

Steve

Offline coyote13

  • Posts: 1136
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #2 on: Jul 25, 2016, 16:09:40 »
Was neutral easier to find before you added oil, and what oil did you add?
Half the fun's in the get there...

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #3 on: Jul 25, 2016, 17:56:42 »
Was neutral easier to find before you added oil, and what oil did you add?

Yeah, no issue at all, and was VERY low before I added a pint.

10w40 NS

CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #4 on: Jul 25, 2016, 18:30:35 »
It's no help but I have a similar issue on my cb360
Has done it since i bought the bike half restored ( half bodged!)
Steve

I've done a lot to her as well other than just adding oil, such as rebuild the carbies, new 4-1 open exhaust, etc. but didnt knowtice the issue until the oil. Could be something else I did recently...

Note, I don't have a rattle from a loose tooth. She don't grind. All gears change fine. No false neutrals. Any ideas? Maybe clutch not fully disengaging? I dunno :/
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline xb33bsa

  • Posts: 7727
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #5 on: Jul 25, 2016, 18:45:19 »
i would venture to say its the clutch dragging very slightly this will absolutely make it more difcult to neutralize motivation once stopped and engine running
let me guess it runs a little ruff so you have it idling a little high as well ? hmmm only compounds the issue
it is possible but i have not got first hand onnit,it is possible that damage commenced upon  low oil by either a little extra heat and or both the lower lube level
its time to pull the clutchpak and flat glass the plates for warpage or granite slab, that is observe how a plate plants down if its got a little air gaps and light ,wants to be a rocker just layin there then you learned shit
thats all

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #6 on: Jul 25, 2016, 19:25:16 »
i would venture to say its the clutch dragging very slightly this will absolutely make it more difcult to neutralize motivation once stopped and engine running
let me guess it runs a little ruff so you have it idling a little high as well ? hmmm only compounds the issue
it is possible but i have not got first hand onnit,it is possible that damage commenced upon  low oil by either a little extra heat and or both the lower lube level
its time to pull the clutchpak and flat glass the plates for warpage or granite slab, that is observe how a plate plants down if its got a little air gaps and light ,wants to be a rocker just layin there then you learned shit
thats all

Idle speed right, but I know what ya mean.

Agreed, checking for chips/warping/wear is the forensics that needs to be done for sure, I'm hoping for some diagnosis theories based on my symptoms. I haven't done my homework on exactly the mechanics of how the clutch disengages to neutral. I'm on it.

Could it be an issue with oil pressure? I do have a VERY light leak in my oil pan gasket.
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline xb33bsa

  • Posts: 7727
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #7 on: Jul 26, 2016, 08:48:52 »
its not oil pressure  ::
that was a diagnosis and not a theory
you dont need the clutch to change gears or to find nuetral
you can shift through the gears up and down without the clutch as long as you are moving down the road
the gears in the transmission are never disengaged the gears all of them are always fully meshed
the only engaging that happens is the dogs on the sides of the gears
with the clutch dragging slightly and the bike stopped but running finding nuetral is a chore because the dogs want to stay engaged,you put pressure on the shifter and finally they jump out of engagement but instead of staying in nuetral they continue to move and slot right in to 2nd gear engagement
you are better off finding nuetral when going down the road by NOT USING THE CLUTCH but it takes a careful touch
finding nuetral is almost always easiest when rolling up to a light by being in second gear and gently tap the lever down just as you roll off the throttle a tiny bit, this unloads the dogs, dont use the clutch for this. it is not needed. the clutch has nothing to do with changing gears ,in that it makes no physical change to the gearbox all it does is make it easier for the clumsy to fumble through the gears,all it does is relax the spinning loads the same thing can be accomplished by matching rpm's to road speeds just liker a trucker ,truckers never use the clutch to change gears when normally motivating down the road
just do it,pull the clutch down and service it, check for non flat plates and for frictions glazed over and hard
but first also
is your clutch slipping when pulling a hard load ?if it has been slipping you should be aware of it already though
if you know somebody with a bead blaster the steel plates can be nicely de-glazed
the frictions should not be glazed over and hard like metal ,you should almost be able to dig a thumbnail into the friction ,
the factory service manual has the srevivce checks for thickness and whatnot of the clutch plates
have one on hand or order one now ,a clutch cover gasket that is..
fix the goddam leak under your engine for christ sakes you dont want oil on the rear tire do you ? in the meantime you can wedge a disposable diaper up under there to soak the oil ,that is how i fixed my bsa leak
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2016, 08:54:52 by xb33bsa »

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #8 on: Jul 26, 2016, 19:13:39 »
- its not oil pressure  ::
- just do it,pull the clutch down and service it, check for non flat plates and for frictions glazed over and hard but first also ...
- is your clutch slipping when pulling a hard load ?
- fix the goddam leak under your engine for christ sakes...

Thanks for the description xb33bsa!

I didn't think it was oil pressure, but I'm baffled on how adding oil could cause this.

Clutch doesn't slip.

I'll just do it, I have a service manual I'll take a look at. Thanks
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline coyote13

  • Posts: 1136
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #9 on: Jul 26, 2016, 20:26:11 »
I was thinking clutch slippage could be causing this but was corrected by XB (as usual!)

The reason I asked about oil is because the clutches in these old Hondas are sensitive to certain additives which are commonly found in conventional modern motor oils.  My CB750 uses the same oil in engine and gear case so I assumed yours was the same
Half the fun's in the get there...