Powder Coat or Paint Comstars?
- Thread starter jhendu21
- Start date
Bert Jan
Holy Modification Batman
Re: Re: Powder Coat or Paint Comstars?
Yeah.. And then there is Tim, constantly asking for attention... And yes, its 3 in the morning here.
Rich Ard said:I got the impression you were putting parts ib the oven for 10 minutes to pc. This thread is getting tough to follow
Yeah.. And then there is Tim, constantly asking for attention... And yes, its 3 in the morning here.
o1marc
Over 1,000 Posts
Re: Re: Powder Coat or Paint Comstars?
The cure times for powder are started when the part reaches 400*. That's why you should never go by Eastwoods directions that say to cure for 20 minutes after flow out. A thin piece of sheet metal will reach 400 in a matter of minutes while a thick forged 26" car wheel may not reach temp for 45-60 minutes. The powder will flow at around 250, if you pull that thick mass wheel 20 minutes later I can guarantee it will be undercured.Rich Ard said:I got the impression you were putting parts ib the oven for 10 minutes to pc. This thread is getting tough to follow
crazypj
Split personality, I fake being smart
o1marc said:
The wheels were not designed to be at 400 degrees at any time.
The expansion rates of various pieces may be similar but very doubtful if it it the same all over due to varying section/width/thickness
They were probably cold formed and it's very doubtful they were stress relieved after assembly
Personally, I won't do ANYTHING for a customer I wouldn't use myself
If you haven't powder coated Comstars and then used them for a reasonable time, your opinion is totally invalid (I would say minimum of 3~4,000miles under varying conditions)
I've done couple of thousand miles on my 378cc conversions,(plus at least dozen high rpm dyno runs) using carb mods I invented so I have no problems offering service to others, it isn't just an opinion thing 'may' be OK
Bert Jan said:
Personally, I would say No
o1marc
Over 1,000 Posts
Then I would make the same challenge to you, show me documentation that backs your claim that powder coating a Comstar was detrimental to it's use. I haven't ever coated one but I know it has been done many times.crazypj said:
You're recommendations from you're experience is valid. If you have never coated a Comstar then your opinion on what might happen during the coating process is just that, your opinion, which is totally invalid.
crazypj
Split personality, I fake being smart
Your completely missing the point.
It isn't the powder coat that's a potential problem, it's the heating and cooling, as I said much earlier
I know people have coated them, but people do dumb shit all the time and a massive majority don't care about safety as long as things 'look cool' :
I've been a government registered motorcycle safety inspector at various times and seen literally ten's of thousands of bikes, mostly OK but because of the numbers I've seen things that may only happen 'one in a million'
I've never 'lost' a customer because of bike fault and I've always been willing to teach people a basic safety inspection.
Your a proponent for PC, that's fine, it's what you do, but, your not a metallurgist or engineer, neither am I, but, I have seen Comstars fail, and, as I've already pointed out, the ones I've seen haven't been a sudden catastrophic failure but loosening of various parts (although I'm pretty sure if the various wobbles were ignored things could get serious real quick)
I have a couple of Comstars, but, I'm not prepared to do destruction testing on them
BTW, how do you go about smoothing out a frame for PC?
I know body filler doesn't work although there may now be some high temp fillers?
I used braze once but it took a hell of a long time to do and added a bunch of weight
PC isn't very good for a true high end 'custom finish'
Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done, after all, you could cut your head off, but, I wouldn't recommend that either
Here's a quick article
http://hooniverse.com/2011/05/10/two-wheel-tuesday-the-curse-of-the-comstars/
"Honda’s official stance on Comstars has always been that they should never be disassembled: they can only be riveted properly at the factory, and are not field-repairable. The truth is that many of the rivets that hold Comstars together have become, decades on, corroded, loose, and borderline unsafe. A number of riders have racked up many miles after drilling out the rivets and replacing them with slightly oversized, high-grade aircraft bolts and locknuts."
I've seen them repaired, aesthetically there really isn't any way to make a nut and bolt look good, although I did manage to find a full set of the 'Honda' plastic spoke covers for one guy so his late model 'reverse spoke' wheels got the real early end cap covers
It's not like they are unfixable, but, do you do it before PC or after if there is a problem?
