Doing Some Homework - Cafe Racer Build

Hello All,

I'm looking for advice and general guidance. I love custom bikes but am really particular with what I like but have found 'The One': http://www.kineticmotorcycles.com/honda-cb500550/

I have always kept an eye out for custom bikes and the last I owned was a 67 Triumph Bobber but have never seen for sale anything like the Cafe Racer in the above link. After approaching some custom bike builders here in the UK and being blown away with price I've come to the conclusion that the only way to get the bike I want is to build myself.

This is my first potential project and would be based on the Honda CB so I would like some feedback on whether a build like that would be achievable. My initial thought was that the swing arm/seat would be the most difficult bit but turns out that Kinetic sell that actual mono shock swing arm and seating loop so that would be the route I would go down. Any help/suggestions appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Some points...

The CB550 is more common than the CB500 in the UK, finding parts for the former will be much easier. Even better would be to go for a CB400/4 or a CB750, both are much better served for spares / custom / café parts in the UK.

No need to buy expensive parts from the US, everything on that bike can be sourced from the UK far cheaper.

There is nothing particularly difficult about the build you showed.. the monoshocked rear end needs care, particularly for the spring rate / damping.. but then the UK is well served for suspension experts.. Nitron, Maxton etc. You can buy rear hoops of the correct size from Ebay in the UK, cost around £20. Cutting / slugging / welding in place shouldn't cost too much if done by competent welder.

Cost depends on how much you can do yourself, what skills / tools / facilities you have. The bare minimum I would suggest is you 'project manage' - Buy the right bike, source the right parts, use the right experts when needed etc. Even if you never turn a spanner on the build, keep control of it, and that'll save you a lot of money.

Edit to add, that labour costs will be much more expensive in London / SE, and much cheaper up north. Where are you based?

Bevelheadmhr said:

Some points...

The CB550 is more common than the CB500 in the UK, finding parts for the former will be much easier. Even better would be to go for a CB400/4 or a CB750, both are much better served for spares / custom / café parts in the UK.

No need to buy expensive parts from the US, everything on that bike can be sourced from the UK far cheaper.

There is nothing particularly difficult about the build you showed.. the monoshocked rear end needs care, particularly for the spring rate / damping.. but then the UK is well served for suspension experts.. Nitron, Maxton etc. You can buy rear hoops of the correct size from Ebay in the UK, cost around £20. Cutting / slugging / welding in place shouldn't cost too much if done by competent welder.

Cost depends on how much you can do yourself, what skills / tools / facilities you have. The bare minimum I would suggest is you 'project manage' - Buy the right bike, source the right parts, use the right experts when needed etc. Even if you never turn a spanner on the build, keep control of it, and that'll save you a lot of money.

Edit to add, that labour costs will be much more expensive in London / SE, and much cheaper up north. Where are you based?

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Thanks for your input, I'm based in North Wales. The bits I mentioned from Kinetic are a bit excessive but I'm struggling to find the same swing arm elsewhere. I plan to do exactly what you say, project manage etc and will try to do the lesser skilled bits my self. Welding would be a job I'll contract out. It doesn't look too complicated to me once you look past the rear of the bike or am I missing something? I was quoted £20k off one bike builder and another said it would take a shit ton of money as there looks like there would be a hell of a lot of welding. This was just based on the pictures I posted originally.

Brick and mortar builds are always going to be expensive. You have to pay your rent, employees, utilities, insurance etc. Man hours are not cheap. The trick to what you want to build, is make sure the geometry is right. Just because something looks cool does not mean it works. You don't want the thing to spit you off and you sure don't want to kill the next owner when you decide the bike does not work for you. There is a reason suspension guys get paid well to set bikes up. Your build and weight can make a huge difference how the bike works. Ever have a bike go into a speed wobble at the ton? If you're going to change a bike that drastically, make sure it's right, this literally could cost somebody their life. It will make the difference between a rider or art that sits. There are a lot of bitchin bikes out there, that can't be ridden, because it was fashion over form. Find somebody that has used the lit you are looking at (not somebody who works for the company) and get unbiased opinions. How does it work? How hard is the bike pushed? What are the pro's and con's? Having something professionally installed means nothing if the design is shit. Can't wait to see what you build. Good Luck.

