Looking for a replacement lithium battery

Hi,

I got a used KZ200 Kawasaki which has been done cafe racer style. It came with the battery box removed and a small lithium battery under the seat. It's a 2.3AH one:



It seems the company that makes this no longer exists. I think the battery is a few years old now and was struggling to start the bike. The other day the bike dies while idling and the starter wouldnt start it. The kick start wouldnt start it either so I guess the battery was acting as a parasite and stealing all the ignition power. I disconnected the battery and it started right up on the kick start. The engine wouldnt rev smoothly above about 3000rpm with the battery disconnected though so I had to reconnect it once the engine was running.

Now I'm looking for a replacement battery as I think this one is done. Given that there's no battery box any more I need something else small that I can put under the seat. Any recommendations? Doesn't need to be particularly powerful as I have the kick start and I'd also like to avoid spending too much money, just need something to get mobile again.

Thanks

I think Antigravity batteries are the smallest out there...

+1 for the antigravity battery..Ive had one of the above for 2 years now and its never not started my electric starter only 250....

Love my AntiGravitys.

Just make sure the charging system is in good shape.

regarding the antigravity batteries - they are Lithium-ION batteries - which basically makes them bombs unless treated very carefully. They do not like to be overcharged (anything over 14.2). they do not like to be discharged below 11 volts. they will melt down and catch fire if you do what you did to your bike (let it discharge, then kick the bike over and attempt to ride home)

antigravity will ignore all warranty claims. no matter what. I had one DOA - never installed. no warranty because I couldn't tell them what bike I was installing it on (because it didn't have a home yet!)

I still have one in my bike, because it would be impossible to find another battery even close to the size that would still work. but I check voltage religiously, I have a little Battery Tender Voltage Checker
I have a charger specific to Lithium Ion Batteries, and I have a Rick's charging system specific to lithium ion batteries.

just beware - these are not lithium poly batteries that have their own voltage protection circuits... these are just chunks of death waiting to happen.

MiniatureNinja said:

regarding the antigravity batteries - they are Lithium-ION batteries - which basically makes them bombs unless treated very carefully. They do not like to be overcharged (anything over 14.2). they do not like to be discharged below 11 volts. they will melt down and catch fire if you do what you did to your bike (let it discharge, then kick the bike over and attempt to ride home)

antigravity will ignore all warranty claims. no matter what. I had one DOA - never installed. no warranty because I couldn't tell them what bike I was installing it on (because it didn't have a home yet!)

I still have one in my bike, because it would be impossible to find another battery even close to the size that would still work. but I check voltage religiously, I have a little Battery Tender Voltage Checker
I have a charger specific to Lithium Ion Batteries, and I have a Rick's charging system specific to lithium ion batteries.

just beware - these are not lithium poly batteries that have their own voltage protection circuits... these are just chunks of death waiting to happen.

Click to expand...

They're all LiFePO4 batteries. There is no actual Lithium Polymer batteries on the market yet. The ones listed as such are LiFePO4 packaged in a polymer casing. The differences are in whether they have the electronics to manage charge or not. Antigravity may not, which may be what happened. I don't know for certain. I have tried several brands and designs besides the Antigravity, such as Shorai and EarthX. Personally, I prefer EarthX over all others. I have had zero issues with them, and I haven't been good about tendering the one in my BMW. I have killed two Shorai LiFePO4 batteries with my chopper.

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. I ordered the anti gravity 4 cell AG-401 off Amazon and it arrived today.

I put it on my charger then saw the instructions said only use a lithium charger so I took it off. Voltage was showing over 13v so I put it on the bike. Electric starter was so much better than on the old battery. Now I want to make sure my charging system is up to maintaining it.

Clymer manual says that at 4000rpm it should show about 14.5v. it goes up but never reaches 14. But is still above 13v. Wondering if this is the charging nature of the new battery?

For the regulator test it says the resistance should be 10 times one way what it is the other. But one way I see infinite resistance, which I think is correct functioning of the diodes in the regulator rectifier

Is the charging voltage ok? Anything else I should check?

Thanks

be sure your charging system wont overvolt the battery. as I said, AG batteries DO NOT have voltage protection circuits (i've taken them apart)

EarthX is also my preferred brand and also the only one I'm willing to sell. Assembled and engineered in the USA and have internal electronics to help prevent the kind of issues we've all heard horror stories about.

