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DO THE TON Sponsors => Sparck Moto => Topic started by: Sonreir on May 19, 2017, 15:13:07

Title: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on May 19, 2017, 15:13:07
Many of you know that I've been tinkering with this idea for a while. The Honda twins don't often generate enough power at idle, which really kinda cramps my plans for an EFI system at some point in the future.

So... time to solve the problem of anemic charging. When it comes to alternator/generators, three things affect the output.

The easiest electrical option would be just to increase the strength of the magnets within the rotor. Unfortunately, new rotors would be difficult to manufacture and I don't want to get into the intricacies of milling out rotors to attach new magnets. We can still revisit this if we need to, but I decided to table it for now.

So these leaves us with modifying the stator in some way. We made a couple of adjustments here. First, we eliminated three of the six mounting holes. This frees up room for more copper. Ultimately, the voltage and the current are going to be sort of a self-balancing situation, due to Ohm's law and the implemented voltage regulator, so we'll tweak those variables later, if needed. Basically, more copper = more power. Whether it comes as current or voltage, we'll worry about later. "Try it and see" is where I'm working from right now.

Additionally, we've changed the number of poles on the stator from six to nine. By going with three groups of three, we can more easily implement a three phase setup. In a single phase setup, there are two output wires from the stator. Each wire represents one end of the circuit, and as the magnets approach, and then depart, the center line of the windings, voltage increases towards a maximum positive amplitudes and then reverses direction and reaches a maximum negative amplitude.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Simple_sine_wave.svg/1024px-Simple_sine_wave.svg.png)

Three phase works a bit differently. There are three output wires from the stator. Each of these wires represent one end of a circuit, with the opposite end of each of the three wires, joined together into what's known as a star configuration. You can also wind three phase as a delta config, but I've opted for star since it's a little easier. Functionally, I'm not expecting a big difference between the two, but we can experiment later if this first go doesn't work out. Anyway... because of the configuration of the poles and the windings, there is never a point where zero power is being produced by the alternator. This should provide us with steadier output from the alternator and hopefully help overcome the charging issues from which these machines suffer.
(http://www.autoshop101.com/trainmodules/alternator/altimage/3phase.gif)

That's the idea. Looks like everything is fitting up OK, so time to start winding copper...
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Maritime on May 19, 2017, 15:19:06
Nice, I'm following along.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: advCo on May 19, 2017, 15:56:19
Right on. Prototypes look good. Looking forward to seeing results once there's some copper on there.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on May 19, 2017, 15:58:07
Right on. Prototypes look good. Looking forward to seeing results once there's some copper on there.

Very tight fit. I ended up taking off about .008" around the outside edge to fit it in the cases.

Thanks again for the help with the drawings!
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Flugtechnik on May 19, 2017, 16:39:35
What motor are you testing this out on?

Since you got rid of 3 of the mounting bolts, does that mean you will be attaching the stator and the stator cover with the same bolts?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on May 19, 2017, 16:48:35
What motor are you testing this out on?

Since you got rid of 3 of the mounting bolts, does that mean you will be attaching the stator and the stator cover with the same bolts?

This mockup is on my 360 motor, but my 360 is apart for other reasons. Once I get the winding finished up, I'll need someone with a running Honda twin that cares to test things out.

And yeah, the cover will mount with the stator using the same bolts. I suspect I'll need a standoff or something similar, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. :)
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 16:48:44
Looking good.
I'm curious about cover mounting as well?

How were the prototypes made? Laser? Are they flat?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on May 19, 2017, 16:51:37
How were the prototypes made? Laser? Are they flat?

Pretty flat, yup. Water jet cut, I think? They're 0.75" thick.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 16:53:20
Water jet makes more sense!
I can't see that being laser cut and staying anywhere near flat haha.
They look good.

Is the original that tight on the rotor?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on May 19, 2017, 16:59:04
Is the original that tight on the rotor?

