DO THE TON

Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Projects => Specials => Topic started by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 09, 2012, 11:35:06

Title: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 09, 2012, 11:35:06
Thought I'd post up my latest project(s).
My pair of KZ400's.

First pic is of the Dr. Jekyll bike. Plans are to keep this one basically stock
except for the 440 with a milled head, round slide carbs,440 forks (flipped caliper).

Second pic is of the second go around for this bike.
It was first built a couple of years ago with the engine that's now in the other bike.
It was has 36mm forks, KZ550 swing arm, dual disk brakes and 2.15(wm3?) rear rim.
(120 rear/100 front)
Still have to reinstall the quarter fairing,seat, rear sets, aluminum
fenders and non stock gauges.
Need to modify the upper shock mounts and redo the tail.

Over on the KZ400 site someone claimed to make 55 h.p. with a bored out 440.
I think I can do better then that, stock being 40h.p. at the crank.
I've already acquired some n.o.s. Wiseco pistons to use.
Going to back cut the transmission also.


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 24, 2012, 23:31:04
Got a few things done to Mr. Hyde this weekend.

First removed the tail and old battery box,will be using a ballistic battery mounted in the tail.

Second, moved the upper shock mounts for two reasons,
    1, shocks to be used are longer
    2, KZ550 swing arm is wider than the original
But.....the down tubes are to wide so I'll have to put them back behind and up against the frame.
Will be only be gaining an inch or so in distance between mounts, but should work out better for ride height and clearence.

And 3, fired up the lathe made a rear axle spacer.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 28, 2012, 18:18:03
Started tearing down the engine for Mr. Hyde today.
Everything looks good, now to see about taking some weight off the rotating assembly.
And bore the block,back cut the trans....


        ...but first the head needs some attention.....
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 28, 2012, 18:21:44
I have some new carb boots for the vm34s,look a little bigger then the original.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 28, 2012, 18:26:07
Found something out about the rods also.
I knew the bearings and pins were the same,excluding the turbo pin at 16mm.
The 440 rod is about 1/4 in. longer.

(Correction...bearings and pins are the same as the KZ650/750 4s.)


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 06, 2012, 13:25:20
Not much to report.
Finished tearing down the engine and sent the head the machine shop to be milled.
Soaked the head and cases in Pine Sol over night.
They needed a little scrubbing , but  all deposits were softened up for easy removal.
I think with a little agetation or movement of fluid such as a pump it will work better.
Might have to replace the solvent in the parts washers with Pine Sol. 8)

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Shermanator86 on Aug 20, 2012, 16:00:14
I have some new carb boots for the vm34s,look a little bigger then the original.

Looks like you got a nice start man.

Just something for thought, on the original head on my bike the previous owner had over tightened the screws on the carb boots and actually busted up the threading and surrounding boss. Don't know how easy that is to do but to prevent it from happening with my new one I just made some studs out of some bolts I just cut the heads off.
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd208/colesherman86/kz400/320812_662206611131_65000676_33372918_2028582744_n.jpg)

I'll be watching this thread for sure though, I know ever since I read the thread on that guys race bike over on the twin owners forum I've wanted to throw some money at my motor like that to.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 21, 2012, 00:09:57
What gave you the idea I have trouble with intake bolts?
The big carb boots are on purpose.
They are for vm34s Mikunis which are a round slide carb not the stock bs36 Mikunis.
Along with the port that is going to be bigger,but relocated 3/16 in. horizontally and 3/16 in. vertical.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 21, 2012, 00:57:56
Also while I was home this weekend I picked up my head
Had it milled just enough to remove the lip the factory leaves.
This takes off 3 cc from the chamber.
I measured the head on the other bike that I had already had milled before(33 cc) vs. a stock(36 cc) vs. a early 400 head (34 cc).
Along with 1 cc for removal of the base gasket and using 1194.
Will bring the piston to zero deck height.
And a static compression ratio of about 10.6/1 from the factory 9.2/1.
If the factory rating is correct then my math should be close.

   221.5+27/27=9.2.    27-4=23.   221.5+23/23=10.63

You can see the line I scribed on another heads combustion chamber for reference.

But,I am not using stock pistons.
The pistons are from an old Wiseco big bore kit for the 400.
Same bore as the 440 with a dome like the early 400s.
Listed at 10/1 on the paperwork, on my application it'll be 11.8/1. ;D
And if that's not enough I have other option yet.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 21, 2012, 01:06:08
And one last thing, stock crank weighs 15 lbs. 5.2 oz..
Mine weighs 12 lbs. 4.0 oz. so far with a couple more or so to come off.
Here is a pic of the crank as pulled from stock  engine.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: teazer on Aug 21, 2012, 02:31:19
Interesting project.  Are  you sure about those 34mm carbs?  That's a big carb for smallish 4 stroke cylinder.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Shermanator86 on Aug 21, 2012, 08:40:11
What gave you the idea I have trouble with intake bolts?
The big carb boots are on purpose.
They are for vm34s Mikunis which are a round slide carb not the stock bs36 Mikunis.
Along with the port that is going to be bigger,but relocated 3/16 in. horizontally and 3/16 in. vertical.

Wasn't saying you would have any problems, just stating what happened with mine.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 22, 2012, 16:24:01
Yes I'm sure about those carbs.
Stock the power peaks at 8500, Mr. Hyde will peak at 10000.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 22, 2012, 17:02:35
Wasn't saying you would have any problems, just stating what happened with mine.

Sorry about sounding a little harsh.
Did you use the little trick I learned the hard way years ago?
That is leave a nut on the bolt to help clean up the cut so you can get a nut on said bolt.
But by all rights when inserting a bolt/stud into aluminum we should be using anti seize.
And how many of us have used anti seize on carb boots?  I know I have'nt.

On a side note about head milling and pistons for the 400,use the Wiseco KZ650 piston with the above mentioned milling will net you :65x62,411cc,10.45/1( early head ) and 9.65/1( late head )
With the 440 use the Wiseco KZ750/4 piston with the above milling will net you :69x62,463cc,9.3/1.
The valve pockets are not at the same angle but will work with the stock cam.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Shermanator86 on Aug 23, 2012, 08:45:12
Sorry about sounding a little harsh.
Did you use the little trick I learned the hard way years ago?
That is leave a nut on the bolt to help clean up the cut so you can get a nut on said bolt.
But by all rights when inserting a bolt/stud into aluminum we should be using anti seize.
And how many of us have used anti seize on carb boots?  I know I have'nt.

On a side note about head milling and pistons for the 400,use the Wiseco KZ650 piston with the above mentioned milling will net you :65x62,411cc,10/1
With the 440 use the Wiseco KZ750/4 piston with the above milling will net you :69x62,463cc,9.3/1.
The valve pockets are not at the same angle but will work with the stock cam.

No worries, I wish I had thought about using a nut on the end of the bolt. I just ended up hitting the end with a file to clean it up.

How much porting are you planning on doing to the intake side of the head? I've heard that there is a lot to be gained with these engines getting them to breath a little better.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 23, 2012, 16:44:27
The 440(and late 400) head is actually really good for stock or slightly modified engines.
The ports have just about the same crossection area as the early KZ1000, (73 - 80).
And the valves are the same size as the late KZ1000(81 - 2002), which are bigger than the early .
What I am building is not going to be fun to ride stop light to stop light, pretty much to the limit.
There are some things that can be done and I'll show them later.
A person will have to be carefull because some places that could use a little 'improving' are thin walled in the casting.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: teazer on Aug 23, 2012, 17:46:28
Yes I'm sure about those carbs.
Stock the power peaks at 8500, Mr. Hyde will peak at 10000.

62mm stroke, 10,000 Revs mean piston speed just over 4,000, so that's possible if rings are thin enough, but pushing things as you said.  Gas velocity through the carbs is 252 to 280 depending on how large you go on the bore.  300 is a nice number for that which equate to 32mm carbs.

It's doable but may be a little short of low to mid range.  It'll be interesting for sure.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 16, 2012, 23:17:25
I haven't had much time to work on the crank lately.
But it's a little lighter now,down from 15lbs. 5.2oz. to 11lbs. 8oz.
Still have a little polishing to do on the crank and the rods are next.
After that off to be shot peened etc..
Also the forged pistons are matched and only 2 grams heavier the stock.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 08, 2012, 03:00:05
Here is pic what's been done to crank.
And a pic of the carbs I'm taking off.
And what I'm putting back on.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: BLSully on Oct 19, 2012, 21:13:41
Nebr_Rex,

You just posted on my thread making sure I knew about the 2stroke vs 4stroke restrictor on the VM30s for my KZ400.

