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Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Projects => Enduro / Dirt => Topic started by: JSJamboree on Jan 25, 2017, 11:51:51

Title: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Jan 25, 2017, 11:51:51
Picked up a mostly complete MT250 about a year ago and its been sitting since.  With the RD mostly complete these days I think its finally time to get this thing road worthy.  Originally I wanted to do a CR top end swap but everything starting adding up to way to much money, so my plan is to try and keep it budget friendly.  From what I can tell at some point the motor blew a piston as its pretty knarley up top, but i drained royal purple out of the cases that looked to be in good shape so im hoping it was taken care of.  The carb was also in really good condition, almost looked new.  Already picked up a box of parts someone was getting rid of that has some pieces I needed.  This will likely become a commuter bike and i'll sell the VFR as Im ready to get the Vtec out of my life.

Goal is to have it road worthy by the first of May for the Kentucky Dakar.  Might be trying to call in a favor or two from MrE

Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JustinLonghorn on Jan 25, 2017, 11:54:18
Yep.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: advCo on Jan 25, 2017, 12:10:52
Sign me up.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Maritime on Jan 25, 2017, 13:19:56
I'll watch.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: mothgils on Jan 25, 2017, 15:28:16
I am in to help...gonna need some on my 550 !
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Jan 29, 2017, 20:16:47
In for another 2t build.


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Title: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Feb 14, 2017, 10:48:56
Got the cases split to see what needed work inside. Piston exploded so it's been sitting a couple years with no piston, figured seals would be shot at the least. Inside it looks like the two small countershaft bearings need replaced and one of the crank bearings needs replaced. Crank itself seems to be in pretty decent shape, gross but minimal slop and the lower bearing seems nice. Transmission seemed to be about perfect.

Now time to go hunting for bearings.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Maritime on Feb 14, 2017, 10:59:09
pull them all out and take them to the local bearing place, you'll save a lot of $$ or get the measurements and do the same.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Feb 14, 2017, 11:20:31
pull them all out and take them to the local bearing place, you'll save a lot of $$ or get the measurements and do the same.

I went through this with another bike, we never were able to find a bearing shop around the city.  I'll jump on a local forum and check again though, looking to save lots of $$$ for sure
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Maritime on Feb 14, 2017, 13:08:16
Shit, give me the sizes and I'll go see my local guys, priced in CAN you get 35% off and if a good deal I'll drive them across to Maine and mail them to you.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: farmer92 on Feb 14, 2017, 13:11:26
Try the bearings canada website
You can usually get free shipping with the coupon code "freeship"
It was about 20$ a bearing for my tc185 crank bearing.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Maritime on Feb 14, 2017, 13:16:15
Jordan is state side so shipping wouldn't be free for him. I just bought 2 6202SRS bearings from the local shop and they were 9.99 CAD each. that's after tax 8.61 USD. they would have been 3X that from a bike parts place. Using them to replace the cam bushings in the Virago so they don't size again.  PM me the details. I'll get you prices and I don't mind taking them to Merica to ship. I have to go pick up some stuff I ordered anyway.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Feb 15, 2017, 10:52:36
Grabbed the crank bearing from the local shop, actually wasn't any cheeper than buying Honda online but I had already driven all the way to the shop so I did it anyways. Couldn't pass up the brand (immature and inappropriate comment I know). They couldn't even order in the countershaft bearing, super special secret Honda size so I'll have to nab that online.  Need to get the case all cleaned up this weekend anyways so it'll be next week before I look to start putting the bottom end back together. Gotta order seals too.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Maritime on Feb 15, 2017, 11:04:29
German bearing brand even though made in Korea, they are good quality, I have 2 of the same brand for the Virago. Used dozens in wheels over the last few years. I wasn't able to find the other one either any cheaper than the one you found at Partzilla, seems the only source is Honda.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Feb 15, 2017, 12:41:40
Will it be Thaw ready?


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Feb 15, 2017, 13:13:38
Will it be Thaw ready?


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Thats my plan, not sure why it wouldn't be im not doing much other than getting it in proper shape for some dakar
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: mothgils on Feb 15, 2017, 13:18:32
Thats my plan, not sure why it wouldn't be im not doing much other than getting it in proper shape for some dekar
Dekar?


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Feb 15, 2017, 13:43:32
Dekar?


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Dakar
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Feb 19, 2017, 16:02:35
Dakar
Daker?