It's pretty close, but not quite as tight, no. I'm expecting a little rubbing (that situation occurs on the OEM unit, too), especially as things warm up and expand a bit. For the purposes of electricity generation, as close as we can get the windings to the magnet, the better.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 17:04:01
That's what I figured.
I'm excited to see how it goes.

You might go in with some sandpaper and smooth out the corners a bit so that when it touches it doesn't gouge up the rotor?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on May 19, 2017, 17:09:18
You might go in with some sandpaper and smooth out the corners a bit so that when it touches it doesn't gouge up the rotor?

I was wondering if that might be a good idea or not. Thanks. I'll probably buzz it with the Dremel a little.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: SONIC. on May 19, 2017, 17:19:54
In the future you could alter the file a bit to radius those outside corners and save the hand work if it works out.
Title: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: farmer92 on May 20, 2017, 07:08:28
Not sure if you mentioned what it was made of, i know making the whole thing out of iron would be way heavy, but if you could make the cores of your windings out of iron or steel, it would increase the field through your coils. I'm sure you know this already though. What is the weight of one of these?
Looks like a factory fit in there, nice.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on May 20, 2017, 13:53:27
This version is 21.9 oz (621g) without the copper on there. The production version will be made from laminated sheets of high nickel steel, which should drop the weight a little.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 19, 2017, 13:39:27
Matt what is the anticipated ac voltage at idle?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Jun 19, 2017, 13:45:10
We're aiming for about 60W at idle. There are a few variables we can play with during the manufacturing process, and if the first couple of attempts aren't checking the boxes, we have other options we can try.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 19, 2017, 13:54:05
We're aiming for about 60W at idle. There are a few variables we can play with during the manufacturing process, and if the first couple of attempts aren't checking the boxes, we have other options we can try.
We checked our cl200 and we are getting 15v on the pink, 9v yellow, and 5v white at idle. Pathetic. What does the 360 stator put out?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Jun 19, 2017, 14:01:37
The 360 stator is about 15% better output than the 200. We're aiming for another 40% over that.

It's all very rough numbers, though, because there are so many variables in place. We're also making the move to three phase instead of single phase, so that will probably have a significant effect as well.

When it comes to the windings, we have the option of winding in delta configuration or start (we're starting with star). Then we can go with more windings of a higher gauge (increased voltage output), or fewer windings of a higher gauge (better current, but lower voltage).

Lots of things to tinker with.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 19, 2017, 14:03:30
The 360 stator is about 15% better output than the 200. We're aiming for another 40% over that.

It's all very rough numbers, though, because there are so many variables in place. We're also making the move to three phase instead of single phase, so that will probably have a significant effect as well.

When it comes to the windings, we have the option of winding in delta configuration or start (we're starting with star). Then we can go with more windings of a higher gauge (increased voltage output), or fewer windings of a higher gauge (better current, but lower voltage).

Lots of things to tinker with.
So needed!


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Grazz256 on Jun 19, 2017, 20:32:27
Custom alternator to run custom injection on an old bike? I love it :)
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Jun 20, 2017, 03:01:48
Custom alternator to run custom injection on an old bike? I love it :)

Long term plans. We'll see how it goes, but it's nice to have a goal/dream.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 22, 2017, 08:19:23
Matt we would like to test it for you. Have you seen this https://youtu.be/6rqE6XGx7Fo


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Jun 22, 2017, 17:12:55
I need that machine.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jun 22, 2017, 20:47:55
I need that machine.
I thought you might like that!


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Jul 26, 2017, 17:55:00
And we've found a company that will produce a prototype for us.

One wound with 16 gauge wire and one wound with 18 gauge wire should be arriving in our shop toward the end of August.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Jul 27, 2017, 08:59:41
And we've found a company that will produce a prototype for us.