Your thread, while short, is exactly what I needed to read! I don't have near the skill or resources you do, but this is the direction I want to go with my motor...slight compression bump....I'm not too worried about a 10k redline, but I am curious about a couple things.

1) I know the KZ400 has a balancer due to the 180 firing... how does the lightened crank affect that? or... does it not affect the balancer as long as the crank itself is balanced (like any normal engine w/o balancers?)

2) I take it the Weisco's were a straight drop in since you said the pins are the same, and they have the same 64mm bore as the stock 400 motor?

Appreciate your documentation here... I'm sure I'll have more questions as the bikes progress through the winter.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 19, 2012, 23:23:13
z  just the balance 'factor' is changed.
     The weight I removed was on the throw side,not the counterwieght side.

2) 400 = 64* 62 ,use a KZ650 Wiseco piston @ 65mm,3 over stock 62mm
     440 = 67.5 * 62,use the KZ750 Wiseco piston @ 69mm,3 over stock 66mm

 ((Edit/When using either Wiseco pistons you can milled the head other .035 in.
            because those pistons have a shorter dome
            This will be a total of .070 in. off the head.
             Bringing the compression ratio up to roughly 10.3 with each combination.
             Milling just the original .035 will result in a 9.3 ratio.
             The valve pockets are 5 degrees off which might cause a problem with a milled
              head and high lift cam.))

The drop in pistons I have are from a discontinued Wiseco kit from eBay.
It is a drop in for the 440.

If I were you I'd do a compression check etc. first, to see what condition the engine is in.
Then if it's good leave it alone and  find another to hop up.
Because there is nothing worse than walking by a motorcycle you could be riding. 8)
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: BLSully on Oct 19, 2012, 23:41:34
Because there is nothing worse than walking by a motorcycle you could be riding. 8)

Too true. Walk by it every morning out to the truck  :-\ I just keep telling myself it'll be ready for next riding season :)
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 12, 2012, 18:16:16
Not much to report here lately.
Been to busy trucking and bought another old pickup ('78 F250 w/460).
I'm taking vacation starting the 23 for about 10 days before I lose them.
During that time I'm planing on getting the fuel injection sorted out.
Last winter when it I had it running the injector pulse was all messed up.
This lead to fouling the plugs and switching back to carbs.
I think I have it figured out, just need to compute the values of the resistors,transistors,etc....
Oh,by the way did I mention that it is transistorised electro/mechanical fuel injection, NO COMPUTER.
That means electrical switches controlling others,along with mechanical means.
No computer chips anywhere,that's the plan anyway.
I had a leaking clutch cover gasket, so I decided to do a little painting.
Here are some pics.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 19, 2012, 11:26:10
Well I forgot my vacation started on the 17th.
Planning on boring a couple of blocks sometime over the holiday.
All depends on when the owner/lead mechanic will be there after hours.
During that time I have access to their boring bar.
Will post about that later.
Today's post is about using 2 stroke carbs on a 4 stroke engine.
On Dr. Jekyll I'm temporarily running a pair of vm28s from a Yamaha.
The air bleed going to the needle jet is to large.
If you look at a 4 stroke carb there is a brass insert with a small hole like this one.


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 19, 2012, 11:33:34
I used a pilot jet from a bs34 Mikuni for a restrictor.
Drilling a .8 mm or .032/32nd in. hole to start with.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 19, 2012, 11:38:04
Next I tapped the air bleed with a no. 12nc (24 threads/in.) machine screw tap.
Threads are not a prefect match but real close.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 19, 2012, 11:45:07
For now jetting is 15 pilot and 100 mains.
So if you are fowling plugs,maybe to much air is getting thru that little hole and forcing extra fuel out.

 
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2012, 19:12:41
These were my piston options.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: teazer on Nov 28, 2012, 19:44:40
Next time just tap the mouth for standard Mikuni air jets which come in different sizes :-)


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2012, 21:00:20
Next time just tap the mouth for standard Mikuni air jets which come in different sizes :-)




Just using what I have on hand.
Maybe you could post your own thread on the subject.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2012, 21:32:00
From left to right;
 
  1)  Old Wiseco big bore KZ400 piston,listed at 10/1,12 cc dome,11.5/1 for my application, 67.5 mm (440 bore ) 223 grams

  2)  Wiseco KZ750/4,5.2 CC dome,8.3/1 with the stock 440 combustion chamber,9.3 for me,69 mm,239 grams

  3)  Old JE(?)  piston for a KZ750/4, modified/lightened skirt, 68 mm, taller dome than piston no. 1, but deeper valve reliefs, maybe 1 CC more dome volume than no. 1, my calculations come up with 11.7/1, 238 grams

  4). Unmodified version of no.3, 252 grams

I'll be using a head that is milled .035 in. and no base gasket.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2012, 21:40:51
I decided to go with the old high domes with the modified skirt.
Freshly bored and honed cylinders.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2012, 21:44:00
A mock up of what it will look like when assembled. 8)
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2012, 21:53:06
Almost have the wiring done on Dr. Jekyll.
Wiring a KZ440 engine and charging system in a KZ400 frame.
Making sure everything works with extras for the future addition of fuel injection kind of sucks.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: teazer on Nov 29, 2012, 01:25:28
Just using what I have on hand.
Maybe you could post your own thread on the subject.

I'm not being critical.  Hope my brief response didn't come across that way. :-)

We have to do that mod on almost all GT750s with stock BS40 carbs because they surge. Suzuki used to sell special air jets which of course were available from Mikuni for a whole lot less.  I have a reference to that carb at http://pinkpossum.com/GT750/carb/BS40carbs.htm

BTW, nice collection of pistons.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 29, 2012, 22:17:29
I knew the Holley tuners used removable air jets.
Didn't know about Mikuni's.
I think I need to take a harder look at the Sudco catalog.
Do you know what size thread is required?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: teazer on Nov 29, 2012, 22:55:46
Hmm.  I forgot to include that in the blog.  I'll go and measure one.

edit: I just checked and it's a 4mm x0.7mm tap which is available from any decent hardware store - mine was from our local ACE.  Air jets are used extensively in larger VM carbs.  Typically two strokes are 2.0mm or no jet and 4 strokes are much smaller.  On the Suzuki GT750 we add a replaceable air jet to the pilot air system to trim slow riding stumbles.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 30, 2012, 21:31:35
Hmm.  I forgot to include that in the blog.  I'll go and measure one.

edit: I just checked and it's a 4mm x0.7mm tap which is available from any decent hardware store - mine was from our local ACE.  Air jets are used extensively in larger VM carbs.  Typically two strokes are 2.0mm or no jet and 4 strokes are much smaller.  On the Suzuki GT750 we add a replaceable air jet to the pilot air system to trim slow riding stumbles.

Thanks for the reply,the info will be put to good use.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 01, 2013, 11:41:57
Finally got Dr. Jekyll rewired and all the stock circuits are working.
It will need to be 'refined' for a better fit at a later date,I might even get it color coded.
I'm have choosen to use the turn signal lights from a small Honda CB bike.
Was going to use them on Mr. Hyde, but they look better than the huge stock lights.
Probably end up just running a head and tail light on the evil one.
Also been messing around with getting my fuel injectors to fire.
I have visited the local Radio Shack more than the auto parts store lately.
Earlier I had it running off the pickup coils and two ignitor boxes.
Had the dwell/pulse width running from about 24 at idle to 41 at high rpm.
With some transistors and resistors soldered to a circuit board I'm getting .001 to .01
of pulse width according to the Chinese meter from harbor freight I'm using.
So the next time I'm home I'll be 'refining' my harness for a better fit.
Then the fuel pump,throttle bodies, etc. can be reinstalled and see how it runs as is.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 13, 2013, 23:40:35
Been doing a little experimenting with some circuits.
It's slow going since I have to self teach myself.
Seem I have forgotten everything I learned in high school electronics class.

First pic is of what hasn't worked so far.
Second pic shows a more complex circuit I just finished.
Testing will have to wait until next time I'm home.


