Fighting a Ticket in Ontario

Is there a lawyer or officer on this board that can clear this up? BTW I received my free legal advice from Redline. They walked me through the process and it worked out in my case. They even told me I would be saving my money by not hiring them on first appearance. But I would've hired them if the first appearance didn't end in my favour and I needed to go to trial.

DrJ said:

Is there a lawyer or officer on this board that can clear this up? BTW I received my free legal advice from Redline. They walked me through the process and it worked out in my case. They even told me I would be saving my money by not hiring them on first appearance. But I would've hired them if the first appearance didn't end in my favour and I needed to go to trial.

Click to expand...

I think going to First Appearance is a process designed to for a win-win solution. The Crown gets their conviction, the "offender", feels like they got off on a good deal, and the number of trials are reduced overall...win-win-win

However, theres no real different between a plea bargin now, or a plea bargin later.

First Appearance is just that... a First meeting to see what could be done, and if UR not satisfied, then you can then agree set a court date later and prepare, & hire a lawyer or exCopper or whatever, to plea bargin later.

The alternative is when you do a plea bargin at court before a session, (like most X-Coppers guys do), and if you dont like the offer from the crown, you'd better be ready to defend yourself at that session that day... Its still a plea bargain either way you slice it and you dont need a professional for, (from what Ive seen).

If you are willing to take a lesser charge because you dont have the time or etc..etc.. First Appearnace is the way to go.

I honestly felt that I was unjustly pulled over because I was the last car in the group of 3 and I wasnt gonna bend over and take it up the ass without a fight or bend over again for some ex-copper guy to take the first plea offer the crown gives and says that he did his best

The information that Noel gave is excellent! He should really be commended for all the time he took to put it all together. I agree, I would never just pay the ticket - there is no advantage to it. I also agree with him about the ticket defence guys, I would go and work out a plea myself.

The part I didn't agree with was the attitude in this statement:

"but MAN did I ever cross examine the cop... HE WAS PISSED!!!..LOL..
I got total satisfaction in knowing I questioned him like he's never been questioned before..."

As a police officer myself, I think this "the cop is the enemy" attitude is something that should only be seen in criminals, in fact I don't mind it from them at all. A seasoned criminal calling me a pig - I think is just as important as children waving to me as I pass; just the natural order of things... However, it sucks when a decent person like Noel is anti-police.

I write traffic tickets, they are the least favorite part of my job... but still part of my job. Do any of you have things about your work that you don't like but still do because your employer requires it???



I can't claim to speak for other officers but here's a little insight from my side of the encounter:


I don't have anything personal against the person I write a ticket to. After I've written a ticket, I could care less if the person pays it or gets demerits or whatever. If they get out of it, good for them, that's what I call a win-win situation.

I don't give warnings to people with radar detectors. I feel that just owning one is a signal that a person intends to speed and not get caught. Besides they've probably had their share of freebies already.

I hate the feeling of giving a ticket to someone who's nice. When someone is rude or ignorant to me, it is actually the best thing I could hope for. It is such a relief and that uncomfortable "I feel bad I gave them a ticket" feeling vanishes.

As a motorist myself I actually appreciate traffic enforcement. Sure, I hated it when I got a ticket! (paid it) But I ride a 32 year old 550cc motorcycle and I like it when most of the people around me are travelling at close to the speed limit. :-\

I can not even tell you how many people have asked, "why didn't you pull that guy over?" I was shaking my head as I read that Noel felt "unjustly pulled over" because there were two other people speeding in front of him. You know what, the #2 guy would have felt the same way and even the #1 guy probably wouldn't have said "yup, yessir... you got the right guy" I see this same thing in my kids: when I divide something up between them, they have to look and see how much their siblings got before they can be sure if they are satisfied or not. Same thing here, not a question of "whether or not I was speeding", only "what about them?" : My personal view is that the lead car is most culpable because they are "setting the pace"; however, pulling the first car over is the riskiest because it involves cutting between cars to separate them. Also, the driver of that car will feel even more "picked on" (perhaps rightfully) if I pass up other speeders that are closer to me, just to get him.

