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DO THE TON Sponsors => Sparck Moto => Topic started by: Sonreir™ on May 19, 2017, 15:13:07

Title: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 19, 2017, 15:13:07
Many of you know that I've been tinkering with this idea for a while. The Honda twins don't often generate enough power at idle, which really kinda cramps my plans for an EFI system at some point in the future.

So... time to solve the problem of anemic charging. When it comes to alternator/generators, three things affect the output.

The easiest electrical option would be just to increase the strength of the magnets within the rotor. Unfortunately, new rotors would be difficult to manufacture and I don't want to get into the intricacies of milling out rotors to attach new magnets. We can still revisit this if we need to, but I decided to table it for now.

So these leaves us with modifying the stator in some way. We made a couple of adjustments here. First, we eliminated three of the six mounting holes. This frees up room for more copper. Ultimately, the voltage and the current are going to be sort of a self-balancing situation, due to Ohm's law and the implemented voltage regulator, so we'll tweak those variables later, if needed. Basically, more copper = more power. Whether it comes as current or voltage, we'll worry about later. "Try it and see" is where I'm working from right now.

Additionally, we've changed the number of poles on the stator from six to nine. By going with three groups of three, we can more easily implement a three phase setup. In a single phase setup, there are two output wires from the stator. Each wire represents one end of the circuit, and as the magnets approach, and then depart, the center line of the windings, voltage increases towards a maximum positive amplitudes and then reverses direction and reaches a maximum negative amplitude.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Simple_sine_wave.svg/1024px-Simple_sine_wave.svg.png)

Three phase works a bit differently. There are three output wires from the stator. Each of these wires represent one end of a circuit, with the opposite end of each of the three wires, joined together into what's known as a star configuration. You can also wind three phase as a delta config, but I've opted for star since it's a little easier. Functionally, I'm not expecting a big difference between the two, but we can experiment later if this first go doesn't work out. Anyway... because of the configuration of the poles and the windings, there is never a point where zero power is being produced by the alternator. This should provide us with steadier output from the alternator and hopefully help overcome the charging issues from which these machines suffer.
(http://www.autoshop101.com/trainmodules/alternator/altimage/3phase.gif)

That's the idea. Looks like everything is fitting up OK, so time to start winding copper...
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Maritime on May 19, 2017, 15:19:06
Nice, I'm following along.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: advCo on May 19, 2017, 15:56:19
Right on. Prototypes look good. Looking forward to seeing results once there's some copper on there.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 19, 2017, 15:58:07
Right on. Prototypes look good. Looking forward to seeing results once there's some copper on there.

Very tight fit. I ended up taking off about .008" around the outside edge to fit it in the cases.

Thanks again for the help with the drawings!
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Flugtechnik on May 19, 2017, 16:39:35
What motor are you testing this out on?

Since you got rid of 3 of the mounting bolts, does that mean you will be attaching the stator and the stator cover with the same bolts?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 19, 2017, 16:48:35
What motor are you testing this out on?

Since you got rid of 3 of the mounting bolts, does that mean you will be attaching the stator and the stator cover with the same bolts?

This mockup is on my 360 motor, but my 360 is apart for other reasons. Once I get the winding finished up, I'll need someone with a running Honda twin that cares to test things out.

And yeah, the cover will mount with the stator using the same bolts. I suspect I'll need a standoff or something similar, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. :)
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 16:48:44
Looking good.
I'm curious about cover mounting as well?

How were the prototypes made? Laser? Are they flat?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 19, 2017, 16:51:37
How were the prototypes made? Laser? Are they flat?

Pretty flat, yup. Water jet cut, I think? They're 0.75" thick.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 16:53:20
Water jet makes more sense!
I can't see that being laser cut and staying anywhere near flat haha.
They look good.

Is the original that tight on the rotor?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 19, 2017, 16:59:04
Is the original that tight on the rotor?

It's pretty close, but not quite as tight, no. I'm expecting a little rubbing (that situation occurs on the OEM unit, too), especially as things warm up and expand a bit. For the purposes of electricity generation, as close as we can get the windings to the magnet, the better.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 17:04:01
That's what I figured.
I'm excited to see how it goes.

You might go in with some sandpaper and smooth out the corners a bit so that when it touches it doesn't gouge up the rotor?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 19, 2017, 17:09:18
You might go in with some sandpaper and smooth out the corners a bit so that when it touches it doesn't gouge up the rotor?

I was wondering if that might be a good idea or not. Thanks. I'll probably buzz it with the Dremel a little.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 17:19:54
In the future you could alter the file a bit to radius those outside corners and save the hand work if it works out.
Title: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: farmer92 on May 20, 2017, 07:08:28
Not sure if you mentioned what it was made of, i know making the whole thing out of iron would be way heavy, but if you could make the cores of your windings out of iron or steel, it would increase the field through your coils. I'm sure you know this already though. What is the weight of one of these?
Looks like a factory fit in there, nice.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 20, 2017, 13:53:27
This version is 21.9 oz (621g) without the copper on there. The production version will be made from laminated sheets of high nickel steel, which should drop the weight a little.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 19, 2017, 13:39:27
Matt what is the anticipated ac voltage at idle?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on Jun 19, 2017, 13:45:10
We're aiming for about 60W at idle. There are a few variables we can play with during the manufacturing process, and if the first couple of attempts aren't checking the boxes, we have other options we can try.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 19, 2017, 13:54:05
We're aiming for about 60W at idle. There are a few variables we can play with during the manufacturing process, and if the first couple of attempts aren't checking the boxes, we have other options we can try.
We checked our cl200 and we are getting 15v on the pink, 9v yellow, and 5v white at idle. Pathetic. What does the 360 stator put out?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on Jun 19, 2017, 14:01:37
The 360 stator is about 15% better output than the 200. We're aiming for another 40% over that.

It's all very rough numbers, though, because there are so many variables in place. We're also making the move to three phase instead of single phase, so that will probably have a significant effect as well.

When it comes to the windings, we have the option of winding in delta configuration or start (we're starting with star). Then we can go with more windings of a higher gauge (increased voltage output), or fewer windings of a higher gauge (better current, but lower voltage).

Lots of things to tinker with.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 19, 2017, 14:03:30
The 360 stator is about 15% better output than the 200. We're aiming for another 40% over that.

It's all very rough numbers, though, because there are so many variables in place. We're also making the move to three phase instead of single phase, so that will probably have a significant effect as well.

When it comes to the windings, we have the option of winding in delta configuration or start (we're starting with star). Then we can go with more windings of a higher gauge (increased voltage output), or fewer windings of a higher gauge (better current, but lower voltage).

Lots of things to tinker with.
So needed!


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Grazz256 on Jun 19, 2017, 20:32:27
Custom alternator to run custom injection on an old bike? I love it :)
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on Jun 20, 2017, 03:01:48
Custom alternator to run custom injection on an old bike? I love it :)

Long term plans. We'll see how it goes, but it's nice to have a goal/dream.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 22, 2017, 08:19:23
Matt we would like to test it for you. Have you seen this https://youtu.be/6rqE6XGx7Fo


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir™ on Jun 22, 2017, 17:12:55
I need that machine.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 22, 2017, 20:47:55
I need that machine.
I thought you might like that!


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