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Title: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Feb 24, 2017, 00:48:10
Anyone know where this guy goes? I found it in the stator area, looks to be broken in 1/2 so some sort of washer. I looked at a microfiche of that side but didn't see anything.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: HerrDeacon on Feb 24, 2017, 05:20:50
Transmission part - part #3 here - http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-mt250-elsinore-1975-k1-usa_model693/partslist/E++07.html#results

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-mt250-elsinore-1975-k1-usa_model693/collarcountershaf_23223358000/#.WK_6iKozqUk
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Oz350Four on Feb 24, 2017, 07:45:28
That's a little ways from home isn't it..???
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Feb 24, 2017, 10:52:54
That's a little ways from home isn't it..???

Yeah, it was pinned back behind the stator coils bracket, there is also some damage on the coils themselves.  This motor has been apart before as there are some non OEM bearings already in it.  I'm guessing the last time they put it together the little bugger got picked up by the flywheel and they didn't realize it.  I'll have to check the transmission shaft to see if its there or not. That for sure was not the microfiche location I was expecting it to be on thats for sure
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Mar 02, 2017, 00:02:13
This still going to the Thaw or did the KZ take its place? #fakenews


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: irk miller on Mar 02, 2017, 08:18:29
Nice.  Just saw this.  There's another MT in the family that has lost a bit of love.  Never thought an Elsinore, with all of the unobtanium in parts, could be a budget build.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 02, 2017, 11:07:35
This still going to the Thaw or did the KZ take its place? #fakenews

In Theory im bringing both

Nice.  Just saw this.  There's another MT in the family that has lost a bit of love.  Never thought an Elsinore, with all of the unobtanium in parts, could be a budget build.

My hope here is that the bike is mostly complete, I nabbed up a box of spare parts (which all need work) to fill in a couple gaps, and the rest i'll either figure something out or i'll go without.  I need to get out to the garage and see if that trans shaft bushing deal was extra or if its missing.  If its missing need to find a replacement for that so I can get the motor back together.  This got kinda back burnered since I picked up the KZ, but with the motor taking up my entire workbench i need to get back to it before I Start losing things.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: irk miller on Mar 02, 2017, 11:17:02
Get in touch with E.  He's done a bunch of research and has collected sources.  He might be able to help you out with sourcing and such.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: canyoncarver on Mar 02, 2017, 12:05:21
E. might also tell you of the 7th level of insanity you may have entered.  Something about unobtanium, hipsters, and gremlins..
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 02, 2017, 12:40:39
I've been talking to be E about it. I hope his bike is Satan himself, and mines fine. Hard to tell yet, it looked good, but there are already things in the wrong places.  His is also an MR which parts are generally a little more $$ than the MT


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 13, 2017, 00:19:18
Need the workbench so I decided I better get the mt motor back together. Debated just using the gasket or using sealer, decided to just use the gasket. Got the clutch side back together tonight. Stator side tomorrow. Then the workbench will be clean and I can get the carbs from the KZ apart and cleaned up.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: irk miller on Mar 13, 2017, 08:13:47
claw hammer
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JustinLonghorn on Mar 13, 2017, 08:19:10
I like hammers.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 13, 2017, 15:51:02
claw hammer

How do you expect to separate cases, pull seals, etc..... :) Its just a really nice weight hammer, great for smacking the Vessels
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 18, 2017, 01:59:12
E. might also tell you of the 7th level of insanity you may have entered.  Something about unobtanium, hipsters, and gremlins..

Dick....

Here is a pic, you can see that the motor is worse off than the last pic. Since then I've had the motor apart 2 more times fixing things. Found a few missing washers, etc.  worst off to this point is that I snapped a clutch basket bolt off using a 1/4" socket.  You told the gremlins about me, now I'm in trouble.


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Title: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 23, 2017, 10:56:23
Well, got that bugger out and went to put it all together.  Once I did that the clutch outer and clutch center were tight together (wouldn't move independently).  Went to find out that the bearing wasn't installed far enough by the PO, so there were running without the washer behind the outer.  With that, the outer stuck out to far on the shaft.  So, I had to pull the motor apart for a 4th time so I could get the bearing in the right place.  Now that im back in there again, ive decided that the shift fork on the shift drum really should be replaced, though ive told myself its fine for now, keep the budget in the past.  So, I ordered one of those and now I have to wait for it to get here before I can put it all together again and hope this time its finally correct.