In closing I would say that if you get a ticket (and you are guilty), you should still go to court because the officer might not even show up. Even if they do, they would rather be elsewhere and the crown has a busy docket too; they will likely do a deal with you. For the most part, even if you go to trial your fine and demerits won't be any worse than if you had just paid the ticket - so you have nothing to lose by fighting it and everything to gain. The only decision is: "is it worth giving up the deal to try and get off totally?" Because if you are found guilty, you will have to pay the full amount.
And of course, if you are innocent you should go to trial to prove it.

Lastly, I would suggest that if you "ton-up" you should also "man-up". I hold the view that if I get a ticket, it's no one's fault but my own.

And man is it refreshing to come across people like that...


JME
- Chad

Interesting spin on things. I have had 3 tickets in my life. Only one was for speeding. Thats not to say that i dont, I just dont get caught. Luck? Probably, but i also maintain a constant vigilance for officers of the law, and ALL of my speeding (yes, i admit there are pleanty of times i do it on purpose) is either on the highway, or rual roads...C'mon, i have had semi powerful cars and bikes for most of my life, i gotta get on em every now and then, or whats the point in owning them? I do not speed in rush hour traffic, nor thru the city streets, as i do value my life, and unfortunately, i live in an area full of not just speeders, but attention deficit drivers, multitaskers and just plain idiots, to be blunt. *MY* biggest pet peeve, and one that i wish they would pass a law on in my state, is the cellphone yakker behind the wheel. Most often they are NOT speeding, but they are going TOO SLOW. Interupting traffic flow, not paying full attention to what is going on around them etc. I DO speed away from these people, especially when riding. To be frank, i feel very unsafe around them. There are also those who probably shouldnt be driving. Not to be discriminating, but in my opinon, people over the age of 65 should be tested yearly. Its at this point in life where motor skills, vision, hearing and mental capacity start to wane. Im not saying that all senior citizens are bad drivers, but there are pleanty that are. If you are scared to drive the limit, merge and whatnot, you shouldnt be driving. On the flip side, i think we (the US in general) should be a bit more stringent in our testing applications for drivers licenses. There are alot of immature people on the road, and putting a two ton weapon in those people's hands just doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

All in all i would consider myself a fairly safe driver and rider. I do not succumb to Johnny Hardon trying to best me on his Busa, because frankly i dont care. If i wanted a bike like that, i'd buy one. I follow all traffic laws, (minus my occasional speeding) i signal, i am courteous to other drivers ( i do flash a bit of roadrage to those people who put their and my life in jeprody by being stupid however, but its mostly scowls and muttering hehehe) i carry insurance on all my vehicles and i take care of them. Yes, i find my times and places for a little romp on the gas, and if/when i am caught, i take the rap for it. I flat out told the officer i knew i was speeding, and that i was guilty as sin. He in turn was very respectful, and while he did write me a ticket, he wrote it as clocked at a much slower speed (should have been 30 over, but gave me 20, to keep me out of a reckless op charge) And i respect that, he didnt have to do it, but did because i was honest and didnt attempt to talk my way out of a ticket, nor bitch or whine or be rude to him.

Though after some reading, I do think that i would most likely challenge ANY ticket i recieved via a Laser speed gun. I read an article in AAA magazine, where one of the co-designers of a certain model was stopped and ticketed via laser. He brought one of his companies product in to court with him, pointed it at a wall, flinched, and it registered the wall moving at 17 mph...Now i know those laser detectors are mounted to the OSP patrol cars, but if a flinch did that, a rocking car from traffic wind could do the same. The ticket was thrown out BTW...and he suggested that when stopped, ask not only to see the speed, but also what type of detection was used. They, by law, must divulge that information.

That's exactly the way I feel about it too 8) Right on.