One wound with 16 gauge wire and one wound with 18 gauge wire should be arriving in our shop toward the end of August.
Awesome! Just FYI we switched to a Motobatt AGM battery because the speedcell was draining too fast at idle with the 40 watt headlight.  Why do you think this was happening? I thought lithium held a charge longer?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Jul 27, 2017, 14:03:01
Awesome! Just FYI we switched to a Motobatt AGM battery because the speedcell was draining too fast at idle with the 40 watt headlight.  Why do you think this was happening? I thought lithium held a charge longer?

At rest. ;)

In use, it discharges very quickly, which is why such a small battery can turn over a large engine.

Overcoming the limitations of LI-ION on the Honda twins is part of the motivation for this project.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 07, 2017, 11:10:31
OK... got the first sample prototypes in my hands. We have one wound with 18 gauge and the other wound in 16 gauge.

The test fit didn't go so well. I completely spaced the fact that the added copper and the three tabs on the side that are no longer used are trying to occupy the same space at the same time. Going with this setup might require milling (or otherwise removing) the now-unneeded tabs.

Hmmm....
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 08, 2017, 09:03:57
OK... got the first sample prototypes in my hands. We have one wound with 18 gauge and the other wound in 16 gauge.

The test fit didn't go so well. I completely spaced the fact that the added copper and the three tabs on the side that are no longer used are trying to occupy the same space at the same time. Going with this setup might require milling (or otherwise removing) the now-unneeded tabs.

Hmmm....
Can you mark up what you would like to mill?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 08, 2017, 10:15:40
On a 360 side case, this is what we'd be looking at removing.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 08, 2017, 12:07:34
Ah!!! So this should work on a 175 case with no problem?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 08, 2017, 12:10:44
I'd be interested to find out. I suspect similar modifications would be necessary?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 08, 2017, 12:24:17
I'd be interested to find out. I suspect similar modifications would be necessary?
Will let you know...will this work with your standard reg/rect?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 08, 2017, 12:37:11
Nope. It'll need our new three phase unit.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 10, 2017, 11:10:44
Nope. It'll need our new three phase unit.
Matt need this system in a bad way yes will will need to mill the case tabs.  What is the max charge the battery would receive and could we manage a LIPO batteries max charge?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 10, 2017, 11:26:09
Check this out https://youtu.be/CFGep99h7fQ


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 10, 2017, 13:03:58
If you wanna be one of our test platforms, lemme know and I'll get things setup and on the way to you.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 10, 2017, 20:51:27
If you wanna be one of our test platforms, lemme know and I'll get things setup and on the way to you.
Absolutely! Would consider it an honor!


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 11, 2017, 08:57:52
Matt can a reg be made to smart charge each LIPO cell? https://youtu.be/Vq7ShNGRuxI


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 11, 2017, 11:14:31
Technically, yes. Feasibly, no.

Most companies have opted to include cell-balancing technology along with the battery. EarthX (the brand we carry) was one of the first to start doing so and most of the major manufacturers have started doing it as well. Generally, if the battery is advertised as not needing a special charger, the electronics are usually inside the battery.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 11, 2017, 13:55:37
So... Tex... you want the 18 gauge one of the 16 gauge?

I'm expecting the total output of the 16 gauge to be better, but the 18 gauge unit should come on sooner in the RPM range. With any luck, both should be making usable power at idle, though.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 11, 2017, 14:17:12
So... Tex... you want the 18 gauge one of the 16 gauge?

I'm expecting the total output of the 16 gauge to be better, but the 18 gauge unit should come on sooner in the RPM range. With any luck, but should be making usable power at idle, though.
Let's go counterintuitive and do 18 with the usable power at idle.


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 11, 2017, 14:22:49
That's right bigger is not better even in Texas lol


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 11, 2017, 15:47:11
Can you post a picture of the 3 phase reg/rec with dimensions. Zo÷id is function having to follow form lol...