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: 7aliveatlast7 on Jan 18, 2013, 11:15:24
^^^ wow...i am waaaay below your level, haha.  interested to see where this goes!
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: beezerboy on Jan 19, 2013, 04:45:59
I built up a 440 a few years ago & hung around on a 400/440 forum for a while. there was a couple guys building hot rod 440s & they were leaving the balancer off all together.... saves weight & makes RPM changes quicker so they say. just a thought if you want to get really silly.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 19, 2013, 10:15:01
^^^ wow...i am waaaay below your level, haha.  interested to see where this goes!

I am neither above or below anybody else,but sometimes I take a ride on the short bus.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 19, 2013, 10:32:14
I built up a 440 a few years ago & hung around on a 400/440 forum for a while. there was a couple guys building hot rod 440s & they were leaving the balancer off all together.... saves weight & makes RPM changes quicker so they say. just a thought if you want to get really silly.

I'm going to leave the balancers in.
I believe the balancers are there to counter the force both pistons rising and falling together.
The rotating assembly should be taken care of by the crank counter weights.
Any gain from removing them will come from freeing up the power it takes to spin the balancers.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: beezerboy on Jan 25, 2013, 05:18:38
my understanding is that the chain driven balancers cancel the fore & aft moments that the crankshaft counterweights generate at the 90/270 degree positions. the crank weights on the cheeks are supposed to cancel the pistons' moment

I'd leave them in too if I was going to drive it around very much
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 26, 2013, 22:35:16
What they say is ...
 
  At 0 & 180 the counter balancers and the counter weights on the crank are to split the balance weight to counter the rod and piston,50% & 50%.

  At 90 & 270 they are opposed each other,thus canceling each other out, the weights and balancers.

  If you have ever seen an old John Deere A, B, G, 50,60,70 etc... model tractor idle in neutral without the brake engaged.
 You'll see it will rock forward and back in sync with those 2 big pistons on that big vertical twin.
 That force is what I'm most concerned with.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Feb 17, 2013, 22:57:35
Progress has been a little slow,electronics are not my strong suite.
But I've come up with something not so complicated that just might work.
The circuit was designed for replacing the ignitor on a Kawasaki KZ series.
It's a lot simpler than the other circuits I tried copying.
Besides the GM style ignition module, there are 2 diodes and 1 resistor.
I'll be reinstalling all the injection plumbing next time I'm home.
There will be pics to follow later.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Mar 10, 2013, 11:38:26
Made some progress lately.
I used 2 GM sign. modules and received good results.
Not what I'm looking for,but closer.
Tried 2 stock Kawasaki electronic ign. IC ignitor boxes wired up the same also and it didn't work.
Maximum dwell/pulse width was 60% as shown on my meter.
At the typical 43.5 psi and 14 lb. injectors would be just under the target h.p..
Higher fuel line pressure will cover the difference.
Idle pulse width is to high.
I'm leaning to use a combination of a GM module and custom transistor circuit or use the 2 modules and an additional circuit to eliminate one 1 module circuit during idle/low rpm.
The timing will need to be rechecked before that step is taken.
Also I have a Radio Shack pulse width modulator kit to assemble to control the fuel pump.
Which in turn will be getting it's control signal from a Bosch wide band o2 sensor.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Mar 23, 2013, 19:47:29
Been side tracked lately.
Doing a tune up and some general maintenance on a 440.
Thought it would be a good way to pick up a couple extra bucks.
Might be helping someone earn a Darwin Award instead.









.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Mar 23, 2013, 19:56:20
Did pick up a parts bike.
KZ440 LTD belt drive.
Everything is there even the air box.
Brakes work,nothing bent.
Tires look good,only flat on one side,might get out a bead bag and hammer and straighten that out.
Would make a really good bike for someone but,no title or keys.



.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Qawls on Mar 23, 2013, 20:56:53
Hahaha awesome!
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Mar 30, 2013, 23:38:28
Throwing around the idea of having a third project bike.
18 in. spokes front and rear.  1.60/1.85 3.5
Stretch the  swing arm and rake the front.
Lose the fairing,seat, wiring harness and belt drive.
Add turbo to blow thru the carbs to make the NA bikes in sportsman nervous.
Use the factory carbs and air box.
Got the forged pistons just need to bore the block.
Just basically need a GT12 or similar size turbo.

.


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: BLSully on Apr 09, 2013, 00:58:16
I'd like to see that! Looks like a good base with which to start...
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Apr 13, 2013, 18:54:56
Swapped bikes with a local,said he was going to restore it.
Traded for his bobber/rat bike.
Did a little mock up to give you an idea of where I'm heading with this.





.








Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: 7aliveatlast7 on Apr 16, 2013, 19:18:30
what is that spoked rear wheel that you're going to use off of?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Apr 17, 2013, 00:31:48
3.518, aftermarket rim, 650 and up spoked wheel hub.
Offset on the sprocket is more on the bigger bikes so I'll need to make an offset counter sprocket to match.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on May 05, 2013, 15:30:25
Not much ambition with lousy weather we have had. Maybe when spring finally gets here I'll pickup the pace a little.
I have wired up a bread board with a different circuit to try.
It is copied from a KZRiders.com members site.
The actual circuit he designed and built was used to replace the stock ignitor on a GPZ550.
This is just an experiment just like the GM hei module.
I have drawn up a circuit that is a simplified version to try after that.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on May 05, 2013, 15:39:27
Have had a little time to do some ebaying.
Found a Garrett GT1541 and a TD04.
The TD04 will work for the 750 project  I have planned.
And GT15  (according to the online turbo calculators) for the 440 drag bike.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on May 27, 2013, 14:48:23
Been working on the toys of others and not mine.
Finished the dune buggy death ride and did a tune up on a young gentleman's KZ440 LTD bobber.
Sold him some brake parts so he could have front brakes.
Also I gave him a set of exhaust pipes and case guards with some hi way pegs,stuff I'll never use.
I did oil and grease my pickup and clean and rearrange the shop.
Only thing done the bikes was to solder up another circuit to try.
And some pics of what I'll try to put together next.
The modulator will be controlled by a wide band o2 sensor to then control the fuel pump.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jun 24, 2013, 00:57:43
I got tired of burning up transistors and have decided to stick with the GM hei ignition modules.
What I have done is realign the ring with two lobes I made that is tack welded to the end of the cam.
This works with the variable reluctor/pickup coil epoxied in the rocker box to send a signal to one of the hei modules.
Having the cam advanced one tooth (+ 10 from stock) now gives me 60% duty cycle max for the injectors.
Flowing enough fuel for 42 h.p. ,which is close to the 40 h.p. rating of the 440.
There will be two injector circuits.
The primary will be the one triggered by the cam .
It showed 14% at idle and 29℅ at wot.
The secondary will be the spare pickup coil down on the crank not use by the ignition.
It showed 18% at idle and 30% at wot.
The primary side will always be on.
The secondary will be switched on and off by an adjustable pressure switch plumbed into the oil system.
At idle it will be off and when rpm/pressure goes up it will turn on.
Primary and secondary overlap at idle.
Since the ignition advances with rpm so will the secondary side.
The ignition counter weights will need to be lightened to slow down and smooth out both the ignition advance curve and the duty cycle growth.
What I am hoping for is 14% at idle growing to 60% at wot with help from the pressure regulator ( psi ) and wide band o2 sensor and pulse width modulator ( volume).
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 05, 2013, 19:58:53
Today I modified a bolt from the hardware store and a fitting that came with the
adjustable pressure switch.
As you can see it also has an oil pressure gauge along with the switch that will be
used to control one of the signals for the fuel injection.
All to replace the stock bolt and one wire pressure switch for the idiot light on the dash.
In the bottom pic are the counterweights with the end cut off of one to slow down the
 advance rate.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 09, 2013, 23:05:39
Got everything assembled  except for installing the tank and pulse width modulator.
As you can see both hei modules and the relay switch.
The relay turns one of the modules on and off.
It it activated by the adjustable pressure switch.
The path of the fuel starts on the left side of the tank at a barrel valve.
From there it goes thru a filter, then to the pump, the fuel rail/throttle bodies,regulator,
and back to the tank on the right side.
If this all works and can be adjusted to make the bike rideable I will permanently mount
The components and clean up the wiring and plumping.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 09, 2013, 23:10:32
More.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: GmanGS450 on Jul 09, 2013, 23:44:16
Following, this is a very inspirational build.  ;D
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: MakiMoto on Jul 10, 2013, 07:07:34
Dont know how i missed this, subscribed.

