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Author Topic: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750  (Read 14606 times)

Offline jpmobius

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #255 on: Feb 15, 2017, 12:44:39 »
The amount of motion in the video looks fine.  The fact that the pressure plate does not contact the snap ring is ok - there is no need for it to do so.  If you don't have the same degree of motion now I would look for a problem in the actuator first.  The actuating crank in the last picture looks like it is in the wrong position.   When the crank arm and cable are at 90o to each other, usually that is the midpoint in the rotation of the arm.  Don't be confused by the shape of the arm, imagine a straight line between the center of rotation and the swivel pin for the cable as the arm.  I would expect that it should be 20o-30o counter clockwise from the position in the pic when the return spring has it fully retracted.  Perhaps the mounting casting needs to be swapped 180o as previously suggested to get it in the right position.
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2017, 12:47:15 by jpmobius »
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Offline XS750AU

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #256 on: Feb 15, 2017, 17:04:39 »
Hi Ryan
The other indicator that the actuator housing is the wrong way, is that the adjuster lock nut is very difficult to get a socket onto the nut. The lock nut should be prominent and easy to get a socket on, when the housing is the wrong way the nut set back and recessed deep into the actuator!
Sounds like to PO had a problem with the clutch if there are spare plates and missing clips, so I guess he could have pulled the actuator apart also - you just never know! Very simple job to swap it over and see if you get any improvement.
Cheers
Tim

Offline Ryan Stecken

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #257 on: Feb 16, 2017, 04:28:41 »
Thanks mobius and tim for your precious insight!
Is there a way tim that you make a pic of your adjustment screw for me to see how far it protrudes?

Made 2 pics one of my adjustment screw how it sits right now.
And one of from the top with clutch fully pulled in,does your pushrod look like this  when fully pulled in tim?
Thanks!



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« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2017, 05:20:57 by Ryan Stecken »

Offline XS750AU

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #258 on: Feb 16, 2017, 05:22:46 »
Hi Ryan

I had a look at your video - the clutch appeared to actuate correctly! Did you actuate it using the clutch handle bar lever, or some other way?

Please see below the photos of the adjuster screw on the XS750, which has had the engine completely disassembled for hydroblasting and rebuild. I did not remove the clutch cage from the shaft during rebuild as it was OK. That was the one I had the housing the wrong way round! The 750 is very clean in photo!

The other photos are of the clutch on the XS896 build. This was the first time I have removed the cover, and give that that engine has probably done less than 100hrs in it entire life, it would be the factory adjustment! This is the dusty photos - first time to remove the cover!!!

Both look very similar as far as adjuster screw projecting out of lock nut. Hope it helps.
Cheers
Tim

Offline XS750AU

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #259 on: Feb 16, 2017, 06:04:14 »
Ryan
Sorry forgot the photos of the rod - attached below.
From your photos the housing is the correct way. Adjustment is similar, in that you have 5 threads showing on adjuster screw, my 750 has 6 threads showing and the 896 7 threads (once again indicating that engine has done bugger all work).
It is looking like the actuator is OK, so I guess it is back to the clutch cage. I have not had to rebuild the cage so will not be much help. Remember reading somewhere that there was a cork faced pressure plate that must be in the correct location - see if I can find the reference.
Good luck.

Offline der_nanno

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #260 on: Feb 16, 2017, 06:26:56 »
Don Carlos,

have a look at your and David's adjuster. You owe me a pint. Because the place where the fault lives, is pretty obvious now.  8)
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Offline Ryan Stecken

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #261 on: Feb 16, 2017, 06:27:40 »
Thanks for the pics tim!

Just had some and removed the side cover of the XS and remounted the assembly 180 degrees (base part with the steel balls).
Then remounted.
Doesnt look like it makes a big difference.
Now i'm confused :-)

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Offline XS750AU

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #262 on: Feb 16, 2017, 06:48:51 »
Hi Ryan
Yep you have also confused me ;D
From the attached photo, has this change meant that you are going to get more rotation into the actuator? About 4-5mm on the cable end?
Put it together and see if the clutch now releases, cannot do any harm.

Offline XS750AU

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #263 on: Feb 16, 2017, 17:25:06 »
Hi Ryan
Found the document I was after, it was a service supplement for the 2D model. Not sure if it applies to your bike, but it might!
Cheers
Tim

Offline Ryan Stecken

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #264 on: Feb 17, 2017, 14:00:20 »
Hi Ryan
Found the document I was after, it was a service supplement for the 2D model. Not sure if it applies to your bike, but it might!
Cheers
Tim
Hey tim!

Could you please eloborate I don't really get it.
Aren't all friction plates cork lined?

Tried if the clutch releases now...no success even with the flipped actuation,i still cannot roll the bike forward with no resistance....
Tried to screw the mechanism screw as far as possible in (clutch was then impossible to pull) and even then it was the same...

Thanks!

« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2017, 14:02:32 by Ryan Stecken »

Online Maritime

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #265 on: Feb 17, 2017, 14:11:01 »
Ryan check a parts fiche as some clutches have one different friction plate from all the rest and it needs to go in the right place or the clutch won't work. It should look slightly different and should have a different part number from the other plates.