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 11, 2017, 16:24:49
Sure thing. Might take a couple of days. Home PC is down right now.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 11, 2017, 21:33:56
Sonreir what do you project the DC voltage to be at idle?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 12, 2017, 10:20:03
It's hard to say. I tried running the calculations, but without knowing exactly how strong the magnets are in the rotor, it was sort of best-guess territory. If we see mid-13s (using LED headlights), I'll be pretty happy. If we break the 14V mark, we'll need to watch voltage at high revs and be sure the regulator is handling things OK.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 12, 2017, 10:44:11
It's hard to say. I tried running the calculations, but without knowing exactly how strong the magnets are in the rotor, it was sort of best-guess territory. If we see mid-13s (using LED headlights), I'll be pretty happy. If we break the 14V mark, we'll need to watch voltage at high revs and be sure the regulator is handling things OK.
Ok we are trying to have Zo÷id tested and ready for Barber. I have another 175 case that we can mill out to test with...I have a LONG list of problems/opportunities to tackle before we leave... we have our other Sparckmoto reg rectifier mounted where the key switch use to be. As you can see we are building the shortest wiring loom ever. We have the headlights on two dedicated on off switches with one switch has a bright lower white Led with the Top Yellow Led. The other switch is an overtake light and then with the first switch off the brights come on both top and bottom...yea we fancy. Lol.

Here is our biggest problem. The speedcell 4 cell small pack original will run the bike no problem but will not charge fast enough to keep up with the head light draw using our current charging system.  The speed cell does not have battery charging balance technology.  As of right now the speed cell is mounted in the front headlight. That would be an ideal place unless it blows up.

I am going to attach Zooids headlight to the HO stator we have mounted on our CL and test it tonight. It currently powers the Jeep LED headight on bright with the taillight with no problem.   


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 12, 2017, 10:58:30
I finished up the soldering on the stator last night. I'll get it into the mail along with a new R/R in the next day or so.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 12, 2017, 11:18:16
I finished up the soldering on the stator last night. I'll get it into the mail along with a new R/R in the next day or so.
Sonreir can you also make a harness from the stator to the reg mounted at the key switch and leave us 2' of red and green to mount to our fuse box?  Where we can be plug and play?  I can get you lengths and pictures later.


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 12, 2017, 11:22:26
Yup. Just grab me some measurements and I'll have it ready to go.

Also, I'll be sending the 16 gauge unit. I discovered the wrong way to mount the new units when testing out the 18 gauge version, and the 18 gauge stator is no longer functional.  :-[ :-X :-\
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 15, 2017, 10:15:06
Yup. Just grab me some measurements and I'll have it ready to go.

Also, I'll be sending the 16 gauge unit. I discovered the wrong way to mount the new units when testing out the 18 gauge version, and the 18 gauge stator is no longer functional.  :-[ :-X :-\
Did you get the measurements? I put them on Zooids string.


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 15, 2017, 11:43:57
Uh, no. Sorry.

How long did you need the wires to reach? I'm looking for total length from alternator to regulator/rectifier.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 15, 2017, 18:23:05
Uh, no. Sorry.

How long did you need the wires to reach? I'm looking for total length from alternator to regulator/rectifier.
39" from alternator to reg/rec.  Then 2' for the green Red to the fuse box. Thank you!


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 15, 2017, 18:24:08
No problem. There's a black voltage sensing wire as well. I assume that will be running to the fuse box, too?
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 16, 2017, 11:17:42
No problem. There's a black voltage sensing wire as well. I assume that will be running to the fuse box, too?
Please


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 09:50:07
Speaking of insulating. Does this fuse panel need to be insulated also?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/cb3dc8bd1b9802a1c29561ab8a5471f3.jpg)


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 10:59:43
Not unless you plan on building a submarine. :D

12V is rarely enough voltage to short out due to moisture. The primary concern is corrosion, so I try to keep my electronics from totally inundated, but a bit of water now and then won't do much harm so long is it dries off sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 11:58:15
Not unless you plan on building a submarine. :D