Very interesting project
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: GmanGS450 on Jul 11, 2013, 14:30:42
What are your HP estimates? I know you mentioned something about someone on the KZtwins forum hitting a good number, but is your goal to make that? Surpass that? or just get it working?
I don't know if I missed it but what kind of fuel are you planning on running, basic pump gas 87/89 or a high octane E-85/105 race gas?

Just wondering. Thanks.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jul 11, 2013, 20:45:06
Dr. Jekyll is stock except for a milled head with litely smoothed out ports..
Stock h.p. is 40 at the crank, I might regrind the cam to get 40 h.p. at the wheel.
The fuel injection is an exercise to see if it can be done, which I think is very doable.
I've also been thinking of a mechanical system,  constant flow with an electric fuel pump.
Mr. Hyde will get all the goodies to reach my goal of 60 h.p.,
high comp., polished this and that, balanced, back cut, etc....
It will run on e-85 or race gas,probably e-85 because race gas is $9 a gallon.
And let's not forget about the 440ltd ( I picked up another one this last weekend for parts ).
I'll call it Frankenstein's Monster, a drag bike with a raked front end, extended swing arm,
3.5 in. rear wheel, 10/1 comp. and 15 psi of turbo boost on e-85.

.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 08, 2013, 01:25:19
Quick update, Dr. Jekyll started and ran on it's own, but....
 Burned up one of the ign modules and still getting a little to much fuel.
My home made throttle bodies are causing a problem as the fuel is having to go around the butterfly.
On the CV carb fuel is mostly going directly under it.
So I am switching to a GPZ1100 throttle bodies with the stock peak and hold injector instead of the Bosch saturated.
Going to try some resistors here and there and slowing down the ignition advance.
I have some vacation to burn up so maybe I can make some progress.
Pics to follow also.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 10, 2013, 00:44:32
Update, resistors look to be paying off.
Put some stock carbs back on temporarily and did a little rejetting.
For your information, bare carbs, 122 dynojet main ( 130 Keihin ) and two washers,
3 1/2 turns out and still a little lean just off idle.
So it's back to Radio Shack in the morning for more resistors.
The resistor thing just might eliminate the need for an adjustable pressure switch mentioned earlier.


.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Sonreir on Aug 10, 2013, 00:48:23
Pick up a potentiometer.  Then you can adjust the resistance freely until it's correct.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 10, 2013, 01:42:33
I'll look into it, but a potentiometer might not have a useable range where is needed.
Right now I have 2 and 3 10k @ 1/8 watt resistors in series on each side of a variable reluctor.( pickup coil )


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 10, 2013, 23:35:54
Got the resistors sorted out and dwell time/pulse width goes from 6.5 to 75+.
With fuel pressure set at 30 lbs. that is enough for 48 h.p., a little more than the engine will currently produce.
And 3.5 h.p. at idle. First thing tomorrow I'll test with the peak and hold injectors.
All testing so far has been with Bosch saturated injectors.
Went to the hardware store and bought some over priced brass fittings for a fuel rail.
These different injectors have hose barbs instead of a rubber o ring.
Oh, about the jetting on the Keihin carbs the 130s leaned out above 7000 r.p.m. and a spot  just above idle.
I'm thinking 140s.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 12, 2013, 22:05:26
Peak and hold injectors will not work with this configuration.
They got warm and didn't produce the range needed.
So I had to Fab up a fuel rail for the Bosch injectors.
First pic shows a GPZ1100 fuel injection rack similar to the one used and the difference in the injector bottoms.
Plastic had to be trimmed and the o ring swamped for the one for the rack.
Other pics show the finished product with a different routing of the fuel lines.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 12, 2013, 22:07:01
And the rest.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: teazer on Aug 13, 2013, 01:34:53
This is nuts.  I love it.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 14, 2013, 01:19:13
Mounted the electronics on a sheet of aluminum and rerouted some wiring.
Fired it up and did some testing with different fuel pressures and some variations of pulse width.
There are two problems I currently am dealing with. One is after reving it up and chopping the throttle it will die.
If I blip the throttle it will idle. Two is the highest it will run smoothly is 5k.
The more I twist it above 5k the more it will waiver up and down in r.p.m..
I'm thinking it's a little rich and want to increase r.p.m. then leans out and returns back to the original speed.
The reason I say this is because if I crack the throttle wide open for a split second I get some black smoke.
Also after I shut everything down for the day I realized I have only one throttle return spring on two butterflies
instead of three on four butterflies. I wasn't watching the throttle shaft for any strange movements so
nothing is confirmed yet. It is a single cable set up so movement is controled in one direction with the 
return spring limiting the other. 


.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 14, 2013, 23:45:28
Did a little experimenting today.
The high r.p.m. waiver is caused but over fueling not by the butterflies moving.
Got it dialed in for below 5k. Then reconfigured the wiring and had it loading up at low r.p.m..
But it ran great up top.The reason I think it is over fueling is I have it firing every revolution.
And I believe the automotive industry fires every other revolution. Meaning I'm doubled up on fuel.
Why I say this is because when it was running good at high r.p.m. dwell/pulse width was reading
around 33%. If you double that for 66%, take 66/80 ( where injectors are rated ) = 82.5% of 14 lbs. per hour,
14 x .825 = 11.55 lbs.per hour x 2 ( .5 lbs. per hour for 1 h.p. naturally asperated ) = 23.1 x number of injectors,
 23.1 x 2 = 46.2 h.p.. Which is about what  this engine 'should' produce. Now I just have to get both ends of
the spectrum working together. I hope this doesn't mean I have to eliminate one of the lobes on the cam ring.
By just using the sensor on the cam and removing one lobe I'll automatically cut fuel in half.
The fuel pressure my need to be raised for a good idle and the the whole r.p.m. range would have more pressure.
Leading to over fueling up top again. I would rather use both sensors and cut pulse width down and raise
 fuel pressure for better atomization.


.





.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 17, 2013, 17:53:09
Here is a little something for you to watch.
At about the 1:25 mark you can hear the r.p.m. rise and fall with the throttle held at 7k.
The only electronics for the fuel injection on the bike are the 2 pickup coils and
what is mounted on the aluminum panel. The hei module on the bottom is the only one
used during during the video. It needs more tuning/experimenting and maybe a Cartech
fmu ( fuel management unit ), they have one for naturally asperated applications.
 Vacuum is 10 in. just above idle when the needle settles down. It drops to around 5 in.
when the throttle is cracked open and up a o around 20 in. when the throttle is chopped.
But it is time to invest in a new gauge because with the bike turned off it shows almost
2 in.. As for the blue smoke, the plan is to do up another milled head with a reground cam
and a block punched out to 69mm. That should get me to around 45 h.p..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51owVjJcucw

Hope the link works,first time posting my own you tube video.

Update:
               Cured  the high r.p.m. fueling problem. Hooked up the top module backwards off the pickup coil
 with no resistors and the bottom module has 10 10k resistors on the negative side of the reluctor.
I'll try to post another video tomorrow.

.
Editted video to new youtube account.




.



Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 18, 2013, 18:09:42
I have the new video up. Still a little lean off idle.
Going to try a little more resistance and maybe some more pressure.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=znVqXg4zchU&feature

.

.


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: firebane on Aug 18, 2013, 18:25:32
I have the new video up. Still a little lean off idle.
Going to try a little more resistance and maybe some more pressure.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=znVqXg4zchU&feature

.

.