In my opinion, having spoke flanges made and converting to a decent rim size is still best option
It isn't the powder coat that's a potential problem, it's the heating and cooling, as I said much earlier
I know people have coated them, but people do dumb shit all the time and a massive majority don't care about safety as long as things 'look cool' :
I've been a government registered motorcycle safety inspector at various times and seen literally ten's of thousands of bikes, mostly OK but because of the numbers I've seen things that may only happen 'one in a million'
I've never 'lost' a customer because of bike fault and I've always been willing to teach people a basic safety inspection.
Your a proponent for PC, that's fine, it's what you do, but, your not a metallurgist or engineer, neither am I, but, I have seen Comstars fail, and, as I've already pointed out, the ones I've seen haven't been a sudden catastrophic failure but loosening of various parts (although I'm pretty sure if the various wobbles were ignored things could get serious real quick)
I have a couple of Comstars, but, I'm not prepared to do destruction testing on them
BTW, how do you go about smoothing out a frame for PC?
I know body filler doesn't work although there may now be some high temp fillers?
I used braze once but it took a hell of a long time to do and added a bunch of weight
PC isn't very good for a true high end 'custom finish'
Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done, after all, you could cut your head off, but, I wouldn't recommend that either
Here's a quick article
http://hooniverse.com/2011/05/10/two-wheel-tuesday-the-curse-of-the-comstars/
"Honda’s official stance on Comstars has always been that they should never be disassembled: they can only be riveted properly at the factory, and are not field-repairable. The truth is that many of the rivets that hold Comstars together have become, decades on, corroded, loose, and borderline unsafe. A number of riders have racked up many miles after drilling out the rivets and replacing them with slightly oversized, high-grade aircraft bolts and locknuts."
I've seen them repaired, aesthetically there really isn't any way to make a nut and bolt look good, although I did manage to find a full set of the 'Honda' plastic spoke covers for one guy so his late model 'reverse spoke' wheels got the real early end cap covers
It's not like they are unfixable, but, do you do it before PC or after if there is a problem?
In my opinion, having spoke flanges made and converting to a decent rim size is still best option
Hoosier Daddy
Earache my eye...
Man, I wish Joe (JRK5892) was here... :
o1marc
Over 1,000 Posts
crazypj said:Your completely missing the point.
It isn't the powder coat that's a potential problem, it's the heating and cooling, as I said much earlier
I know people have coated them, but people do dumb shit all the time and a massive majority don't care about safety as long as things 'look cool' :
I've been a government registered motorcycle safety inspector at various times and seen literally ten's of thousands of bikes, mostly OK but because of the numbers I've seen things that may only happen 'one in a million'
I've never 'lost' a customer because of bike fault and I've always been willing to teach people a basic safety inspection.
Your a proponent for PC, that's fine, it's what you do, but, your not a metallurgist or engineer, neither am I, but, I have seen Comstars fail, and, as I've already pointed out, the ones I've seen haven't been a sudden catastrophic failure but loosening of various parts (although I'm pretty sure if the various wobbles were ignored things could get serious real quick)
I have a couple of Comstars, but, I'm not prepared to do destruction testing on them
BTW, how do you go about smoothing out a frame for PC?
I know body filler doesn't work although there may now be some high temp fillers?
I used braze once but it took a hell of a long time to do and added a bunch of weight
PC isn't very good for a true high end 'custom finish'
Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done, after all, you could cut your head off, but, I wouldn't recommend that either
Here's a quick article
http://hooniverse.com/2011/05/10/two-wheel-tuesday-the-curse-of-the-comstars/
"Honda’s official stance on Comstars has always been that they should never be disassembled: they can only be riveted properly at the factory, and are not field-repairable. The truth is that many of the rivets that hold Comstars together have become, decades on, corroded, loose, and borderline unsafe. A number of riders have racked up many miles after drilling out the rivets and replacing them with slightly oversized, high-grade aircraft bolts and locknuts."
I've seen them repaired, aesthetically there really isn't any way to make a nut and bolt look good, although I did manage to find a full set of the 'Honda' plastic spoke covers for one guy so his late model 'reverse spoke' wheels got the real early end cap covers
It's not like they are unfixable, but, do you do it before PC or after if there is a problem?
In my opinion, having spoke flanges made and converting to a decent rim size is still best option
PJ, your statements are based on facts not in evidence. I read between the lines of everything. Of course the factory is going to tell you to not do anything to them just to cover their ass. Doesn't mean anything detrimental can happen if you do. It's easier for them to just say no and be done with it. Their solution in the bulletin was not a fix for their poor design but to replace the wheel, with what? Another wheel that may fail.