12V is rarely enough voltage to short out due to moisture. The primary concern is corrosion, so I try to keep my electronics from totally inundated, but a bit of water now and then won't do much harm so long is it dries off sooner rather than later.
Just want to make sure. Ok for testing purposes here is the current equipment
2 Morimoto Modpod LEDon low 160mA  on bright 580mA ea.
1 Morimoto Min Modpod LED 50mA on low 180mA

Total .37 amp on low and 1.5 amp on high

4.44 watts on low 18 watts on high.

https://www.theretrofitsource.com/led-lighting/daytime-running-lights/morimoto-mod-pod-led-lights.html

https://www.theretrofitsource.com/led-lighting/daytime-running-lights/morimoto-mod-pod-mini-led-lights.html


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 11:59:13
Very respectable.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 12:07:47
Very respectable.

So for the lights we are only drawing 1.5 amps per hour. Shouldn't the stock ac generator be keeping up?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 12:10:40
If that were all the power that were being used, then absolutely.

Stock alternator is good for about 110W when new, maybe 90 or 100 now.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 12:28:44
So on our bike we have one module of a Dynatek Dyna S for electronic ignition maybe 50 watts?  The panel maybe 2 watts? The lights 18 watts. Anything else to consider?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 12:35:22
Tail light should be about it. Everything else would be momentary such as the horn and turn signals.

Might be worth running an Ammeter between the negative terminal of the battery and ground (inline, disconnect the battery and use the Ammeter to complete the circuit) and performing a measurement.

With everything turned on and the bike not running, you should see about 6 amps. Most multimeters will read up to 10A, so you might be able to get away with that.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 13:04:00
Tail light should be about it. Everything else would be momentary such as the horn and turn signals.

Might be worth running an Ammeter between the negative terminal of the battery and ground (inline, disconnect the battery and use the Ammeter to complete the circuit) and performing a measurement.

With everything turned on and the bike not running, you should see about 6 amps. Most multimeters will read up to 10A, so you might be able to get away with that.
So what is the power factor of a typical motorcycle charging system to determine how many watts a system will generate?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 13:12:16
Manufacturers generally try to design/select an alternator the produces just enough to run the system. Anything over what's needed is just waste.

I recall reading that the Honda twins were 110W and started in 1974 they went up to 120W. Rotor changes, maybe? Not too sure on the specifics.

Generally, the alternator should have about 20W leftover for charging the battery.

On a CB360, headlight is 35W, coils are about 60W together, 7W for the tail light, and then another 9W for all the gauge bulbs. That's 111W already, but that number will drop when the bike is running because the coils pull less power when the engine is turning. I can't remember what the exact dwell is, but assuming it's 120░ of crank rotation, we can drop the power requirements for the coils to about 50W when the riding. This brings us to 101W, with about 19W leftover for charging.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 13:16:57
I am trying to get to an exact correlation based upon actual VAC generated. Here is the calculator and they have a power factor box for a range of 0-1 http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Volt_to_Watt_Calculator.htm(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/8b0726dca446d33cd8b904467ac8ad0e.png)


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 13:22:35
Wattage = Volts x Amps.

Power factors don't usually apply to motorcycles because we're generally concerned about things on the DC side of the equation. There are some losses when rectifying from AC to DC, but they're usually less than 10% with modern electronics.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 13:42:55
So the higher the VAC the more rapid the charge? So let's say that we have 35 vac times 6 amps = 210 watts and let's say we produce 70 vac times our 6 amp requirements and we will produce 420 watts therefore charging in 1/2 of the time?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 13:56:44
So a 100w system / 35 VAC=2.87 amps to sustain a current charged battery


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 14:14:09
Not that simple, unfortunately.

