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Author Topic: Neutral availabilty limited  (Read 1168 times)

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Neutral availabilty limited
« on: Jul 25, 2016, 13:39:00 »
Hi

When riding the CB500/4, I'm only able to shift to neutral when the gears are a a specific place. It's always been a normal thing to maybe roll the bike an inche to get in to neutral, but ever since I filled the oil (was very low), I've literally have to roll the bike for a long distance to get it to neutral. I'm not sure what the oil has to do with it, other than it lubes the tranny.

To compensate, when I'm about to stop, I'll pull the clutch and lightly pull up from 1st until it pops to neutral. Only good if I have plenty of distance to stop, otherwise I'm holding the clutch in for long NYC stoplights.

I have very limited wrenching time for forensics, so I thought I'd see if someone here can help me decide what to tackle first. Plus she's my sole means of transportation right now, so I need to limit down-time as much as possible.

Thanks all!
-Joseph
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline Sderbyshire

  • Posts: 98
  • Into Sailing, classic Triumph cars and motorbikes.
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #1 on: Jul 25, 2016, 14:47:04 »
It's no help but I have a similar issue on my cb360

Has done it since i bought the bike half restored ( half bodged!)

Steve

Offline coyote13

  • Posts: 1151
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #2 on: Jul 25, 2016, 16:09:40 »
Was neutral easier to find before you added oil, and what oil did you add?
Half the fun's in the get there...

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #3 on: Jul 25, 2016, 17:56:42 »
Was neutral easier to find before you added oil, and what oil did you add?

Yeah, no issue at all, and was VERY low before I added a pint.

10w40 NS

CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #4 on: Jul 25, 2016, 18:30:35 »
It's no help but I have a similar issue on my cb360
Has done it since i bought the bike half restored ( half bodged!)
Steve

I've done a lot to her as well other than just adding oil, such as rebuild the carbies, new 4-1 open exhaust, etc. but didnt knowtice the issue until the oil. Could be something else I did recently...

Note, I don't have a rattle from a loose tooth. She don't grind. All gears change fine. No false neutrals. Any ideas? Maybe clutch not fully disengaging? I dunno :/
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline xb33bsa

  • Posts: 7727
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #5 on: Jul 25, 2016, 18:45:19 »
i would venture to say its the clutch dragging very slightly this will absolutely make it more difcult to neutralize motivation once stopped and engine running
let me guess it runs a little ruff so you have it idling a little high as well ? hmmm only compounds the issue
it is possible but i have not got first hand onnit,it is possible that damage commenced upon  low oil by either a little extra heat and or both the lower lube level
its time to pull the clutchpak and flat glass the plates for warpage or granite slab, that is observe how a plate plants down if its got a little air gaps and light ,wants to be a rocker just layin there then you learned shit
thats all

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #6 on: Jul 25, 2016, 19:25:16 »
i would venture to say its the clutch dragging very slightly this will absolutely make it more difcult to neutralize motivation once stopped and engine running
let me guess it runs a little ruff so you have it idling a little high as well ? hmmm only compounds the issue
it is possible but i have not got first hand onnit,it is possible that damage commenced upon  low oil by either a little extra heat and or both the lower lube level
its time to pull the clutchpak and flat glass the plates for warpage or granite slab, that is observe how a plate plants down if its got a little air gaps and light ,wants to be a rocker just layin there then you learned shit
thats all

Idle speed right, but I know what ya mean.

Agreed, checking for chips/warping/wear is the forensics that needs to be done for sure, I'm hoping for some diagnosis theories based on my symptoms. I haven't done my homework on exactly the mechanics of how the clutch disengages to neutral. I'm on it.