The ETZ5G is their smallest offering, coming in at 3.5" x 2" x 3.4". It doesn't have the full electronic protection suite the ETX series has, though. The smallest ETX is the 12A with dimensions of 4.5" x 2.6" x 3.7"

http://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Ignition--Engine--Batteries

Hi.

So out today with the new battery. Starting on the electric start was so much better. I was teaching my girlfriend to ride and we had a lesson for about 1hr30. At the end of the lesson I went to start the bike and it was dead. No light on and wouldn't kick start. I did manage to push start it though.

Once started it ran fine. I wonder if at the end of the lesson we left the key on but engine off for 5 to 10 minutes while reviewing the lesson. Would this have been enough to discharge it to the point the lights are off? Does this mean I've now damaged my new battery? What is the minimum charging voltage I should see when reving the engine?

Thanks

Im no expert but Id think the battery would hold up to 10 to 15min with the headlight on ect easily ...I think you may have issues with the charging system and the 1 1/2 hrs lesson without sufficient charging may have dropped the battery level..or you have a loose electrical connection....use a multi meter and check the voltage of the battery disconnected should be between 13 and 14 volts..if ok check voltage connected with the bike running you should see between 13.5 and 14.2 volts...... may also pay to check the voltage as you start the bike with the starer motor...

Beakster said:

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. I ordered the anti gravity 4 cell AG-401 off Amazon and it arrived today.

I put it on my charger then saw the instructions said only use a lithium charger so I took it off. Voltage was showing over 13v so I put it on the bike. Electric starter was so much better than on the old battery. Now I want to make sure my charging system is up to maintaining it.

Clymer manual says that at 4000rpm it should show about 14.5v. it goes up but never reaches 14. But is still above 13v. Wondering if this is the charging nature of the new battery?

For the regulator test it says the resistance should be 10 times one way what it is the other. But one way I see infinite resistance, which I think is correct functioning of the diodes in the regulator rectifier

Is the charging voltage ok? Anything else I should check?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Your charging system is not meant for modern lithium batteries. Plain and simple, not designed for each other. If you are going to use a lithium battery, at the very least you need to have a volt meter that monitors/displays the voltage. You should also upgrade the regulator to a modern type.

I'm an EarthX fan too, I've got one in my 851 even though it killed the first one a few years back. The regulator went bad, I wasn't monitoring voltage, it overpowered the built in protection and the battery went China Syndrome on me. EarthX has since upped the protection in them so this may not have happened with a new one, but hopefully I'll never have to prove that. Since then I've upgraded the regulator and have a volt meter on it to monitor what's going on.




I don't know what the issue is with your bike. I do know you need a volt meter on the bike. If it's too high or too low, figure out why and fix it. Lithium batteries are not plug and play for old bikes. Most lithium battery companies have a FAQ on their website which will tell you what voltages you want to see. FWIW if you were overcharging, you'd know. As I understand it what happens is, the battery can't handle the charge and starts to electroplate it's internals. Eventually that leads to an internal short. When that happens, the battery discharges itself and turns all that energy into heat/smoke/fumes. There's nothing you can do to stop it once it's started, just sit back and enjoy the show. It would terrify me to see this happen in an airplane...

You're playing with fire using these batteries on older bikes. Maybe not literally, rumor has it they don't usually produce flames when they go, but while I was watching mine melt down I wasn't so sure... I could swear I saw something arcing at first. It was "exciting" watching it happen behind an 851's fairing, I'm sure it'd be even more fun watching it happen under a seat/tailsection.

Beakster said:

Once started it ran fine. I wonder if at the end of the lesson we left the key on but engine off for 5 to 10 minutes while reviewing the lesson. Would this have been enough to discharge it to the point the lights are off? Does this mean I've now damaged my new battery? What is the minimum charging voltage I should see when reving the engine?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Yes. That would definitely be enough to discharge the battery.

2.3Ah is not a lot of capacity.

Lets say your headlight is 35W and rated for nominal 12V. In reality, 12V is usually more like 13V in the automotive world, so you're really pulling like 2.7A. So battery dead in 51 minutes and that's just the headlight. If you have the coils pulling power (or anything else for that matter), then the time comes up even sooner.