I love how it hits 9k and just takes off
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 18, 2013, 20:44:22
I love how it hits 9k and just takes off

I was slowly throttling up until around 7k and then just pinned it.
And Lord knows how accurate that old tach is, because it sounded like it achieved a higher
 r.p.m. than what the tach was showing.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 21, 2013, 20:25:59
Might have cured the off idle stumble, especially the dead spot between 3k & 4k.
I made some plastic bushings to reduce venturi size from 34mm to 29mm.
These are temporary and I'll have to make some smaller throttle bodies or
new bushings out of aluminum. They did add 1 in. of vacuum though.
But before that I dug out the modified fmu ( fuel management unit ) from
before. With it I gain about 10 p.s.I. when the throttle is pinned. I still use the
other pressure regulator to hold a base line fuel pressure. Without it the
pressure will drop to about 0 when the throttle is chopped causing the bike
to sometimes to stall. I also replaced the counter weight I cut up and the
heavier spring with stock pieces, thus speeding up the advance on ignition
and fuel curve. These all made some difference but what made the most was
adding 2 10k resistors to the top igntion module. Now the throttle can be
manipulated easily between 3k & 4k. I will need to take it for a spin tomorrow
to be sure.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 25, 2013, 22:21:21
Took it for a test ride and realized more fuel was needed because
it wouldn't pull past 5k in 1st and 4k in second. Went back and turned
up the fuel pressure by 5 lbs., it ran better with more r.p.m.. Put it
back on the lift and stared raising fuel pressure. Ending up being rich
at idle. Leading to the next step. Using a wide band o2 sensor hooked
to a pulse width modulator to control the fuel pump.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 29, 2013, 12:17:27
The wide band o2 sensor and pulse width modulator didn't live up to expectations.
The voltage signal out from the o2 sensor was not enough to run the pump past 20
p.s.i.. I am going to pull the fuel injection stuff off until I can save enough pennies to buy a
used oscilloscope, probably a Fluke series 90. That way I can see exactly when the
injectors are firing and for how long corresponding to cam and ignition timing. I will also
be going thru the top end with Wiseco KZ750 pistons and some work on the cam.
That will take displacement out to 463cc.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Aug 31, 2013, 23:46:21
Got the head back,had it milled another .030 of an in..
Pics are of the stock chamber, next milled at .030 and
then at another .030. Found a belt to fit my tool post grinder
so I can grind down some base circles on the can.
The cycle shop was busy so the block isn't bored yet.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 03, 2013, 12:01:34
Got the block and pistons back from the cycle shop.
I have made some changes to the ignition pickup.
Moved the plate out so I could put the pickup for the
injection behind it. This was changed to fire the injectors
when the  intake valve is opening at around top dead
center vs. being at bottom dead center. Firing at the
bottom of the stroke most of the fuel was injected when
the intake is closed. By moving the point when the injectors
are fired. Half the fuel is injected when the intake is open
and half when closed. Because it fired once every revolution.
Also started on grinding down the intake base circle on the
cam for this engine. That was until I about burned up the bearings.
I filled up the oil cup several times but the shaft must have
been totally dry. Disassembled the shaft and still need to clean
it up so I can finish roughing in the base circle. Then I can
dress it with a die grinder. After that it will be check by degreeing
it in the engine after the the big bore pistons and milled head
are installed. When I'm satisfied with the results I'll polish it up
with some emery cloth. The factory retarded the intake timing
several degrees compaired to other engines. If I was
going to change that, might as well advance it a few more.
Add a few more degrees of duration and .040" of cam lift. Below
are some pics comparing a stock 750 plate and modified KZ400
points ignition advancer that I was using to the new setup. That
is a 440 ignition advancer and 750 plate modified as stated above.


.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 03, 2013, 12:03:00
More pics.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 03, 2013, 12:05:50
Pics of the ' cam  grinder '.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 04, 2013, 19:17:31
The bearings for my tool post grinder won't be here till Monday.
So I did a little porting.



.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 06, 2013, 19:53:08
Bearings came in today. Bought an extra pair just in case. Problem was this is the first time I used the machine. I put oil in the cup a few times, but that wasn't enough. Bearings, felt liner, the whole housing was dry. When it acted up the first time, I tore it down, cleaned it up and made sure it was full of oil.
Thinking the roughness  would come out of it, which it did during assembly and the first bit of use. Now
with new bearings and some spares I'm ready to start up again.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 08, 2013, 19:09:28
Done grinding the cam for now. It just needs to be cleaned up to be
checked with a degree wheel. Also did my valves. This method is a
little more accurate than my old Sioux valve grinder. That thing is out
of round about .002 for .004 total. Good enough for old pushrod V8s,
but not small engines. Next is to lap the valves, since the seats are in
great shape. Then I can tear down the top end and install the other
block and Wiseco pistons. And see what the new lobe profile looks like.
And one last thing, there is a Fluke oscilloscope on the way via eBay.

Pics are of the same lobe, before and after getting dressed down on
both ramps. And an exhaust valve.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 08, 2013, 19:11:44
The valve.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 14, 2013, 00:21:06
Pics of the old pistons and the new. Head is torqued down and I stared
to degree the cam. With valve lash set at zero on the intake, valve lift is
.358 vs. .288 on the cam.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 16, 2013, 22:21:22
Cam is finished. Will post final specs tomorrow.
But valve lift is .350.
Pics of the opening ramp.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 16, 2013, 22:22:51
Pics of the closing ramp.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 18, 2013, 02:47:04
Cam timing turned out to be

 43/73, 296 dur., 105 c.l., 350 lift intake,        vs. 27/73 stock
 63/39, 282 dur., 102 c.l., 308 lift exhaust.    vs. 70/30 stock

 I still need to open up the slots on the cam gear so I can advance
the timing some more. That way the exhaust will be at 110 c.l.
like the stock setting. And the intake will be at 51/65, 97 c.l..
Which is 21 more overlap, 16 more dur., and the valve closing
5 sooner. Resulting in more cylinder pressure and better breathing
because of valve events and a 10.3/1 compression ratio.

It was time consuming to get equal cam profiles by hand. I only used
a die grinder a couple of times. Otherwise it was a file and emery cloth.
Typical procedure was to remove the rocker box, cam caps, chain, cam.
Remove some metal and reinstall everything. The check the degree
wheel pointer for t.d.c., then valve lash and set up the dial indicator.

.

.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 28, 2013, 22:53:12
The mailman dropped off a package the other day.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 05, 2013, 21:29:25
Finished with the cam. Had to trim down the right side base circle.
It had some negative valve clearance by a few thousands. Advanced
the cam one tooth (15.6 ?) ending up with these measurements at
the valve at zero lift. 

Intake      48/65 (stock 27/73)  98.5 l.s.   (113), 293 (280), .350 ( .305?)
Exhaust.  71/28 (stock 70/30) 111.5 l.s. (110), 279 (280), .308, 76 (57) overlap

Summary: intake advanced 14.5, 13 added duration, closes 8 earlier
                    exhaust advanced 1.5, overlap increased 19



Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 08, 2013, 00:42:04
Fired it up for the first time today. Ran 'alright' up top but lousy down low.
Swamped jet needles, that made an improvement. Then I noticed the head
pipes turned a blueish/purple. Checked the timing mark against the rotor
reluctor alignment. Yep, timing was little retarded. Elongated the holes in
the timing plate by about an 1/8 in. Timing looks real close. Need to
retorque the head before I can check it with a light.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 17, 2013, 18:30:27
Update:
  Welded up some duct work to run filters while I experiment
 with the relocated pickup coils. I used some of that aluminized
exhaust tubing from the auto parts store.The low carbon crap
doesn't weld for shit. Along with some rubber plumbing connectors
from the hardware store. Topped with some K/N filters for a
Triumph. It idles ok and top end sounds good. But just above idle
to about 6k is lean. Jetting is; stock 35 pilot, raise .060 in., idle mixture
screws 3 1/2 turns out and main up from 88 to a DynoJet 130.
Needle is a 2A, same taper as a 1A but starts sooner. And way
smaller then a 10A. Going to try raising the needle some more.
Thought I would throw this out there, maybe it could help someone
else running CV carbs.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 17, 2013, 18:31:26
More.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Joe Suzuki on Oct 18, 2013, 19:14:47
Be careful using hardware store rubber couplers.  They will suck in at higher rpm's, and it get's worse as things warm up and they soften.  This can suffocate you're engine and make it lean out.  If you have metal almost all the way inside it, then no worries.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 18, 2013, 22:37:34
Thank you for mentioning that. I did not take that into concideration. But I think I'll be okay.
What is not supported by metal is basically what's between the hose clamps. And the rubber
is also a 1/4 in. thick. I changed the jetting. Jet needle is now a straight shallow taper 10A.
Not an abrupt taper like the other two sizes of Keihin jet needles I have, 1A and 2A. Increased
the main to a 160 Keihin with the needle shimmed remains at .060. Idle is good and off idle
response is great. Now the top end is lean starting around 5k. Looks like I either need  a little
more taper on the needle or take the shims out and use a bigger main.


