DO THE TON

Turn your Brain Off and Shoot the Shit => Loungin at da club => Topic started by: Scooter trash on Aug 24, 2017, 16:26:07

Title: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Aug 24, 2017, 16:26:07
I doubt anyone on this forum owns only one motorcycle, so this is for the ones that do the 1/4 mile still. My 450 Honda turned a 13.17 @ 99 mph in 1967 at high altitude. I'm going to install a high oil pressure pump mod to see if 95 psi will help, it might just slow it down too with all that oil flying around. The bike is a gen 1 zx14 with 14 lbs boost. launching a turbo is difficult as you have to leave almost at the rev limiter. There are old GS and KZ bikes killing me in the 1/8. It has 8" over, Shinko drag hookup, two stage lock up clutch. Just can't get those damn 3 tenths. More boost is likely to break the motor. No one knows everything, so input?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sav0r on Aug 24, 2017, 17:26:10
Pull a vacuum on the crank case to reduce windage while adding oil pressure to make up for... windage. You'll see nice gains there.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Redbird on Aug 24, 2017, 17:30:01
Lay off the Cheeseburgers?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: stroker crazy on Aug 24, 2017, 18:25:10
Lay off the Cheeseburgers?

Always the cheapest method of improving acceleration!

Crazy
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: jimmer on Aug 24, 2017, 19:30:08
Before I even read the other responses, the first thing I thought was how much does this guy weigh?? Good 60', many decent r/t. You want those 8's doncha?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: jimmer on Aug 24, 2017, 19:31:45
Foot shifting? Does it maintain the boost the whole time?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Aug 24, 2017, 20:11:02
Foot shifting? Does it maintain the boost the whole time?

Have to shift at 9k which keeps us at the peak of torque and hp. Any higher and the trap speed drops off 5 mph. Rider suited is 230 lbs. 
We're going to try 8500k and see how that goes. The fuel drops off because we need a 6:1 fuel pressure regulator.

At this hp we have already broke a sprocket holder bearing so more hp is breaky breaky time. Good thing the bearing lunched on the dyno. My buddy on his turbo Busa ran a 7.90 at 182 mph and hurt his rod bearing.

Here's the final rub, Cycle world gets 9.50 at 149 mph on a bike right out of the crate!!

The bike has 50,500 miles on it, adding more power means less riding and more trouble.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: jimmer on Aug 24, 2017, 20:35:30
Looks like it is still pulling strong at 10,600. It looks like you could easily shift at 10,000 and roll through the traps  closer to the 10,600 mark. Have you tried this?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Aug 24, 2017, 21:36:37
Looks like it is still pulling strong at 10,600. It looks like you could easily shift at 10,000 and roll through the traps  closer to the 10,600 mark. Have you tried this?

It pulls better at 9k, we've tried shifting up to 11k, shifting at around the torque peak works best. The hp at 10.5k looks better but it just doesn't work that way for some reason. At 8k it wants to pull you off the seat, then the thrust dwindles beyond that.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: jimmer on Aug 24, 2017, 21:57:27
Hmm. Gear it tall and put a bigger load on it. Use the torque.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: teazer on Aug 24, 2017, 23:12:50
I'd think about shifting the torque curve to allow for higher RPM shifts, but I see that Brocks have peak torque at the same 8k revs and are managing better times with 100 less HP.

Maybe the answer is that you have too much power to get off the line hard enough. I wonder how it would run with less power......

And a lighter rider would really help too I guess. :-(
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Aug 25, 2017, 13:23:03
My swb 02 GSXR 1k ran 9.40's all day with decent 60ft times.  Stock motor !!  Something don't seem right. That thing should be flying. I'm sure me weighing only 150lbs helps too but..
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Aug 25, 2017, 13:31:33
You running total loss? (Temporarily) removing the charging system will allow the bike to rev faster and the alternator usually robs a little power, too.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Aug 25, 2017, 13:31:40
Is it spinning any past the 60ft ?  Clutch slipping?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 4eyes on Aug 26, 2017, 14:29:49
It looks to me like there is no correlation between your reaction times and your 60' times, or E.T. for that matter.
That leads me to think there is something screwy around the launch, maybe clutch slippage.