Hi,

Ok so I did some tests to check voltage and resistance. Resistance tests on regulator rectifier and stator check out in terms of the diodes are only conducting one way in rectifier and the the stator hasn't shorted. Voltage was as follows:

Idle voltage (light on): 12.8V
4000rpm voltage (light on): 13.3 - 13.5V

Idle voltage (light disconnected): 13V
4000 rpm voltage (light disconnected): 13.8V

Alternator output voltage at idle: 17V
Alternator output voltage at 4000rpm: 60V

Alternator resistance 0.8 ohms.

So I think my issue is that the regulator rectifier isn't putting out as much voltage as it should be. I've ordered a Ricks Motorsport one so will replace it in a couple of days and check voltage again. I believe I should be seeing over 14V at 4000rpm. So the battery isn't being charged as fast to as full as it should be, meaning that when stopped with light on it will run down fast.

Ive also ordered an LED H4 lamp for the front to reduce the power taken by that.

The alternator resistance is supposed to be between 0.4 and 0.5 ohms and is showing 0.8, but this may just be my multimeter as that is quite a small reading.

Sonreir said:

Yes. That would definitely be enough to discharge the battery.

2.3Ah is not a lot of capacity.

Click to expand...

the antigravity is a 6Ah battery

Beakster said:

Hi,

Ok so I did some tests to check voltage and resistance. Resistance tests on regulator rectifier and stator check out in terms of the diodes are only conducting one way in rectifier and the the stator hasn't shorted. Voltage was as follows:

Idle voltage (light on): 12.8V
4000rpm voltage (light on): 13.3 - 13.5V

Idle voltage (light disconnected): 13V
4000 rpm voltage (light disconnected): 13.8V

Alternator output voltage at idle: 17V
Alternator output voltage at 4000rpm: 60V

Alternator resistance 0.8 ohms.

So I think my issue is that the regulator rectifier isn't putting out as much voltage as it should be. I've ordered a Ricks Motorsport one so will replace it in a couple of days and check voltage again. I believe I should be seeing over 14V at 4000rpm. So the battery isn't being charged as fast to as full as it should be, meaning that when stopped with light on it will run down fast.

Ive also ordered an LED H4 lamp for the front to reduce the power taken by that.

The alternator resistance is supposed to be between 0.4 and 0.5 ohms and is showing 0.8, but this may just be my multimeter as that is quite a small reading.

Click to expand...

Thats not bad maybe the voltage is a tad low when plodding along ...during the lesson were you hitting the kill switch and then restarting a lot...with a lot of idle/low speed work and constant starting may have pulled the battery down. do you have a suitable lithium battery charger? if not do you know of anyone that does...may pay to see if it will come good with a decent charge
I wonder if this is the reason the orig died?

wozza said:

the antigravity is a 6Ah battery
Thats not bad maybe the voltage is a tad low when plodding along ...during the lesson were you hitting the kill switch and then restarting a lot...with a lot of idle/low speed work and constant starting may have pulled the battery down. do you have a suitable lithium battery charger? if not do you know of anyone that does...may pay to see if it will come good with a decent charge
I wonder if this is the reason the orig died?

Click to expand...

Hi,

Yes, during the lesson the starter was used quite a few times so I think this would have pulled the voltage down. Then it was finished off by leaving the key on. I suspect the old lithium battery I was replacing was bad (it was 6+ years old and at 2.3Ah was undersized). This probably put stress on the regulator rectifier. I've got a new Ricks 10-304 regulator rectifier on the way which should help to keep the battery fully charged. Replacing the headlight with an LED one should help a bit.

I think the antigravity battery is still good. Although they say it must never go below 12V, I think that's to cover their arses on warranty claims. I've seen a lot of posts saying that letting it discharge doesn't have a noticeable effect provided it is charged back up again quickly. Mine would have been down for 5 minutes maximum before charging back up with a push start and a ride, and after a good ride the electric start seemed to be working well.

I don't have a lithium charger. I have a basic 2 amp charger (which doesnt have the desulphating). I charged it on that with a volt meter attached so I could make sure it didn't go to high. The charger took it to 14.2V before switching to maintenance mode at about 13.4V. Battery is maintaining a constant 13.4V after disconnecting charger now so I suspect it still has a good bit of life left in it. Hopefully with the new regulator rectifier and a bit of care not to leave the ignition on with the engine off, we should be all good.