.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 20, 2013, 21:26:34
  Swapped out the needle jet from a 10A to a 1A and rode it around the lot.
Definitely lean on the bottom. Swapped in a richer 2A and still a little lean.
 I will try raising the needle again and maybe a smaller main.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 27, 2013, 18:42:45
Picked up some 145 jets to try. But that is going to be put on hold for a day or two.
I have a few 440s to rebuild over the winter and one of them showed up Friday.
This machine will also be getting rebuilt forks and a chain n sprockets.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 27, 2013, 18:48:29
Bad part about it is that the engine had a knock. So this is a reminder that you need to check
and change your oil regularly. Because they do not make some parts for these old bikes
anymore.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: danker16 on Oct 29, 2013, 01:58:55
Bad part about it is that the engine had a knock. So this is a reminder that you need to check
and change your oil regularly. Because they do not make some parts for these old bikes
anymore.


.

what part is this?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 29, 2013, 08:03:24
On the left is one of the rod bearings for the right side cylinder. On the right
is the left side bearing. The big end of the rod and the crank were both worn
down by about .005 in.. and the exhaust valve hit the piston.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 25, 2013, 00:19:15
Not much to report lately. I do have something to share.
The KZ750/4s cam sprocket bolts to the KZ440 cam.
I'll post some detailed pics later.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2013, 20:29:30
Bolting the KZ750/4 cam sprocket to the KZ440 cam can alter valve timing.
Using the different holes can result in advancing or retarding the cam. Rotation
of the sprocket is counterclockwise when mounted on the engine. The following
pics will show the different positions. The first pic is of the 440 sprocket with the
highlighted teeth showing the one closest to the top bolt hole. Then the 12th
tooth to where the timing mark is that lines up with the top of the head when
installed on the engine.  The second pic is the 750/4 sprocket. The same sprocket
is used on the intake ( round hole ) and exhaust ( one of the other holes dependent
on the model ). The different marks correspond with tooth closest to the top bolt
hole and the 12th tooth for timing alignment.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2013, 20:34:14
With the ( round ) bolt holes lined up with the 440 sprocket holes.

The cam will be advanced this much. 1 tooth is equal to 15.6 at
the crank. I'll let you do your own calculations.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2013, 20:36:12
The ( octagon ) hole is retarded this much.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2013, 20:40:39
The ( square ) hole is advanced this much.

This information is for entertainment purposes only.
I take no responsibility for any actions taken by anyone
modifying their machine.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 14, 2013, 23:59:36
  Just to let everyone know I haven't abandoned my projects. I've just been sidetracked lately.
Along with the KZ440 LTD bobber engine rebuild etc... . My cousin asked if I would look at his
sons mini sprint engine. They only got three races on their ' race preped ' r6 Yamaha. I was told
it never seemed to run right. Which turned out to be the titanium valve were shot and out of
adjustment. But on the third night out it started a nocking/squealing noise I was told. And this
is what I found, a broken tooth on the crank gear that drive the clutch basket. Looks like something
got caught between the teeth.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 15, 2013, 00:02:26
Pics of the head for that bobber.
The exhaust port.
.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 15, 2013, 00:03:48
And the intake port.
If you look at the first pic. On the valve seat from the 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock
position is some serious pitting. I had to break out the old Sioux valve seat grinder
to remove the pitting on the 45 cut. I usually get by with just grinding the valves
lapping the seats, but not this time. Then I narrowed the seat down by cutting the
bottom 60 cut.
.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 29, 2013, 14:55:56
Cousin and his kid brought me a head today for their r6 mini sprint motor.
I can understand trying to keep the cost down. So instead of buying all
new titanium valves for their old head I was going to freshen up this one.
That would include a dip in the cycle shops ultrasonic cleaner and maybe
a touchup with stones by hand on the seats. Checked an intake and exhaust
valve on no. 1 cylinder and the seat and valve looked really good. Probably
be no need to touch the seats I thought. Until I seen an intake hanging open
on no.4. Maybe they should pony up the $1100 for new valves for their old head.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 01, 2014, 21:32:38
The bobber is done, owner is picking it up this weekend. Besides the engine
I rebuilt the forks, installed the new chain and sprockets and fabricated a brake
stay bar. The 'builder of this machine' just bolted it to the frame, not allowing
for chain adjustment. Also started regrinding a cam today. It's not a KZ but
the factory color is also green.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Roc City Cafe on Jan 01, 2014, 21:35:52
that's a neat process, do you plan on any post grinding heat treatment?  I've heard the chill hardening on cast iron isn't all that deep
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Roc City Cafe on Jan 01, 2014, 21:43:09
also... why the hell isn't anyone posting on this thread?  The stuff you're doing is awesome!
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 01, 2014, 22:05:33
No idea about the lack of responses.

This cam is forged steel from a WWII era John Deere A.
Stock governed r.p.m. is rated at 975, I don't think it will
need any heat treatment.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: interceptor on Jan 03, 2014, 05:53:27
Just started reading this thread.  Wow!  This stuff blows me away.  Probably simple for you, but 90 percent of us probably don't know what the heck you just did and how you got there.  Very cool.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 03, 2014, 15:52:05
I'm just learning as I go. Just someone with only a high school education.
But I took 3 yrs. of machine shop, 3 yrs. of mechanical drafting and a semester
each of welding and electronics while I was there. The rest was learned on the
job or self taught. I'm no Einstein, just persistent. Anybody can do almost anything,
you just have to apply yourself. Get all the basics covered and then start doing
some research. When mistakes are made, then you know what not to do. Like the
old saying goes, 'experience is the best teacher'. All the greats screwed up many
times before they found the right way to accomplish their goal.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: interceptor on Jan 03, 2014, 16:01:45
Well said. 
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Roc City Cafe on Jan 08, 2014, 06:50:25
cool, it would be interesting to see you do a camshaft from scratch, maybe use O-1 and just cut it yourself, looks like you've got the setup for it
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Brodie on Jan 08, 2014, 09:06:09
also... why the hell isn't anyone posting on this thread?  The stuff you're doing is awesome!

I am watching in quite. I don't have anything valuable to input to I will just sit and learn.

Keep it up Nebr. This thread as a lot of valuable information.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 08, 2014, 09:16:52
All I'm doing is reducing the base circle. That allows me to alter the opening and closing
 points to change lobe center and duration along with lift. To machine a cam from scratch
 I would have to make the sprocket drive flange seperate then weld it together. And forget
the tach drive gear. Also my little tool post grinder would need to be replaced with a bigger
unit that would articulate with the to rotation of the lathe. That articulation would need to be
controlled by a cam master pattern to be copied onto the cam lobe. All far more complex
machinery than me just grinding material off the base circle. All I do is feed in the grinder a
few thousands of an in at a time and rotate the lathe by hand. The lathe is unplugged from
power while this is being done. On this John Deere cam I started with using a bench grinder
to get the majority of the material off. Then I take some more off with my big die grinder
followed by the tool post grinder and finally a file and emery cloth. This is because I'm taking
almost .100 in. off and my tool post grinder doesn't like taking to much off at a time.



.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 08, 2014, 09:19:10


Keep it up Nebr. This thread as a lot of valuable information.

As long as I'm able to.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: jsnabbs on Jan 09, 2014, 18:26:58
In awwwe, great project to follow
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Feb 07, 2014, 19:31:47
Bought a new toy. It doesn't look much like it did originally.
It's been cut in two and the control panel is gone. But the
pressure gauge is still hooked up and the nob for the valve
to restrict the oil flow is still there. I was problly the last one
to have a bike on it when it was in one piece about 6/7 years
ago.
Other than that been to cold to do much lately.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Erskine on Feb 08, 2014, 14:10:46
Awesome stuff :)
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Feb 24, 2014, 09:16:09
Not much to report on my projects. Been working on those mini sprint engines.
The one with the bad crank gear tooth is back together and was picked up
yesterday. Their old one is apart and parts are ordered. Bought another 2.3
engine for my ranger. Plan is to increase power output from the anemic 100
h.p. . Looking at some head work, better exhaust and bigger injectors. The 19lbs.
4 hole injector upgrade could also be used on Dr. Jekyll to cure the bikes lean problem.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Mar 04, 2014, 19:44:03
Cousin's old mini sprint engine is disassembled and parts are ordered. The aftermarket stuff
arrived within a week. The factory Yamaha parts at coming in piece meal. This engine is supposedly
 been worked on by someone in Omaha who also dynos them. The only thing I can find is a little
head work. The pics show the work 'done'. I don't think I will go to them anytime soon for any machine
work. What do you think. Weather should be getting warmer and I'll get some ambition back when it does.
I've got a 351w for the pickup to do first then back to some Kawasaki 2 cylinder madness. Here is a pic
of the bike waiting on the bike lift. And then some of that Yamaha head.


Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Mar 04, 2014, 19:45:58
More of the head.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on May 04, 2014, 21:22:26
A little update.

Cousin has both engines now. They raced last weekend and said it sounded good.
Ran hot and would not pull any r.p.m. . They swapped carbs and it ran a lot better.
Got another John Deere A can ground. Just did the intakes, added about a 1/16 in.
lift. Done some porting on some Ford 351W and 2.3 heads. Need to start working
on the Windsor short block. When I get that engine in the truck I'll give more attention
the 400/440.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jun 04, 2014, 23:29:05
Still working on the head for the 2.3 in the ranger. And the 351 for the F150.
But I did acquire this little jewel for Frankenstein's mechanical fuel injection.
It's a small Hilborn fuel pump off a drag bike.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 29, 2014, 01:00:59
Guess I'm a big time engine builder now. Cousins kid won the last race events
A-main/feature in the wingless outlaw class. They ran their primary engine all year.
That is the black one I went thru that had the broken tooth on the crank gear.
They have yet to run the silver one I freshened up.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Powderfinger on Sep 29, 2014, 09:03:36
Good work!
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 12, 2014, 08:50:00
A few pics to help explain my lack of progress on Jekyll and Hyde.

.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: 1969Honda on Nov 27, 2014, 11:54:45
You've got a sweet setup with all the tooling and time to play with different combinations. I'm subscribed and anxious to see and learn from what you accomplish.  Good luck with the fuel injection project, can't wait to see how it all turns out.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 11, 2015, 22:49:09
Updates coming soon.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: captain awesome on Sep 12, 2015, 09:17:14
Was hoping you still had something in the works. Post up when you can.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 24, 2015, 23:05:51
Finally found some pistons to fit the cylinders the cycle shop bored
to 69.5mm vs. 69mm for the KZ750 big bore Wisecos. The bore dia.
and the pin dia. are the same. The bad part is the deck height is shorter.
The block will have to be milled some, but it should work. Piston is a
flat top, shooting for an 8/1 compression ratio.
End result will be (with any luck) a turbocharged 470cc 440 with my
analog(?) fuel injection supplemented with a pair of constant flow injectors.
Here are a couple of lousy phone pics. Second pic is a stock piston with
the depth bar on a dial caliper to show the difference vs. stock.
Will post some better ones later.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Sep 25, 2015, 01:25:45
You do at least win some sort of award for the longest standing run of technical bullshit with noone calling you on it. Theres just so much going wrong here that I can't even start. Don't worry, I won't post again. Just bookmarking for entertainment.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Sep 25, 2015, 21:01:12
Here are some better pics.
Piston is Wiseco, 1.0 over for a trx250ex Honda quad.
It's the only one I could find with a 69.5 bore and 15mm pin.
I was unable to locate any info on pin height. Not until
the local cycle shop had one in for a rebore did I have
a chance to measure one. Being the stock 250ex piston
is .085 shorter than the 440 I decided to give it a try.
Turns out the Wiseco piston is shorter yet.

Stock 440     = .675
Stock 250ex = .590
Wiseco.         = .563




DohcBikes,
   Hope you resolve whatever issues are bothering you.
A lot of your posts seam to be on the negative side.
So like they say in the South, 'bless your heart'.


.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: irk miller on Sep 25, 2015, 21:11:32


DohcBikes,
   Hope you resolve whatever issues are bothering you.
A lot of your posts seam to be on the negative slide.
So like they say in the South, 'bless your heart'.
.
That's saying he's retarded. ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: doc_rot on Oct 03, 2015, 21:45:08
Is that a ceramic coating on the Wiseco piston skirt? Keep up the good work, been following your progress, very interesting.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 10, 2015, 22:11:37
Yes it is.
I've delt with only one other coated piston and that was
a Keith Black series for a 302.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: canyoncarver on Oct 20, 2015, 14:16:49
Glad this thread is moving again.  Is that an 81' GPZ 1100 I saw a few posts back?



Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 20, 2015, 21:53:43
Yes it is, one of to many projects.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 26, 2015, 23:42:22
I acquired another toy/tool a little while ago. To help me with some of my crazy ideas.
Here are a couple of pics and a video (15 min. you'll never get back) of the head for my Ranger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm_Bk1o0Chg










.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: doc_rot on Nov 28, 2015, 18:09:07
very nice. how do you polish that step in the head after making the port bigger? die grinder?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 28, 2015, 20:53:06
Several die grinders and a collection of carbide burrs, stones etc......
that I have been picked up over the years. I will not polish the intakes
First head I got greedy and blew threw one of the intakes.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 06, 2015, 23:19:16
Back to motorcycles.
Milled the block for the shorter Honda pistons.
Needed .118 in. so I just took a straight .120 off.
You can see the difference where the displacement
is cast in the bottom of the block.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: doc_rot on Dec 06, 2015, 23:29:38
will removing that much material cause the cam chain to have extra slack? will the tensioner be able to take up that much?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 06, 2015, 23:35:09
There is not a thread on DTT that makes my head hurt more than this one.

Best of luck Rex. If you're in the Lincoln area we should have a beer and not talk about motorcycles at all
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 06, 2015, 23:41:04
I thought about that. I'm stuck with the bore job the cycle shop had done.
Going to try making lemonaide out of a lemon set of sleeves. The pistons
can be resold since that model of quad is starting to show up needing engine
work. Might have to shim out a chain guide or two.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 06, 2015, 23:43:20
There is not a thread on DTT that makes my head hurt more than this one.

Best of luck Rex. If you're in the Lincoln area we should have a beer and not talk about motorcycles at all

I had more than my share at the co. Christmas party last night.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 06, 2015, 23:45:02
I had more than my share at the co. Christmas party last night.


.
pics or it didn't happen
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 06, 2015, 23:50:13
I thought about that. I'm stuck with the bore job the cycle shop had done.
Going to try making lemonaide out of a lemon set of sleeves. The pistons
can be resold since that model of quad is starting to show up needing engine
work. Might have to shim out a chain guide or two.


.
You do realize he is talking about deck height, right?

Tip of the iceberg.

Are my ears smoking yet?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 13, 2015, 09:32:48
will removing that much material cause the cam chain to have extra slack? will the tensioner be able to take up that much?

Just had another wild idea.
If this does not work I might try machining a pair of custom rods that are longer than original.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 13, 2015, 11:05:17
How does that even remotely relate to this issue?  Serious question.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: teazer on Dec 13, 2015, 11:38:12
I suspect that he means going back to stock height barrels and making longer rods to allow for the lower deck height on the Honda pistons.   

The cam chain will probably have enough adjustment in it but it will change cam timing and that will probably need to be adjusted.  Another issue is that the liners were not machined to match the block and may be too long and too large to fit in the crankcases.

And have you worked out the compression ratio?  With that flat top piston it might be a touch low.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 13, 2015, 12:23:45
Thank you. My head hurts a little less now.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 13, 2015, 21:09:53
I suspect that he means going back to stock height barrels and making longer rods to allow for the lower deck height on the Honda pistons.   

The cam chain will probably have enough adjustment in it but it will change cam timing and that will probably need to be adjusted.  Another issue is that the liners were not machined to match the block and may be too long and too large to fit in the crankcases.

And have you worked out the compression ratio?  With that flat top piston it might be a touch low.

Bingo!
Compression with a stock head [ not milled ], will be around 7.1/1 .
With a head milled .070 and no base gasket, just some 1194 for a sealant.
The compression ratio jumps up to around 8.5/1 . Which is what I'm
shooting for. As for the barrels I am thinking about an aluminum spacer
to take up the difference.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 13, 2015, 21:13:31
Thank you. My head hurts a little less now.

You might want to think about staying away from those company Christmas parties.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 13, 2015, 21:39:17
Buy a klx450 motor and be done with this epic
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 13, 2015, 22:05:18
Buy a klx450 motor and be done with this epic

No room for growth, they are pretty much maxed out from the factory.
Also I'm no fan of titanium valves and replacing them with stainless steel
and a valve spring change. Besides anyone can buy horsepower. It's more
fun making it. There is a saying that goes " if it hurts don't do it ". And
something about repeating an action and expecting a different result
questions one sanity. You might want to avoid this thread.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 13, 2015, 22:34:41
But then again, I might not.