Could it be an issue with oil pressure? I do have a VERY light leak in my oil pan gasket.
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline xb33bsa

  • Posts: 7727
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #7 on: Jul 26, 2016, 08:48:52 »
its not oil pressure  ::
that was a diagnosis and not a theory
you dont need the clutch to change gears or to find nuetral
you can shift through the gears up and down without the clutch as long as you are moving down the road
the gears in the transmission are never disengaged the gears all of them are always fully meshed
the only engaging that happens is the dogs on the sides of the gears
with the clutch dragging slightly and the bike stopped but running finding nuetral is a chore because the dogs want to stay engaged,you put pressure on the shifter and finally they jump out of engagement but instead of staying in nuetral they continue to move and slot right in to 2nd gear engagement
you are better off finding nuetral when going down the road by NOT USING THE CLUTCH but it takes a careful touch
finding nuetral is almost always easiest when rolling up to a light by being in second gear and gently tap the lever down just as you roll off the throttle a tiny bit, this unloads the dogs, dont use the clutch for this. it is not needed. the clutch has nothing to do with changing gears ,in that it makes no physical change to the gearbox all it does is make it easier for the clumsy to fumble through the gears,all it does is relax the spinning loads the same thing can be accomplished by matching rpm's to road speeds just liker a trucker ,truckers never use the clutch to change gears when normally motivating down the road
just do it,pull the clutch down and service it, check for non flat plates and for frictions glazed over and hard
but first also
is your clutch slipping when pulling a hard load ?if it has been slipping you should be aware of it already though
if you know somebody with a bead blaster the steel plates can be nicely de-glazed
the frictions should not be glazed over and hard like metal ,you should almost be able to dig a thumbnail into the friction ,
the factory service manual has the srevivce checks for thickness and whatnot of the clutch plates
have one on hand or order one now ,a clutch cover gasket that is..
fix the goddam leak under your engine for christ sakes you dont want oil on the rear tire do you ? in the meantime you can wedge a disposable diaper up under there to soak the oil ,that is how i fixed my bsa leak
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2016, 08:54:52 by xb33bsa »

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #8 on: Jul 26, 2016, 19:13:39 »
- its not oil pressure  ::
- just do it,pull the clutch down and service it, check for non flat plates and for frictions glazed over and hard but first also ...
- is your clutch slipping when pulling a hard load ?
- fix the goddam leak under your engine for christ sakes...

Thanks for the description xb33bsa!

I didn't think it was oil pressure, but I'm baffled on how adding oil could cause this.

Clutch doesn't slip.

I'll just do it, I have a service manual I'll take a look at. Thanks
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline coyote13

  • Posts: 1151
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #9 on: Jul 26, 2016, 20:26:11 »
I was thinking clutch slippage could be causing this but was corrected by XB (as usual!)

The reason I asked about oil is because the clutches in these old Hondas are sensitive to certain additives which are commonly found in conventional modern motor oils.  My CB750 uses the same oil in engine and gear case so I assumed yours was the same
Half the fun's in the get there...

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #10 on: Jul 27, 2016, 18:49:25 »
I was thinking clutch slippage could be causing this but was corrected by XB (as usual!)

The reason I asked about oil is because the clutches in these old Hondas are sensitive to certain additives which are commonly found in conventional modern motor oils.  My CB750 uses the same oil in engine and gear case so I assumed yours was the same

Actually, in riding today, I did have slippage twice... When up shifting, it would drop down to the lower gear :/
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline xb33bsa

  • Posts: 7727
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #11 on: Jul 27, 2016, 21:12:48 »
Actually, in riding today, I did have slippage twice... When up shifting, it would drop down to the lower gear :/
clutch slippage will not cause it to drop a gear
 goddammit  >:( :) reading comprehenshun do you not have any ?
 once again THE CLUTCH HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL FUNCTION OF THE GEARBOX OR SHIFTING GEARS

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #12 on: Jul 27, 2016, 21:18:59 »
Whoa man. No one said it did, just mentioned it was slipping today, was asked.


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CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline xb33bsa

  • Posts: 7727
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #13 on: Jul 27, 2016, 23:37:05 »
Whoa man. No one said it did, just mentioned it was slipping today, was asked.


