Oh YEAH to Oh NO...Project Kool-Aid, up in smoke: Shorai signs onto DTT!

that is awesome... i want a round battery, like the shaft of a baseball bat... would be so much easier to tuck away on a chopper or custom build!
 
as will I... with 8 bikes in my house it may get $$$!
do you guys sell HD replacement batteries? i could move a ton of those for you... have installed 5 this week alone! i do not knwo why people use tenderrs when they do not know how to use them... just ruins batteries!
 
Hey guys just wanted to say that I have refereed this post over to Honda Twins as well because there have been a few people over there ask about these batteries as well.

Good read as well thanks. :D
 
JRK5892 said:
Do you guys sell HD replacement batteries? i could move a ton of those for you... have installed 5 this week alone! i do not know why people use tenders when they do not know how to use them... just ruins batteries!

You Bet! Our new #3 (largest so far) series of LFX will be out about end of April. They'll come in 24, 27, and 36Ah Pb Eq capacities. Here are some pics, enjoy! (no further specs quite yet, sorry, but full info and pricing should be posted on our site before April 15th)

LFX #3 case size, with base terminals shown (for horizontal mount). These will aslo accept "L" terminals (included in package) and SAE Automotive terminals (optional).

lfx3-baseterm-500.JPG


With beefy "L" vertical terminals attached, in front-facing mode (side facing also possible)
lfx3-lterm-500.JPG
 
slightly off topic here...
Damn, those vids on page one of the liION batteries exploding creeps me out! Our patrol cars are equiped with video cameras, like most are these days. The audio is recorded from a remote wireless mic we wear on our gun belts. One day, I get in my patrol car to go to work, and reach up to get my mic out of the charger on the headliner, and it was stuck. It turns out the battery was all swollen, and had swollen the case of the mic into the charger. It was still charging and functioning though.

Turns out this wasn't an isolated incident according to the county garage.

Damn, had that thing exploded right next to my head while I was driving, I would have probably parked my patrol car into a tree and killed myself.
 
Just to clarify, the batteries you are using for that application are Lithium Ion, whereas these are Lithium Iron Phosphate. The Lipo batteries do not explode, they just melt/ burn in case of malfunction. The referenced picture actually showed extreme melting, but did not burst due to pressure. Lipo4 batteries actually differ significantly from Lion batteries in this regard. Actually another safety feature of the Lipo4 battery is its inability to explode, unlike lead acid or Lion.

That battery in your mic could have exploded, though...bad deal!
 
Another aside, I was out at Ringo's house tonight, and we were poking around his CB550. It happens to have the exact same thyristor R/R as Kool-aid! This makes the swap to the Mosfet R/R incredibly easy on the CB550, and possibly other models as well. The wire colors are the same. Here is a diagram for wiring to the Yamaha R1 R/R. It shows the connector well on the R/R. Three yellow stator wires, one power, one ground....simple!

rr_mod_plug.jpg


Someone post up if this will fit other models. It appears that it works for Yamaha XS as well.
 
Ah, sure enough. Green and red are even on the correct sides! Direct swap, awesome.
 
Hi all - one of the TriumphRat guys linked this thread - hope I can join in your fun.
Will look forward to checking out the rest of the site.


t71ford said:
Another aside, I was out at Ringo's house tonight, and we were poking around his CB550. It happens to have the exact same thyristor R/R as Kool-aid! This makes the swap to the Mosfet R/R incredibly easy on the CB550, and possibly other models as well. The wire colors are the same. Here is a diagram for wiring to the Yamaha R1 R/R. It shows the connector well on the R/R. Three yellow stator wires, one power, one ground....simple!

rr_mod_plug.jpg


Someone post up if this will fit other models. It appears that it works for Yamaha XS as well.


Not intimate with your particular R/R but is it this type with the integrated Connector plug, with smaller .25" input terminals and 0.32" output terminals?
Like this?
!C!KWwZwB2k~$(KGrHqV,!g8EzeDbSPJfBNB7n+3Mb!~~_3.JPG



You can get connector for a MOSFET R/R from Eastern Beaver that will fit directly into that OEM harness connector
http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/CNA250-TL/cna250-tl.html


a_5P250_305K_ends.jpg

The Male one is the one you would fit to the new R/R - the female if you had to replace damaged OEM harness connector
The male is to install on free cable, unlike the VTR unit which is hard-mounted to the R/R body.
I supplied an FH008 R/R with this connector installed for a 900RR
The FH0008 is a good choice replacement candidate for this OEM SCR R/R
- that model is found on 06-07 CBR1000 and 06+ CBR600 and you can just remove the connectors and install this one.
(that regulator model has cables, as opposed to integrated connector)


I will caution that nearly all post-install issues when retrofitting to a MOSFET R/R are due to improper connection of the connector terminals
This is a high current circuit and the quality of the connection from cable to terminal must be stellar
On all of mine, I initially crimp AND then solder


If I can correct a couple of mis-perceptions from earlier:
MOSFET R/R and SCR R/R both work in fundamentally the same way, in that they shunt the negative going cycle directly
i.e. they effectively short the stator winding.
This results in a significant amount of heat generated in the SCR units - high power dissipation!
But the MOSFET runs significantly cooler, employing the same 'shunt' across the generating coil.
The shunt current is actually about the same - however the difference is that the internal resistance of the conducting MOSFET is extremely low;
that means that for the same current, there is much less power consumed in that device.
You can literally put your hand on a MOSFET R/R that has been running for some time - do NOT try that with an SCR R/R.
It is the heat that actually ultimately kills the SCR R/R and why there is such a high incidence of failure pretty much across all marques.