One can never tell.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 14, 2015, 09:06:52
Well," bless your heart".
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: irk miller on Dec 14, 2015, 09:58:36
Well," bless your heart".
Ha!  I assume that means the same thing in Nebraska as it does in Georgia.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 14, 2015, 21:05:54
Not quite the same but, I'm using the Southern definition this time around.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: DohcBikes on Dec 14, 2015, 21:14:42
I don't get it.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 03, 2016, 22:35:03
  For those of you with a KZ440 having trouble jetting the stock carbs for pods. I may have a solution
for the problem. I just finished a little testing using a Dyno Jet kit for a KZ750/4. The differences
between the two are the main body casting and throttle butterfly. The 750 used a 34mm and the
440 used a 36mm. everything else interchanges. The slides on the 440 has 4 holes, 750 has 2.
Engine has the 750 pistons, reground cam, no filters and a freer flowing 2-2 exhaust. I used the
kits largest jets and lowered the jet needle one e-clip position from the directions. Stock 4 hole
slides with the holes drilled out were used first. Currently have 750 2 hole slides that have not been
drilled. It's just a little lean off idle with lowering the needle back down should be cleared up. I'll
be switching back to the stock cam and start reinstalling the fuel injection. While installing the
electronics the carbs will still be used and further tuning will be done.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 25, 2016, 00:12:24
I got the jetting real close. The idle mixture screws are 5.5 turns out. That is to far.
Two new jets are coming from jet r us. I raised the jet needle one slot from what
DynoJet calls for the 750. This is with bare carbs, no filter of any kind. Fuel injection
electronics should be sorted enough to get it running. Next up will be checking out
all the plumbing for leaks. Below is a pic of the difference in jet needles.

From left to right... Dyno Jet w/shims, stock Keihin, stock Mikuni BS34. and a pair
for vm Mikunis.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Jan 31, 2016, 21:24:00
Started to reinstall the fuel injection plumbing.
As for the final settings on the stock 36cv Keihin carbs.
Largest jet in the DynoJet kit.
Jet needle raised one slot from kit instructions.
Stock 4 hole slides drilled with bit from kit.
38 Jets R Us pilots. (35 stock)
Idle mixture screws 1 1/2 turns out. (5 1/2 w/35s, now
has much better idle and off idle response)
This is with no filters what so ever leaving plenty of
room for tuning with a good set.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Mar 16, 2016, 08:10:52
Started to reinstall the fuel injection plumbing.
As for the final settings on the stock 36cv Keihin carbs.
Largest jet in the DynoJet kit.
Jet needle raised one slot from kit instructions.
Stock 4 hole slides drilled with bit from kit.
38 Jets R Us pilots. (35 stock)
Idle mixture screws 1 1/2 turns out. (5 1/2 w/35s, now
has much better idle and off idle response)
This is with no filters what so ever leaving plenty of
room for tuning with a good set.


.

Switched to 40 pilots. My needle and seat were shot letting more fuel in.
Reinstalled the cam I reground. With the stock cam and cam timing
cranking compression was 175 on a fresh engine. With my cam it is
up to 180. I'm going to keep the carbs on this bike. The injectors do
not like being fired at 7500+ rpm on every revolution. I will have to
cut that in half by pulling my signal just off the cam. This means
another rocker box and cam to modify. Starting to work on my GPz
and two pickups and then life it's self have slow progress but I'm still
plugging away.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 27, 2016, 00:37:04
I'm still around, just got a little side tracked lately.
Here's some pics I found of Mr. Hyde from a while back.
I'm going to take a little different approach from what
was done previously.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: canyoncarver on Dec 03, 2016, 00:52:02
So.  What new direction are you going?

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: doc_rot on Dec 03, 2016, 03:20:53
So.  What new direction are you going?
+1
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 03, 2016, 20:50:31
Something to do with this.

.







Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Dec 03, 2016, 20:56:48
Need something like this, but smaller.
I have a solution rattling around in my head.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 30, 2017, 00:31:56
A little thing called life had gotten in the way of some of my projects.
I was having trouble with the stock carbs leaking when  the fuel valve was open.
If the Keihins needle and seat are the problem I may have to switch to BS34s.
So I installed my standby 29 smoothbores. I will be doing some testing on a little something
I made some months ago. I need to see if it works and how much pressure it will produce.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: doc_rot on Oct 30, 2017, 13:10:51
is that a mechanical fuel pump that runs off the cam?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Oct 30, 2017, 20:57:14
It is suppose to be. We'll see how well it works. There are a couple of dimensions I would change next time if it doesn't.
I also need to make a support bracket yet.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: kwak250 on Nov 07, 2017, 04:30:52
So a few pages back I saw you're tube crossing over the engine to both carbs with the filters in each side, does that take the place of an air box for CV carbs? And if it is, does it work good with no need to re jet the carbs? Thanks been following but not a good enough mechanic to give any other input


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Nov 08, 2017, 21:21:22
It's sort of a hybrid between an air box and individual filters.
As far as jetting goes I believe the stock jetting on a completely
stock bike will be incorrect because todays gas is not what it
was 10/15 years ago let alone when the bike was new.


.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: kwak250 on Nov 28, 2017, 22:35:40
It's sort of a hybrid between an air box and individual filters.
As far as jetting goes I believe the stock jetting on a completely
stock bike will be incorrect because todays gas is not what it
was 10/15 years ago let alone when the bike was new.


.
Thanks for the info, looks cool


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89466)
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: canyoncarver on Apr 08, 2018, 23:52:11
Still working on this?   I just re-read your whole thread.  Not that I understand a great deal of it but I'm working on it....   :)

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Apr 09, 2018, 21:42:10
Still working on it. Not making much progress lately.
First prototype fuel pump was a bust. Now I'm working
on making a scale copy of a Hilborn pump.
Going to pull the engine out of Jekyll and install it in Hyde.
It ran pretty good before with just a milled head [with no
correction for cam timing] and 29 smooth bores. It should
run real good along with the modified cam and increased
displacement. With this I'm going to test the pump.
Depending on how much volume and pressure I get will
determine the next step. That will be BS36s and the turbo
if low pressure. Or constant flow injection with a barrel valve
and extras if high pressure. First naturally aspirated then with
an unmilled head and turbo.
Also picked up an early 400 engine for Jekyll which will get
69mm pistons etc.... for about 40/45 hp at the tire.
Here is one of the gears for the pump. That end mill is .100 in.
in diameter.


.

Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Apr 15, 2018, 21:43:01
     The thing that holds the KZ400/440 back is the cam timing.
Intake lobe center is 113*. The cam needs to be advanced. KZ900/1000s are 110* from the
factory and some have degreed them down to 102*. KZ650s and KZ750s are 105* and that is
what most street racers set their bikes to 'back in the day'.Cam chain on the 400s is a roller
and a Hyvo for the 440. There are ways with both of these to advance the cam with no machine
work. First I will show the differences for the roller chain models. I have someone scheduled
for a head replacement next Sunday and I will go through the Hyvo chain models then.

  First pic shows the timing marks in the same spot. The top sprocket is from a late 400 on top
of an early 400.
  Pic 2 shows the painted teeth in the same spot. The tooth to tooth measurement is .318, as
accurate as I as I can get with my calipers.
  Three shows the difference when the sprocket is flipped over. The difference between the teeth is
now .106 or 1/3 of a tooth. One tooth is equal to  21.17 degrees so the change is 7 degrees.
  Pic 4  shows that the sprocket is advanced from the stock position, 7 degrees.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Apr 15, 2018, 21:58:45
Something I discovered was the difference between the early and late pistons.
The top of the  late piston is around .050 taller and is about 1mm taller at the dome.
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: canyoncarver on Apr 15, 2018, 22:34:45
Difference in compression ratio between the two motors?
Title: Re: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde ( a pair of KZ400s)
Post by: Nebr_Rex on Apr 15, 2018, 22:48:14
They are both listed at 9.4/1 . The late head is 2 cc bigger.
I lined these pistons up on a common wrist pin along with a stock 440
piston. The early piston is shorter than the 440. But the late piston is
taller by about the same amount. I suspect the later engines have a little
taller deck height. I did a little math and came up with 4cc more dome
which would yield a 11/1 static compression ratio.