Edit:

Looks like you don't have a special plate, if your 750 is a 79 at least. so the last highlighted comment may just mean make sure the last plate in the stack is a friction plate, not the other.  the Fiche XS750AU posted is a little different from the one I looked up on BB. it looks to have a special plate but I think that is the XS850 fiche. Not sure but the stack starts and ends with friction plates.
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2017, 14:29:24 by Maritime »
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Offline jpmobius

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #266 on: Feb 17, 2017, 16:19:27 »
Take the clutch side cover off so you can see the operation of the clutch.  Put the throw out mechanism back together and put the cover and cable back on the bike.  You need to understand how the adjuster works.  The center screw is the actual adjuster and its purpose is to adjust the distance between the throw out mechanism and the rod that actually pushes the pressure plate which disengages the clutch by relieving the spring pressure.  The adjuster is needed to make up differences in manufacturing tolerances which stack up from one side of the engine to the other.  There needs to be a slight bit of space between the adjuster screw and the push rod so that zero pressure is applied when the lever is not pulled.  So the screw should spin freely until the mechanism touches the push rod at which time you can still screw it in, but then you would be partially engaging the clutch.  So screw it in until it touches and then back it out a bit to create clearance and lock it down with the nut.  If all is well with the throw out mechanism, you should see the pressure plate compress the clutch springs just like your video when you pull in the lever.  If you do not see this motion, you can check the throw out mechanism by taking off the pressure plate and placing a small screwdriver or punch against the end of the now exposed ball (which should be at the pressure plate end of the clutch push rod) and pulling in the clutch lever.  You should see a few mm of motion like in your video.  If you see that the throw out mechanism works but does not expand the clutch pack, the ball and push rod length is too short or the clutch pack is too far away for some reason. Unless the push rod got swapped for a too short one somehow, that length is fixed so look to see the clutch basket has not somehow been spaced too far away from the case for some reason - incorrect assembly maybe.  If you see little or no motion of the pressure plate and/or the lever is super hard or can not be pulled in correctly, check that there is not an extra clutch plate in the stack or that it is not too thick.  When this happens, there is not enough travel available to the pressure plate before the springs bind. This is not that uncommon when people replace their clutches and interchange plates of mixed manufacture, forget how many plates go where, or the aftermarket plates are too thick. There is no adjustment for the clutch itself except by replacing/exchanging parts.  If you do see this obvious motion when you pull the lever (engage the clutch), and the driven shaft does not spin fairly freely, likely there is trouble with the plates, basket or pressure plate.  Most clutches have all the friction (cork) plates identical and all the drive (steel) plates identical.  Not much can go wrong with the friction plates unless they get fried, but the steel plates can get warped or bent.  Take the clutch pack apart and take each plate out and rub both sides around on a piece of #600 sandpaper wet on a pane of glass.  You should get scratches on most all the surfaces with very little sanding.  If you have obviously bent or deformed plates replace them with flat ones.  Bent plates can act like a spring retaining some clamping pressure even when the pressure plate is released and cause the clutch to drag.
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2017, 16:21:29 by jpmobius »
Mobius


On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

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Offline Ryan Stecken

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #267 on: Feb 19, 2017, 11:25:35 »
So I guys.I think I have good news.
Not really ecstatic since I had a lot of hassle so far.
Yesterday,full day of work on the XS.
Completely took apart clutch side and reassembled left ign side and renewed the pushrod seal.
Took the diagram and checked each and every part.
Looks like there was a little parts mix up.
Ran the steelies over some wet sanding paper,will post pics tomorrow (some were bent some not).the low spots were on the 'teeth' side of the steelies.

Didnt want to wait so I put everything back together just to have a look if its working better. and the bike is wayyyy easier to
move in gear when clutched in.
Still a bit heavy in first gear,but maybe thats also the weight which i'm not used to.
Then I adjusted the clutch always alternating with checkig if I have compression on the kickstarter.
I settled on the adjustement of the screw where I juuuust got compression.

When I assembled the clutch into the bottom basket I felt that the steel plates are not easily slipping into place (there are marks,which I already adressed).
I will run the bike not as it is, but I guess I will need to file down the marks and replace steelies.
Does one replace all at the time or just single ones?

Thanks!

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Offline jpmobius

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #268 on: Feb 19, 2017, 12:18:41 »

Then I adjusted the clutch always alternating with checkig if I have compression on the kickstarter.
I settled on the adjustement of the screw where I juuuust got compression.

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I assume you are talking about the screw and lock nut that adjusts the axial position of the throw out mechanism in relation to the push rod.  This in no way is an adjustment for the clutch itself, it only adjusts the location of the throw out mechanism in relation to the clutch.  It MUST have ZERO pre load on the clutch itself when the hand lever is free, so it must have at least some clearance.  When correctly adjusted, it should not be contacting the push rod at all (in theory, the clearance can be between any of the parts involved, ball inside the throw out mechanism, pushrod, pushrod ball, and pressure plate).  If you adjust this with regard to the clutch engagement, i.e. whether the engine is locked to the kick starter, very likely you will have pre load on the clutch which must NOT be there.  There needs to be a very small amount of free play in the rotation of the throw out mechanism before it takes up the slack between the  the push rod, ball, and pressure plate and starts moving the pressure plate and thereby disengaging the clutch.  The clearance is necessary in order to ensure 100% of the spring pressure is used to clamp the clutch assembly together, otherwise the clutch may slip, get hot and suffer damage.
Mobius


On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

RD350 Yamaha build  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=66498.0

Offline Ryan Stecken

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Re: Project "walrus" Yam XS 750
« Reply #269 on: Feb 19, 2017, 14:12:30 »
Just had a read trough your last post mobius!thanks!really useful info,I will check and re adjust.
When I inserted the steel plates i saw that the surfaces of the clutch inner basket hindered slighlty an easy slip.When I buy new steelies I guess I will need to sand these surfaces slightly.

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