That's a weird story about the laser though, I'd like to give it a read if you have the reference. I don't know what kind of laser was being used but I can tell you that I could never get a false reading if I "flinched" with a laser (I use the UltraLyte LTI 20-20). If I don't hold it steady, the laser will not give a reading and I just get buzzing tone. At the start of shift I have to do just what you described - shoot a target on a fence that is a known distance away (fixed distance, zero velocity test). And if I have written any tickets that day, I have to repeat the tests (including fd-0v) in order to demonstrate that the laser was tested before and after being used to write the ticket. In six years of doing this, I have never been able to get a reading of any speed off of a stationary wall...

It might just be a crappy laser... But still, the trained investigator in me ;D is skeptical as to why the co-designer of a laser would discredit it in order to get out of a speeding ticket??? Surely the damage to his employment or reputation would be far more costly than the cost of the ticket... wouldn't you think? Wouldn't he really be testifying: "look what a crappy product I designed" Something's fishy...

The ticket is marked with what method was used to verify the speed (that's right, the laser or radar is just used to verify the officer's estimation of speed, which is the real grounds for the ticket). There is nothing that says I have to show the person the reading on the laser, but I like to bring it out if they ask. Actually I have let people shoot a couple cars with it... it helps to alleviate any doubts they might have.

- Chad

I will look and see if i still have that mag. Its been prolly a year ago that i read that article, but i have a stack of them downstairs and its quite possible that i have it. I agree it is odd for him to have brought it in to beat a ticket, but the article was actually written by him, so i dont know if he still worked or works for the company after that...lol. Most of the locals down here still use radar, tho they;ve switched to the newer band ( i dunno what the designation is, but it isnt K band anymore) Only the Ohio State Patrol use lasers, and not all of them use them. Mayhaps it was early design, and even a couple of the local officers where i work who come in from time to time have said that a "good percentage" of the time, the laser detectors get knocked down in court. They wouldnt say WHAT percentage was a good percentage, but perhaps its just the same as radar. Again THEY dont use laser at all, i dunno if its because they find them to be quirky, or if they are too expensive or what.

I have nothing against cops, it's a tough job and I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it. I've received my fair share of tickets on my bike and in my car and yes, I was guilty on all counts. Most were minor so it wasn't worth it for me to take time off work and fight so I just paid them. And contrary to popular belief, a minor ticket or two won't affect your insurance premiums. One year I had 3 minor tickets and that's the only time there was an increase in my policy renewal, about 15%. On the other side of the coin, I've gotten just as many breaks as tickets, especially with Toronto cops. When I get pulled over by the local police I receive a ticket less than half the time, even if I was guilty. Maybe because I don't give them some tough guy attitude, they're just doing their job and nothing personal. One cop who pulled me over on my CB350 for running a stop sign and didn't write me up because he really liked my bike. Go figure, cops are human too. But the OPP are a different breed. No breaks. The careless driving charge would've messed me up big time so I decided to fight it and got lucky.

Ya, I can't speak for everyone. Some places have pretty strict policies about traffic - and they would not be very popular with local drivers. In fact, where I work, there is an expectation of 20 tickets/month for each officer. I was consistantly half of that number but it never caused me any problems because I could show that I was busy doing other things and not just slacking off (I laid the most criminal code charges in the district during last year so people kind of left me alone).

I'm glad that things worked out for you with your ticket. The insurance company is who I'm afraid of... just the thought of them increasing my rates (after paying for insurance for the last 15 years and never seeing a dime of that money) drives my blood pressure through the roof


Cheers,
- Chad

I have absolutely nothing against cops what-so-ever, infact, I contribute yearly to their Christmas "Wish for Kids" fund raiser thingy. Infact 3 close friends are cops and not to mention a family member.

However, that being said,... all 3 cop friends + my cousin all agreed that it is most common to pull the last guy in a group over if they clock or suspect that the first car is speeding. Also, the all agreed that using the Genesis Decatur II Directional unit that it is practically impossible to lock on and to accurately clock the second or following cars if they are within fairly close promixity being 2-4 car lengths apart. Hense the: Vehicle Interference Error, the Double-Bounce Error, etc..etc..