Karl740 said:

Hello All,

I'm looking for advice and general guidance. I love custom bikes but am really particular with what I like but have found 'The One': http://www.kineticmotorcycles.com/honda-cb500550/

I have always kept an eye out for custom bikes and the last I owned was a 67 Triumph Bobber but have never seen for sale anything like the Cafe Racer in the above link. After approaching some custom bike builders here in the UK and being blown away with price I've come to the conclusion that the only way to get the bike I want is to build myself.

This is my first potential project and would be based on the Honda CB so I would like some feedback on whether a build like that would be achievable. My initial thought was that the swing arm/seat would be the most difficult bit but turns out that Kinetic sell that actual mono shock swing arm and seating loop so that would be the route I would go down. Any help/suggestions appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

That bike appears to be a static display, most likely for some rich bloke to put in his den.

So monoshocked rear suspension, severely limited stock front suspension and firestone tires do not make for a dynamically balanced bike. Also, there appears to be no rearsets, mostly likely because of the exhaust placement.

A simple rule is "The more beautiful the photograph, the less useful the motorcycle".

I'm gonna second RWS -- that rear end looks especially flimsy and dangerous.

Sounds like you've already had a bike or a few, so you have an idea of what you want. Although the mono-shock conversion certainly has its fans, I'm not one of them. You'll hear it a million times but it's true -- those Honda engineers had a pretty good idea of what they were doing when they designed those bikes.

Regardless, best of luck!

Karl740 said:

Thanks for your input, I'm based in North Wales. The bits I mentioned from Kinetic are a bit excessive but I'm struggling to find the same swing arm elsewhere. I plan to do exactly what you say, project manage etc and will try to do the lesser skilled bits my self. Welding would be a job I'll contract out. It doesn't look too complicated to me once you look past the rear of the bike or am I missing something? I was quoted £20k off one bike builder and another said it would take a shit ton of money as there looks like there would be a hell of a lot of welding. This was just based on the pictures I posted originally.

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If you paid £20K for a bike like that, you'd be mad, it'd be worth £3K -5K at best if you tried to sell. You wont find anyone selling a Swingarm like that, its based on the OE twin shock swingarm, but modified / braced for a monoshock. The frame will also need to be braced to take the increased stress of the monoshock.

If you know the right welder / fabricator, I would expect to pay around £500 for those mods, plus the cost of a suitable rear shock, finding one with the correct length/spring rate/damping wont be easy, unless you have one custom built for the bike. Another option would be to take the whole rear end off another bike and graft it onto the stock frame.. something like a Ducati SS rear end of example.

But the first task is to source a suitable bike, the CB range is now in classic territory and one in good condition / good engine wont be cheap. Buying a non runner is a money pit unless you can rebuild the engine yourself. If I was looking to build the same bike, I'd base it on the popular and more powerful CB750 SOHC, or a Kawasaki Z550 / 650 / 750 / 1000 range, all of which have great spares backup / following in the UK, and will be slightly newer / cheaper / more reliable than a 70's CB Honda, faster too !

For example, here's my friend William's Z650 project, its not complete yet, and he owned the bike before he started. But even with a big bore engine rebuild, one off alloy tank / seat and all the mods, the whole project will cost around £3000 - £3500. That's a bike with far more one off parts / engineering than the one you posted..
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=71576.msg850083#msg850083

I'm not too far from you in Cheshire, so if you need any advice/ pointers, I can help, though I don't get involved in other folks builds, my own projects keep me busy enough as is

Thanks for the replies and it's a good job sites like these exist otherwise I would be none the wiser. Sounds like this style swing arm is a no go then so back to the drawing board. I'm not against the standard twin shock set up just the monos shock styles looks really clean and different.

I've noticed that the cb bikes aren't cheap for half decent ones. What do you guys generally take into consideration when looking for a donor and what price range is a fair expectancy. Thanks for the help

Karl740 said:

Thanks for the replies and it's a good job sites like these exist otherwise I would be none the wiser. Sounds like this style swing arm is a no go then so back to the drawing board. I'm not against the standard twin shock set up just the monos shock styles looks really clean and different.

I've noticed that the cb bikes aren't cheap for half decent ones. What do you guys generally take into consideration when looking for a donor and what price range is a fair expectancy. Thanks for the help

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You might actually want more of a newer motorcycle then with a properly developed mono swingarm. It can be done but this one you picked is a horrible example. Actually, if you ever see a bike with a pair of bias ply Firestones on it, it is probably a piece of crap, and not a good riding motorcycle.