Alternators produce Wattage. That's a combination of both Voltage and Current, and the two are interchangeable because Wattage = Voltage x Current. If your alternator is putting out 110W, it could be 11A at one Volt or it could be 11V at one Amp, or any combination that adds up to 110W. The actual combination you see will be determined by Mr. Ohm and his famous law.

Let's say you hook up your alternator to a circuit with four Ohms of resistance. We know that Ohm's Law is as follows:
Current = Voltage / Resistance and we also know that Watts = Current x Voltage. Now we just need to figure out the numbers that satisfy both of those equations.

Current = Voltage / 4
and
110 = Current * Voltage

From the first equation, we already know that Current = Voltage / 4, so let's sub that into the second equation (Algebra is fun!) and we get:
110 = Voltage^2 / 4

Simplifying gives us 440 = Voltage^2 or approximately 21 Volts.

Plug it back into the top to get Amps and we have 5.25. Double check ourselves: 21 * 5.25 = 110? Check. 5.25 = 21 / 4? Check.

And to make things even more complicated, in a permanent magnet alternator system, the Wattage output of the alternator is changing along with the RPMs of the engine. This is where the voltage regulator comes into play and also why we don't usually care too much about the AC voltage readings. Most voltage regulators for permanent magnet alternators are a "shunt type". They work by monitoring DC voltage levels and consuming the additional power that's being generated by the alternator. So for the purposes of our above calculations, we can fix the voltage at a suitable level (14V is fine) and our resistance becomes variable (due to the electronics within the regulator).

Anyway... not sure if that answers your question or not... I sort of got off on a tangent, I guess.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 14:21:40
So a 100w system / 35 VAC=2.87 amps to sustain a current charged battery

For lead acid, at least, most batteries like to see at least an additional Amp of charging capacity within the system. Batteries will have their own internal resistance that changes with charge. As the battery gets topped up, its resistance will increase, which will lower the amount of power the battery is taking out of the system. A battery with a low enough charge (and high enough capacity), may actually pull more Wattage than your alternator can supply, leading to a situation where your bike doesn't seem like it's charging because a dead battery is sucking all the juice instead of the components you're trying to actually power.
Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 26, 2017, 14:29:26
Not that simple, unfortunately.

Alternators produce Wattage. That's a combination of both Voltage and Current, and the two are interchangeable because Wattage = Voltage x Current. If your alternator is putting out 110W, it could be 11A at one Volt or it could be 11V at one Amp, or any combination that adds up to 110W. The actual combination you see will be determined by Mr. Ohm and his famous law.

Let's say you hook up your alternator to a circuit with four Ohms of resistance. We know that Ohm's Law is as follows:
Current = Voltage / Resistance and we also know that Watts = Current x Voltage. Now we just need to figure out the numbers that satisfy both of those equations.

Current = Voltage / 4
and
110 = Current * Voltage

From the first equation, we already know that Current = Voltage / 4, so let's sub that into the second equation (Algebra is fun!) and we get:
110 = Voltage^2 / 4

Simplifying gives us 440 = Voltage^2 or approximately 21 Volts.

Plug it back into the top to get Amps and we have 5.25. Double check ourselves: 21 * 5.25 = 110? Check. 5.25 = 21 / 4? Check.

And to make things even more complicated, in a permanent magnet alternator system, the Wattage output of the alternator is changing along with the RPMs of the engine. This is where the voltage regulator comes into play and also why we don't usually care too much about the AC voltage readings. Most voltage regulators for permanent magnet alternators are a "shunt type". They work by monitoring DC voltage levels and consuming the additional power that's being generated by the alternator. So for the purposes of our above calculations, we can fix the voltage at a suitable level (14V is fine) and our resistance becomes variable (due to the electronics within the regulator).

Anyway... not sure if that answers your question or not... I sort of got off on a tangent, I guess.
I get it. It is like water flow. For example when designing an irrigation system we use 5 Feet per second as a maximum speed limit through the pipe.  You can go faster but your friction loss increases and you may have water hammer in your toilet.