If the wheel is fixable would you do it before coating or after there is a problem. I doubt you would fix something that isn't a problem. In this case where you know there was a problem from the factory then I would disassemble the wheel, coat it, and then do the fix. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the owners of these wheels now do not know there is an issue with them that may require fixing.
there are special metal based fillers for use with PC. Some are better than others and can handle more cure cycles. It isn't so much the high heat but the metal content to make them attract the charged powder particles.
What makes you think PC is not good for a high end custom finish?
crazypj
Split personality, I fake being smart
Hi Marc,
Didn't know about the new fillers, the problem I've found with PC on motorcycle frames is the prep needed to get frame completely smoothed out. (friend used to build high end custom Harley clones)
The finish is fine but the extra prep when you had to go over every weld with brass filler then grind it back down, add some more, smoth it off made PC custom frames a real PITA and adds a LOT to final cost
If you only see the 'production' builds with PC you would probably never notice, but, when you put the two bikes side by side, the difference is glaringly obvious (comparing a 'real' custom with an OCC bike, $50,000 cheaper than OCC and way better finish : )
I see a lot of builds on here where people have had parts PC, but, they didn't bother to remove casting marks, separation lines, weld spatter, etc. PC doesn't 'hide' things the way a coat of body filler, primer, undercoat and colour will
It isn't real PC but owners not knowing what PC can and can't do, I'm sure things have improved a lot in the last 6~7 yrs
BTW, a statement based on fact IS evidence
Didn't know about the new fillers, the problem I've found with PC on motorcycle frames is the prep needed to get frame completely smoothed out. (friend used to build high end custom Harley clones)
The finish is fine but the extra prep when you had to go over every weld with brass filler then grind it back down, add some more, smoth it off made PC custom frames a real PITA and adds a LOT to final cost
If you only see the 'production' builds with PC you would probably never notice, but, when you put the two bikes side by side, the difference is glaringly obvious (comparing a 'real' custom with an OCC bike, $50,000 cheaper than OCC and way better finish :
)I see a lot of builds on here where people have had parts PC, but, they didn't bother to remove casting marks, separation lines, weld spatter, etc. PC doesn't 'hide' things the way a coat of body filler, primer, undercoat and colour will
It isn't real PC but owners not knowing what PC can and can't do, I'm sure things have improved a lot in the last 6~7 yrs
BTW, a statement based on fact IS evidence
o1marc
Over 1,000 Posts
You would do the same prep for powder as you would for paint, the only difference is the type of filler used. we have powder primers for specific purposes(Zinc, outgassing primer,etc). Casting marks,separation lines and weld spatter are prepped just as you would for paint if that is the finish product you desire. Paint won't hide them any better than powder will without the prep. The painters will do all the casting marks,separation lines and weld spatter prep and then body fill, prime, under coat and paint for $3k-$5K instead of less than half that price if you want the same in powder. You can use any color powder for primer if you are just using it to fill scratches and whatever. Use the off the wall color you have sitting on the shelf you will probably never use again instead of the more expensive colors you may be using as top coat. Bottom line is the processes for a quality job on both is all in the prep. The price difference comes from the materials needed to finish the job, paint requiring more stages of much more expensive environmentally unfriendly products to complete what you can do with one coat of powder The powder finish can be sanded smooth and buffed just like paint for a mirror finish.crazypj said:Hi Marc,
Didn't know about the new fillers, the problem I've found with PC on motorcycle frames is the prep needed to get frame completely smoothed out. (friend used to build high end custom Harley clones)
The finish is fine but the extra prep when you had to go over every weld with brass filler then grind it back down, add some more, smoth it off made PC custom frames a real PITA and adds a LOT to final cost
If you only see the 'production' builds with PC you would probably never notice, but, when you put the two bikes side by side, the difference is glaringly obvious (comparing a 'real' custom with an OCC bike, $50,000 cheaper than OCC and way better finish :
I see a lot of builds on here where people have had parts PC, but, they didn't bother to remove casting marks, separation lines, weld spatter, etc. PC doesn't 'hide' things the way a coat of body filler, primer, undercoat and colour will
It isn't real PC but owners not knowing what PC can and can't do, I'm sure things have improved a lot in the last 6~7 yrs
BTW, a statement based on fact IS evidence