A Ducati Monster is usually a good starter for a cafe bike with mono swingarm.

redwillissuperman said:

You might actually want more of a newer motorcycle then with a properly developed mono swingarm. It can be done but this one you picked is a horrible example. Actually, if you ever see a bike with a pair of bias ply Firestones on it, it is probably a piece of crap, and not a good riding motorcycle.

A Ducati Monster is usually a good starter for a cafe bike with mono swingarm.

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I've never ridden a bike with those tyres so couldn't comment, are they poor due to their shape? In respect to the ducati recommendation it's too modern looking I prefer the old school look.

The idea (except for the truly talented, which I'm not) is to find as complete a bike as possible for the least amount of $, hopefully running. I spent a lot of time on "fringe" bikes. Yes Honda's are nice, but I've got some screamin deals on Suzuki's and Yamaha's. The mods you want to do are not specific to Honda's, and if you look around this site, you'll see all different bikes. Truly, if somebody offers you a decent Sportster in your price range, grab it. Somebody looking to roll an old GS out of their garage, get it. BSA, Triumph.... It's not the bike, but what you do with it.

Hell some guys in here have done amazing things with Virago's and Honda CX's. Keep your ear to the ground. If you find a decent Honda, great, if not, bikes like Yamaha triples make great bikes and have really good site with smart people. Yamaha XS650's are really decent bikes. In your neck of the woods there might be all kinds of euro stuff hiding. Heck there are some great café bikes made out of dirt bikes. I recently bought a BSA 650 with a single carb. easy to work on, looks cool, and if I ever get the balls, I'd like modern brakes and suspension. It runs, I got a good deal on it, and parts aren't as scarce as you'd think. Open your mind and see the bikes people forgot. I rode Honda 305's for years, now everybody wants big $ for them, but for years they were cheap entertainment. The hunt is half the fun and if you end up with a KZ400 or an XS500, it'll be yours, an open canvass...

I'm still considering my options and what's available. I have looked at the CXs as running bikes are a bit more readily available, but I am still drawn to the CB. Any reason not to consider 450/360 models?

Karl740 said:

I'm still considering my options and what's available. I have looked at the CXs as running bikes are a bit more readily available, but I am still drawn to the CB. Any reason not to consider 450/360 models?

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The CB450 is an awesome choice, and easier to work on than the 4 cylinder CB's. Here's mine...



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Nice, I'm a fan of the Brown. I really like the way that looks...

It's actually orange...


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Tidy example. Other than engine size is the rest of the bike the same as it's bigger brothers? Frame, wheels etc

540Nova said:

It's actually orange...

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Orange? Really? On my computer it shows to be a beautiful Rootbeer. Very nice bike, and I'm really partial to 450's, great little runners....

I've had a look at the 750s. Not keen on the oil tank and prefer the triangle in the frame to be clear. Is there any basic options to do this?

Karl740 said:

I've had a look at the 750s. Not keen on the oil tank and prefer the triangle in the frame to be clear. Is there any basic options to do this?

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All such things are possible with enough time / money / skill... in this case the oil tank is just that.. a small tank, it could be replaced with a similarly sized tank elsewhere, ie in the seat hump. That gives you the problem of where to hide the electrics and battery, so one solved problem causes another. Not impossible, but not simple either.

Alternatively, choose a model which doesn't have a separate oil tank, ie 400/4, Z650 etc etc, makes life a lot easier if you want the open triangle look.

ie like this... using a shallow tray under the seat for the electrics and a battery in the seat hump..

First pic is of my friends Z650 café project, second is my own Norley showing the battery placement under the seat.

Bevelheadmhr said:

All such things are possible with enough time / money / skill... in this case the oil tank is just that.. a small tank, it could be replaced with a similarly sized tank elsewhere, ie in the seat hump. That gives you the problem of where to hide the electrics and battery, so one solved problem causes another. Not impossible, but not simple either.

Alternatively, choose a model which doesn't have a separate oil tank, ie 400/4, Z650 etc etc, makes life a lot easier if you want the open triangle look.

ie like this... using a shallow tray under the seat for the electrics and a battery in the seat hump..

First pic is of my friends Z650 café project, second is my own Norley showing the battery placement under the seat.

Click to expand...

That's probably past my skill set at this point and an extra job I could do without. I'm keeping my eye out for what's available and narrowing my options as and when I come across things I would struggle to overcome/don't like. I do like the Xv monoshock 81-83 but they seem to be rarer than hens teeth. Do the 500/550 have the oil tanks in the same place or are they just panelling?