I am over simplifying things down to understand the Honda family joules. Fixing the VAC to the max we produce and working the equation backwards from there to arrive at how many amps are truly available on a stock cb175 to keep a battery charged. Weren't they worried about overcharging the lead battery and therefore split one generator leg just to supply the headlight?  Matt should Zeke go into Mechanical or Electrical Engineering?


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Title: Re: Honda Twins - Three Phase Alternator Project
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 26, 2017, 14:59:12
I get it. It is like water flow. For example when designing an irrigation system we use 5 Feet per second as a maximum speed limit through the pipe.  You can go faster but your friction loss increases and you may have water hammer in your toilet.


I am over simplifying things down to understand the Honda family joules. Fixing the VAC to the max we produce and working the equation backwards from there to arrive at how many amps are truly available on a stock cb175 to keep a battery charged. Weren't they worried about overcharging the lead battery and therefore split one generator leg just to supply the headlight?  Matt should Zeke go into Mechanical or Electrical Engineering?

Yup. When I was first learning electrical stuff, comparing it to plumbing was exactly what I did. The alternator is your water pump. The resistance is the diameter of your pipes (low resistance is big pipes). The amount of water flowing through the system is current. The system pressure is voltage. Your battery is the water tower that the pump feeds. Your pump is only good for so much water output and this can be used as pressure, flow, or a certain related combination. If the pipes are too big (resistance is low and too much wattage draw on the system), then your pressure and your flow will be augmented by the water tower until it runs dry, then you're on whatever the pump can supply directly. But on the other hand, if your pump is too powerful for the system you might break some pipes or even your water tower.

For your testing, I would skip the VAC side of things. AC checks are only useful to see if your alternator is functioning and, on their own, they are not useful for determining alternator output. The reason for this is because the internal resistance of your multimeter is very high and you probably don't know the exact value. You might be able to use another multimeter to figure it out, but then we start getting into Inception-like scenarios. Measuring current directly from your alternator may cook it, so I don't recommend that choice either. And, ultimately, it's the DC side of the equation that's running the bike and charging the battery, so we should be measuring DC. :P

For the battery, overcharging was not the same consideration in the 70s as it is now. The battery was actually specifically chosen because of the beneficial effect it has on helping to regulate power within the overall system. You may notice that some of the early twins and singles don't even use a voltage regulator and that's because of how the battery acts. A battery with an overly large capacity is more resistant to overcharging than one with a small capacity and so you'll often see batteries with a 12Ah capacity put on relatively small motorcycles, even those without electric starters. With a flooded cell lead acid battery, there will reach a point when the battery is fully charged and the voltage differential between your circuit and the battery exceeds about 1.5V. For instance, lets say your system voltage is around 15V and your battery is floating a full charge at 13.5V. When the voltage differential between the plates in your battery exceeds that threshold, the additional power your system is generating goes into electrolysis. You start splitting the water molecules in your electrolyte into Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms and additional power also gets lost as heat. You had to periodically top them up with water. So the batteries were specifically chosen to compliment the charging system so that they could help ease the burden on the voltage regulators, which still had a ways to go before they could handle the task on their own. A modern voltage regulator will almost always permit the use of a smaller battery on an older bike because the battery is no longer serving in the capacity of an auxiliary voltage regulator. The inverse is also true: Modern batteries don't play nicely with older voltage regulators.

For Zeke, I would pick whatever interests him the most. I work for the College of Engineering at Oregon State and both are growing programs with good placement after graduation. It's purely anecdotal, but it seems the EECS (Electronic Engineering and Computer Science) students seem to do better in our neck of the woods because of the presence of Intel and Microsoft. I'm not sure there's a"bad" engineering choice at the moment. Our economy seems to be in a transition away from manufacturing, but we still do a heck of a lot of design. All the stuff you see manufactured overseas is still being designed and engineered over here.