p.s. Nice reaction times. (almost all anyway)   ;)
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: irk miller on Aug 26, 2017, 14:44:31
Nothing matters with the motor if it isn't getting to the ground.  What are the options for tire compounds with bikes?  My experience drag racing is with cars.  We ran a harder compound on our Bugs and softer compounds on our Roadrunners. We also gained a couple tenths on the Bug with a shorter shift, after everything else was dialed in.  We ran a shifter that could be adjusted from 4" down to 1".  The Roadunners were always autos, so the stall was a bigger factor in hooking up off the start.  One thing with tires is that sometimes a controlled spin is a good thing.  A dead hook can shake or cause the motor to bog. 
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Aug 26, 2017, 18:41:41
With the two stage I raised the static pressure .025" x 5, the added oil pressure didn't do anything...maybe. There bikes with wheelie bars and slicks just making us look parked until the turbo get wound up at 185,000 rpms

When we run a 41 tooth rear the top speed increases to 157 mph, but the 60' goes in the toilet.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Aug 26, 2017, 22:05:59
What brand of locker clutch you using?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Aug 27, 2017, 00:00:07
MTC two stage, with Muzzy performance springs shimmed at .150"
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Aug 28, 2017, 10:07:20
Are you running a two step ?  I cant imagine launching that high in the revs is needed. What is your boost at launch? Are you running a boost controller?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Aug 28, 2017, 21:25:03
Are you running a two step ?  I cant imagine launching that high in the revs is needed. What is your boost at launch? Are you running a boost controller?

You don't get any boost without a load, no, not running a two step.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Aug 28, 2017, 21:28:54
AMS 2000...little expensive but I bet it would get you a better launch and boost control.  Launching that high in the rpms can't be productive.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Sep 10, 2017, 00:35:39
9.23 @ 153 getting closer.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 10, 2017, 13:07:20
This might be a dumb question, but have you removed the rev limiter? You can usually get an extra 1000 RPM over where the manufacturer sets the redline (assuming you don't mind rebuilding engines a little more often).
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Sep 14, 2017, 00:45:15
Because the torque peak is 8500 rpms, we go slower at a higher rpm, even though the hp is higher. Torque seems to be the pulling factor, hp is a weird factor that doesn't always bear fruit.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 14, 2017, 02:15:24
Might be worth a try anyway. In my experience, horsepower is the more important factor in determining acceleration.

From a mathematical standpoint, acceleration is just a function of force and mass. Increasing force or lowering mass will raise acceleration. But because the forces we're talking about are measured through the wheels, with gearing being involved, horsepower is the real number. NA engines usually want to be wound out to near redline anyway.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: irk miller on Sep 14, 2017, 07:51:08
Might be worth a try anyway. In my experience, horsepower is the more important factor in determining acceleration.

From a mathematical standpoint, acceleration is just a function of force and mass. Increasing force or lowering mass will raise acceleration. But because the forces we're talking about are measured through the wheels, with gearing being involved, horsepower is the real number. NA engines usually want to be wound out to near redline anyway.
Nope.  Horsepower is torque/time.

Torque is more important for acceleration than horsepower.  It's all about the force that wheel contacts the road, and must be greater than resistance to motion.  Resistance to motion is the total of all of the friction, rolling resistance, and air resistance that is exerted on the motorcycle, and these values of resistance change as the speed of his motorcycle changes.  When force generated at the tire contact point is greater than the total resistance of his motorcycle, the motorcycle will accelerate.  The greater difference between tire force and resistance, the greater the acceleration.   

When you increase force you increase acceleration.  Wheels connect to axle, which connect to final drive, which connect to motor, so force at the contact point (tire to road) is the torque generated by the axle (force x distance = torque).  As a result, when you increase the torque at the drive axle, you accelerate more quickly. 
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: farmer92 on Sep 14, 2017, 09:42:44
Nope.  Horsepower is torque/time.

Torque is more important for acceleration than horsepower.  It's all about the force that wheel contacts the road, and must be greater than resistance to motion.  Resistance to motion is the total of all of the friction, rolling resistance, and air resistance that is exerted on the motorcycle, and these values of resistance change as the speed of his motorcycle changes.  When force generated at the tire contact point is greater than the total resistance of his motorcycle, the motorcycle will accelerate.  The greater difference between tire force and resistance, the greater the acceleration.   

When you increase force you increase acceleration.  Wheels connect to axle, which connect to final drive, which connect to motor, so force at the contact point (tire to road) is the torque generated by the axle (force x distance = torque).  As a result, when you increase the torque at the drive axle, you accelerate more quickly.

I agree with everything here but would like to add one thing.
Horsepower is unit of power, how much work is being done in a given time. Work is a force times displacement. So hp dictates force*displacement /time.  The top speed.

If a vehicle has a cvt transmission, then keeping the engine at max hp would give max wheel torque, but with fixed gearing the engine torque and wheel torque are linearly related.