This bike has daemons, but so far they have all been driven by the PO.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Maritime on Mar 23, 2017, 11:47:06
Ha POS - Previos owner syndrome
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 26, 2017, 20:44:38
Pulled the bike out of the shed today, need to get it cleaned up so I can start seeing what's what now the the motor is about sorted.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Mar 27, 2017, 23:51:21
Got the shift fork swapped over, the motor together, the clutch seems to be good now and it shifts through all the gears, only had to build it four times to get it right. On the bright side I feel pretty comfortable building dirt bike motors now, though they are a pain in the ass.

Next up, gotta get the frame cleaned up so I can get the motor in. Starting to find things I'm missing, some of which as the unobtanium previously mentioned.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Maritime on Mar 28, 2017, 08:31:16
Looks good unobtanium is shitty, I hate those parts.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: advCo on Mar 28, 2017, 18:09:27
Nice work so far. From afar it looks like a lot of the frame and suspension parts from the same year XL 250/350 should be interchangeable. There are quite a lot of parts available, so you may have some luck there.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 06, 2017, 00:00:42
Further down the rabbit hole. Took the headlight assembly off because it was rusty and bent AF. The picture of it on the bench it is sitting flush.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Apr 06, 2017, 08:38:44
Think you'll be able to straighten it?


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 06, 2017, 19:13:07
Forward? Progress?


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Apr 06, 2017, 23:25:42
One month Jordan.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 08, 2017, 13:03:06
Front end stuff cleaned up, straightened up best I could, powdered! Time to start reassembly!


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Apr 08, 2017, 20:44:45
You did all that in that little oven? That was probably 4 hours of work with that thing haha.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 08, 2017, 21:52:15
You did all that in that little oven? That was probably 4 hours of work with that thing haha.


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Yup, and with cleaning and blasting it was more like 6 hours.


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Title: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 09, 2017, 22:18:26
Forks rebuilt, set the tubes in some metal rescue for 24 hours and cleaned them up. Still some pitting but nothing going through the seals.  Fresh seals, fresh dust covers, fresh oil.  Shitty thing that brought the party to a vault was I forgot to put a spacer below the new steering bearings on the lower triple. Tried to install it on the neck but it bottomed out.  The bearing didn't survive being driven off so now I gotta get another. One more week down the drain


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Apr 09, 2017, 23:37:06
Those turned out awesome.

Is that bike 6v?


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 10, 2017, 10:07:00
Unfortinuatly it is, for now I plan to leave it like that. I'll see if I decide to throw all that out the window later


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Apr 10, 2017, 16:09:43
I've got some 6v bulbs of you need some. Not sure if they're good.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: advCo on Apr 10, 2017, 17:27:34
If you need 6v stuff I have a 6v6aH SLA  battery I bought for the XL and then converted it over to 12v.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 13, 2017, 23:59:31
If you need 6v stuff I have a 6v6aH SLA  battery I bought for the XL and then converted it over to 12v.


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Do you have any measurements of it?

Finally got feeling better, started getting the front end back together tonight. Still a lot to do but it's starting to look more like a bike again!




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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Sonreir™ on Apr 18, 2017, 11:06:18
Following along.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: advCo on Apr 20, 2017, 16:11:56
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170420/0a3a16ac392fdd620656111f34bdc36f.jpg)

4.5"H x 3.8"W x 2.25" D
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Mr.E on Apr 20, 2017, 17:29:03
Had the motor cases apart 4 times? There's still one more to go then ;)
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 20, 2017, 17:31:01
Had the motor cases apart 4 times? There's still one more to go then ;)

Don't jinx me man, I haven't tried to start it yet.  I am getting really close, hoping to try and start it this weekend.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Tifun on Apr 20, 2017, 21:52:42
I wish I could "like" the post above. Looking forward to finally seeing this thing move on it's own.


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 21, 2017, 00:13:39
Starting to look more like an old bike again,


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Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 21, 2017, 15:36:41
Following along.

Hey electrical man, do you think you could spare me a couple of minutes to look at the wiring on this.  I would love to convert this from 6v -> 12v, however the stator is running three seperate circuits.

1) Runs the points to the coils (ac)
2) Runs the headlight, includes a resistor to kill extra power (ac)
3) Runs through a rectifier into the battery and powers the tail and turns (dc).