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hey at least you aint got me on ignore yet  ;D
but please realize this stuff is not opinion either it is well known fact written in stone
you cannot relate the clutch with the gearbox , it is literally impossible for the clutch to effect the gearbox in any manner whatsoever
the only thing that the clutch does is engage and disengage the engine from the input of rotating power to the transmission/gearbox, it cannot do anything else
a person can say well my clutch is dragging so i cant shift
but the fact is you dont need the clutch at all to shift

Offline xb33bsa

  • Posts: 7727
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #14 on: Jul 27, 2016, 23:48:09 »
a fail proof method to find if your clutch is slipping
after the bike is warmed up and has some miles get the thing in 4th gear and ready at a good rpm like 4k below redline,fat p-art of the power, then nail the throttle wide open and aplly the rear brake medium hard at the same time and watch the tach... although you should be able to hear and feel it
pulling a hill works good to but you need to be in the fat power and at the same time try to hold it back with the brakes front brake works well but i hesitate to recomend it to novices like yourself
if the clutch is slipping it will maybe rev higher without gaining speed or just stay at that rpm while loosing speed
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2016, 23:50:38 by xb33bsa »

Offline jpmobius

  • DTT BOTM WINNER
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Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #15 on: Jul 27, 2016, 23:59:27 »
i would venture to say its the clutch dragging very slightly this will absolutely make it more difcult to neutralize motivation once stopped and engine running
let me guess it runs a little ruff so you have it idling a little high as well ? hmmm only compounds the issue
it is possible but i have not got first hand onnit,it is possible that damage commenced upon  low oil by either a little extra heat and or both the lower lube level
its time to pull the clutchpak and flat glass the plates for warpage or granite slab, that is observe how a plate plants down if its got a little air gaps and light ,wants to be a rocker just layin there then you learned shit
thats all

Good advice.  This is your problem.  If the clutch drags at all you will go from first to second to first to second and skip right past neutral every time you try to find it.  As xb says, if you unload the driveline you should easily be able to click into neutral, but if you do not already realize this, it will be hard to explain.  Adding oil to a low all the time bike will swell the dry-ish clutch plates causing it to drag more than before, greatly increasing the trouble.  And/or, you may have gotten it hot either from use/abuse or lack of oil and the plates are warped - it takes very little.  Take it apart, flatten the steel plates and correctly adjust all the bits that engage the clutch.  If that does not work replace all the friction (non steel) plates or glass bead them as xb suggests.  If you do that, run them over a glass plate with some sandpaper on it to check them for flat as well.  All the parts must be flat beyond what you can see with the naked eye (well, at least if you are not sure what you are looking at).  A sheet of #400 sandpaper wet on a sheet of new glass should scratch the entire surface leaving no bare spots with one stroke.  Get all the plates to pass this test and your problem will be gone.
« Last Edit: Jul 28, 2016, 00:19:51 by jpmobius »
Mobius


On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

1973 RD350 Yamaha build  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=66498.0

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #16 on: Jul 31, 2016, 23:49:57 »
Thanks all for the advice. Plate warp is what I'll be looking for. I'll be done with my other daily next week, and ready to lay her up. Be back soon with what I find. Thx!
CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber

Offline Joseph New York

  • Posts: 90
Re: Neutral availabilty limited
« Reply #17 on: Jun 30, 2017, 19:59:26 »
Guys it's been a very long time since I've ridden the 500. The last time I rode it, it stopped switching gears entirely, which was the last straw to completely rebuild the bike from top to bottom. I literally rode her hard daily year round for 5 years and she deserves a makeover.

This post was regarding the clutch issues, so if you guys don't mind me bringing a year old post back to life, ill share the current clutch conditions.

I did a mirror test on the plates with a feeler gauge, and will try jpmobius sandpaper test this weekend. The plates really seemed flat overall but seems to have some irregular wear. Friction plate fingers are all scraped up, and inner clutch has a deep gash. The inner and outer baskets have notching but you can't feel em. Inner notches worse than outer (not shown)

Here are some pics:



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CB(500/4|650|750|750/DOHC)
Norton Atlas
Suzuki Savage bobber