I know you know this, just thought it would help others perhaps.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 14, 2017, 10:54:43
Here's a dyno of HD's new 107 engine.

Peak torque occurs directly off of idle.

I'd still be inclined to give it some revs if getting from point A to point B were my goal.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: irk miller on Sep 14, 2017, 10:58:39
Here's a dyno of HD's new 107 engine.

Peak torque occurs directly off of idle.

I'd still be inclined to give it some revs if getting from point A to point B were my goal.
Where's acceleration over time in your chart?  That's a dyno graph.  How much time transpired from the beginning to end of their data log.  This is about getting something from point A to point B (which is a short distance of 1/4 mile or 1/8 mile) in the shortest amount of time possible.  You're missing a most basic theory of physics and drag racing. 
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 14, 2017, 11:06:33
The dyno chart also doesn't state that the 2017 Street Glide is 830 pounds but the chart is still useful information in determining shift points, no? It may not show the whole picture, but the whole picture is just made up of discrete parts that fit together in a certain way.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 14, 2017, 11:35:53
Anyway... I see your point. I was wrong about the horsepower thing.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 14, 2017, 11:48:47
Here are some numbers based on a 2006 model. I imagine your numbers will vary since you're on an FI setup. You have a dyno of your current build?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Sep 14, 2017, 13:35:24
I still stand behind my statement that you are launching at too high of an rpm. If it was a bar bike then yeah. When I was going to the track on my Gsxr I was launching at around 5500 rpm and was pulling about the same 60ft times you guys are. Get a 2 step and set it for around 5000 rpms and watch the difference.
That bike should be able to hit high 8's launching it like you just pulled out from a stop light. If it runs slower shifting at redline then that would lead me to believe there is something wrong with the set up.  Just my .02
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sav0r on Sep 14, 2017, 20:28:14
Get the stacks plateaued and do ceramic bearings throughout. Won't be cheap but that's a nice reduction of parasitic drag throughout.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Sep 14, 2017, 22:11:13
I posted this on the first page. Between seat time and experimenting at different launch rpms.10,500 launch gets the turbo into work load then in second gear, shift at 8500, which is the torque peak.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: farmer92 on Sep 15, 2017, 08:13:00
I posted this on the first page. Between seat time and experimenting at different launch rpms.10,500 launch gets the turbo into work load then in second gear, shift at 8500, which is the torque peak.

Why shift at torque peak?
Wouldn't you want to shift at the point when the torque at the wheel is the same in both gears?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170915/4593f751d9c61550cb279cb6ce06735a.png)

You can see here where the curves for the rear wheel torque intersect, those would be your shift points.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 15, 2017, 11:43:04
Why shift at torque peak?
Wouldn't you want to shift at the point when the torque at the wheel is the same in both gears?

That makes sense to me. I should revise my chart.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Sep 15, 2017, 13:25:53
Does he hit the limiter before he can shift into 2nd gear?
How much seat time does your rider have?   I have seen guys running 5.60's (1/8th mile ) on extended swingarm bikes with a stock motor and maybe a 50 shot of spray. What brand is the turbo? What size are your injectors?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Sep 15, 2017, 23:58:50
Does he hit the limiter before he can shift into 2nd gear?
How much seat time does your rider have?   I have seen guys running 5.60's (1/8th mile ) on extended swingarm bikes with a stock motor and maybe a 50 shot of spray. What brand is the turbo? What size are your injectors?
He hasn't hit the rev limiter lately, but he did report it seemed early. The turbo is a Turbonetic T3-T4 with a 55mm compressor scroll. The injectors are 620cc, fed with a 225 lph fuel pump at 45 psi.

Here's the kicker in the teether, the plugs came stock gapped at .055" out of the box for the Ford Connect van. I've been just putting them in because the general notion is that you don't have to gap Iridium plugs. The shop manual just says to replace them is dirty or discolored no gap recommendation until you dig into the electrical section and it wants .031-.035" gap. Turbos need to be gapped .001-.005" closer. This might explain the power drop off, I'll find out next race. BLAAAH! Darwin award time. Bought a new set and they were .036", so back to the drawing board.
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: 1fasgsxr on Sep 19, 2017, 13:29:36
Is it running out of fuel in the upper rpm's?
Title: Re: Finding three tenths of a louzy second.
Post by: Scooter trash on Sep 23, 2017, 22:07:12
Is it running out of fuel in the upper rpm's?
Yes it is, I have a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to fix it. The 1:1 won't work.