Ive been trying to find someone that has completed the conversion but only come up empty.  The best advice I got was to run 2 and 3 in a series, then possibly into a 6v -> 12v converter like you sell.  Im not sure it would work because the #2 stator wrap seems to ground out vs going to something so that might now allow it to work.  I dont know this stuff well enough.  Do you have any idea of how you would do that or if that idea would even work?

Here is what someone else said about it.  "From the diagram, it looks like you could unplug the white/yellow (headlight) and pink (rectifier AC in #2) stator wires and connect them together, then connect the other side of the white/yellow to the black-wire bus (DC positive) and ground the pink rectifier wire to the chassis (it's possible this wire would have to be run to the grounded end of the headlight coil, which would then be lifted from chassis ground). If the resulting voltage was very low, the yellow (rectifier AC in #1) and pink wires from the stator could be reversed."

Maybe with your setup, I would hook the W/Y to the P, hook the other end of the W/Y to black like they said for power the light.  Then swap out the rectifier with your setup and run

Y (converter) to Y (stator)
R (converter) to to R/W (harness)
B (converter) to ??
B (converter) to ??
P (harness) to ??
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Sonreir™ on Apr 21, 2017, 15:55:45
We have a couple of options with this setup.

Like the XL and XR, this bike uses both AC and DC circuits. The white/yellow wire running to the front of the bike runs the headlight on AC power directly from the alternator. The ignition coil has a dedicated AC coil coming from the alternator, and everything else is getting power from the pink and yellow wires that are run though the rectifier and to the battery.

I'd leave the ignition coil alone and keep it on its own circuit.

Next step is to replace all of the bulbs and the battery with 12V versions. You should probably replace the horn as well, but if you're feeling lazy you might get a few uses out of it before it pops. :P

Here's where the options come in.

The easier option would be to replace the existing rectifier with a combined 12V R/R,ensure all your bulbs are LEDs, and then wire the headlight to run from the brown/white wire instead of the blue/white. You should get the total wattage draw low enough to make this work, but a voltmeter might be a good idea until you're sure you're not going to kill the battery.

If you want to get the full charging out of your system and still do a 12V DC conversion, you're going to need to pop open the alternator and float the ground on the white/yellow coil. You'll need a second R/R to make this work, but you shouldn't have any power issues.

And another option is to try an LED headlight bulb on the AC circuit along with a 12V AC regulator. The bulb will probably flash a bit (especially at low RPM) since LEDs only allow current to flow in one direction, but you might be able to avoid tinkering with the alternator if the power output from option one isn't cutting it.

Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: JSJamboree on Apr 21, 2017, 16:05:31
The easier option would be to replace the existing rectifier with a combined 12V R/R,ensure all your bulbs are LEDs, and then wire the headlight to run from the brown/white wire instead of the blue/white. You should get the total wattage draw low enough to make this work, but a voltmeter might be a good idea until you're sure you're not going to kill the battery.

In this method we are basically running everything on the single circuit? Just make everything LED and hope it drops enough to keep the bike charged?

If you want to get the full charging out of your system and still do a 12V DC conversion, you're going to need to pop open the alternator and float the ground on the white/yellow coil. You'll need a second R/R to make this work, but you shouldn't have any power issues.

So with this guy we are basically taking two independant circuits with two 12v reg/recs.  figuring out how to unground the current W/Y and using the ground back up to the second Reg/Reg.  Then running the powers out of both reg/recs to the battery?  Would it not work to simply run the two in circuit?  So hooking the floating ground to the reg/rec, the W/Y and the P together (creating the series), then Y to Y like always?

After she is up and running and I know everything works I will likely give this a shot.
Title: Re: MT250 Budget Build
Post by: Sonreir™ on Apr 21, 2017, 17:27:17
In this method we are basically running everything on the single circuit? Just make everything LED and hope it drops enough to keep the bike charged?

Yup.

So with this guy we are basically taking two independant circuits with two 12v reg/recs.  figuring out how to unground the current W/Y and using the ground back up to the second Reg/Reg.  Then running the powers out of both reg/recs to the battery?  Would it not work to simply run the two in circuit?  So hooking the floating ground to the reg/rec, the W/Y and the P together (creating the series), then Y to Y like always?

After she is up and running and I know everything works I will likely give this a shot.

It's possible this would work, but it might not. The problem with running the two different coils together is that if they're out of phase, the power from one might cancel out the power from the other. You can try it (it won't hurt anything), but you might be worse off than just using the first option.