The related part to that is application on a Race Bike - when you remove the load from the headlights, a Shunt R/R actually works HARDER than when there is a higher load from the bike
i.e it has to shunt MORE current with less load.
This makes the SCR MUCH more likely to fail on a race bike with little load, relative to a Street Bike.


To the failure in question - my belief is that the R/R failed and unregulated voltage was delivered to the Battery
Most R/R SCR will fail short, at least initially - that typically results in a lesser voltage output because it is a dead short across the generator;
however some will fail open - and then the output voltage will climb substantially.
At full RPM this can be quite catastrophic to any battery!
(Gen curvey SV650 R/R typically fail in this mode and often fry the Igniter Module as a consequence)
To the contrary, I can't see a mechanism whereby a battery can cause a failure to an R/R - well perhaps if the battery was completely shorted?
(honestly don't know if this particular plate spacer issue described earlier would have created this scenario)


I was one of the early adopters of MOSFET technology in R/R Retrofits and authored a thread on TriumphRat on the advantages - this thread has been references on literally hundreds of other forums in link-backs
I hope you find it useful.
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html


I have a Shorai in my Triumph incidentally - I think it is fantastic piece of Technology.
I also met David (ShoraiTech) - they are local Bay Area company - and I have to say the sincerity & candour you see displayed in his posts is quite genuine and comes through even more strongly in personal interface.
 
Tyler came over last night and gave me the low down on Shorai. I have to say that I am incredibly impressed with this company's attitude and outright care for their customers. The way they handled the situation is unlike most out there today. Definitely made a future customer out of me.
 
DEcosse--Welcome to the forum! Lots more good info there. Thanks for sharing all that, and for some more real world experience with David, and Shorai.

While I agree with you that a likely cause of the failure was a failed SCR R/R, there is the failure mode that David himself described of possible internal short circuit, which could cause the exact same issue to the R/R due to high current load through the R/R, not to mention catastrophic results to the battery. Not knowing the exact components he was describing, and also in part to the very disfigured nature of the battey post fire, I was not able to really determine anything on my own to that end. Shorai has the battery for their inspection.
Also, the Lifepo batteries are sensitive to charge rate in ways that lead acid is not. Again, I am not positive, but I believe this could have been a contributing factor to the failure of the R/R. That R/R was oem equipment, quite possibly original, but I cannot believe that it is entirely coincidental that this failure occurred on the first ride out with the Shorai installed where it had been working properly with the lead acid battery.
You are correct in that the MOSFET and SCR regulators work fundamentally in the same way, but I was actually describing the operation of the FET transisitor vs the thyristor diode to achieve this same operation. They are very different in how they actually close the shunt circuit. The FET design is much faster and less current subservient than the thyristor diode is, allowing it to run cooler as current does not remain shunted as long (obviously talking about very small time differences that add up, eventually to more heat and larger charging rate variances).
As I have stated earlier, though, I have since switched to the MOSFET R1 regulator, and have relocated it to provide further cooling. I am convinced that with these changes, as well as a safer, better built Shorai, this concern will not be repeated.
The Shorai battery is truly revolutionary technology, not only from the performance aspect, but for safety and environmental reasons as well. I think this entire issue was a hiccup in the R&D process, and in the end, everyone will benefit!
 
Amazing thread!!!!!! I haven't been turning up much on this subject until I found this thread! YAAYYYYYY!!


t71ford -- Thanks for doing all the footwork on this one because it really opens quite a few more doors to the versatility in my build right now. Awesome.


Have you performed any research comparing the A123 lifepo4 batteries and the shorai? I've read about the differing technologies but haven't heard of anyone comparing them both with similar implementation (like on a motorcycle)??


Again, great tech thread!!!!
 
Thanks, man. There has been quite a bit of comparison between the A123 batteries and the Shorai. They are essentially the same sort of thing, just the mat is rolled into a cylinder in the A123, and left as a flat piece in the Shorai. Of course, there are the other noticeable differences, such as the carbon fibre case and stuff like that. But all in all they are pretty similar, at least as far as the storage capability. The A123 batteries are used freqently in motorcycle applications, and have the same charging system requirements as well.

As an aside, I should hopefully have my new Shorai sometime in the next 2 weeks. They got held up in the natural disasters in Japan, so have taken longer than expected to restock with the new, upgraded style battery.
 
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