One cop friend even said that it is possible that car a passes 2 cars on the opposite lane, (only 2 lanes on the road), at an accelerated speed, a cop coming in the opposite direction clocks him at an accelerated rate as that car decelerates after making a pass. Cop makes a U-turn then pulls the innocent guy in the group without ever clocking him. Guilty by assumption. Now thats not fair

So that being said, whether I was speeding or not is irrelevant since, according to their opinion, I was most probably not clocked but rather the lead vehicle 2 cars ahead of me... Now,... Im not denying or confriming that I was speeding because honestly, I was just following the flow of traffic.

So dont get me wrong. Im not in any way anti-cop infact for those who know me know that Im the nicest, (but passive aggressive but very agreeable), guy around...

If Im gonna get pulled over for something or get persecuted for something I believe was unjust, Im gonna fight it.

It doesnt matter if you are a cop, lawyer, teacher, priest...or whatever. If I feel that I was treated unjustly or unfairly or misrepresented incorrectly for anything,.... be it at FutureShop for not honouring a warranty or for being served cold soup by a waiter at a restaurant, I'll challenge it... This has nothing to do with being pro or anti-cop. It just so happened that a cop pulled me for something I believe unjust so I challenged him.... publically in court, which is my given right.

So I lost. Big deal. I knew I probabbly would. But who cares at the end of the day I stood by my principle and fought for myself and didnt bend over without a fight!... a simple principle that I think everyone should live by.

Also note: Guelph loves their cops. There are more cops per person in Guelph then anywhere in north america. It's also known for being the mafia retirement capital of canada. thus, it's the safest place in canada (They don't want any kind of trouble in town which would bring undue attention to crime in the city).

I lived there for 4 years when I went to university there. Feeling much better now, thanks

AMen to that Noel! Im not knocking ya either...I'm always polite to cops, simply because its the path of least resistance. However i am fully aware that there ARE asshole cops out there. Especially in the rual areas around here. They have nothing better to do, honestly. They patrol little towns where murder or crime in general are a far and few between occassion. I also understand that generally police officers really only see people at thier worst. So i take that into consideration to.

Well, if you think you were "unjustly or unfairly or misrepresented incorrectly" then fill your boots, by all means. I just got the impression by the start of your post that you were speeding (before you started neither "denying or confirming") but went on to suggest that the copper is somehow the one who was in the wrong. ??? You can see how that would be confusing. And I don't have a problem that you challenged it publicly in court as was your right... heck I give the exact same advice to my friends. (I would do it myself except I cringe at the thought of being called the "accused" in court... I will continue to mail in any future payments - One speeding, one red light camera, and one photo radar ticket so far in my life). I mistakenly assumed you were anti-police from statements like "It was truly worth the satisfaction of seeing that cop squirm and studder like a fucking idiot on the stand", I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions about you and I'm sorry.

If you are upset that you got a speeding ticket, not because you weren't speeding, but because you think the officer shouldn't have been able to know that you were speeding, it might ease your mind to know that the officer can write a speeding ticket based on just seeing you speed. I don't know if it is different in Ontario or not but here an officer's estimate is grounds enough to issue a ticket. Also, if three vehicles are travelling at the same speed and he got a radar reading off the lead vehicle, it can still be used as evidence for any of the other vehicles in the group. Similarly if you pull over a vehicle that was gaining or passing other cars, you can still use the radar reading even if it may have come off of a different car... because if the reading didn't come off of the passing car, then it's speed had to be even higher.
Anyways, I don't mean to be argumentative or anything. Just wanting to shed some light on a thread that seemed to be needlessly hostile. Also a "clock" means to confirm the speed of the offending vehicle using the police car's speedometer. As you can imagine that is a real PITA (you need to verify that the speedometer is accurate etc). The only time I will ever go for a clock is if I follow the person for a few kms and they are maintaining 20+ over. And even then I only write them for 5 or so.
Anyways, I don't want to come off as being critical, it is awesome that you put all this info out there and I even learned some things .

I just don't think that you're the next Rodney King, or that anyone asked you to take it up the ass because you got a speeding ticket when you were speeding...

All in good fun,

- Chad