Ton with style - 250 => shiny parts pics page 6

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Hi folks,

So, I got myself a GN 250 as a cheap runabout while my beemer is off (the GN replaced a Honda Helix but I'd better not mention it here or else I could get beat up)

Unfortunately, I found this site out and now, I have to hit the ton with it.

Anyway, come on 250's rider, let's share !

I don't think hitting the ton with a 4-stroke 125 is feasible, am I wrong ?

As for the bigger bike, I don"t see it as much as a challenge.
Maybe for up to 350 it is still not that easy ?
I don't know, I use to ride 650's ...
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

About my particular bike :

It's already doing 130 kms per hour at it's peak power (if asked gently) and can go past the red line (if you ask less gently)

I calculated that by switching the sprockets by the biggest and smallest available (from 15x41 to 16x39) I'll need 9400 rpm to hit the ton.

Obviously it will require more persuasion to climb there at that speed ...

It already has a small windscreen that I angled as much as possible to make it more aerodynamical and a lower than standard bar.
I dropped the fork tubes 20 mm and they can go a little lower but not much

Maybe I need clip-on bar ?

Maybe I need a taller rear wheel (currently 16" with a 3,50 tire (dunno how to figure the perimeter of that one)) ?

Maybe I need a little extra oomph from the engine (a little more compression, maybe replace the CV carb by a pumper of the same size) ?

I probably need a lot more fairing !

I'll go for the bigger front / smaller rear sprocket and see from there
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

You're in for quite a challenge if you want to break the Ton with it. 22hp, 300lbs (+rider), and poor aerodynamics are your biggest issues. Not much you can do for performance beyond jetting/carb work, and free'er flowing exhaust. As for the other two... lose as much weight off the bike as you can safely do, and make yourself as small as you can.

My '72 Yamaha DS7 (2stroke 250) is in essentially the same predicament. Top speed on it is factory rated at 85mph. In fact, my Hayabusa will (almost) go as fast in first gear as the DS7 will go flat out. But it's such a hoot to ride around town (60mph feels like you're flying, and I can drag the pegs at 20mph) that I have no desire to break the Ton with it.

Hoofarted is our resident Salt Flat/Dry Lake LSR guy. I think he'd be your best resource for info ;)
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

Pics! Pics! Pics!

Kidding. I agree about the fairing- the air pressure hitting you and the bike is huge on a little motor. And if I'm not mistaken, the diameter/weight of your rear wheel shouldn't affect your top speed. Acceleration, yes but not top speed. Unless maybe the drag from the contact patch on the 3.5" tire?

You can figure out the diameter of any tire and wheel combination but the easiest way I have found is on www.denniskirk.com. Look for the tire that fits, and usually they list the "inflated diameter".
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

GN 250 is a custom/cruiser style bike.
22bhp will DTT but not easily (and probably only on a downhill with a tailwind ;D )
you'll probably need narrower tyre inflated to at least 36psi, clip-on bars and rear-sets.
narrower seat, tiny mirrors (bicycle ones in board to keep it 'legal') the big 'windbreak' indicators will have to go
If a single cylinder, pushrod motor, 19bhp BSA 250cc C15 could do 115mph in the 1970's, 22bhp should be able to go at least as fast today
(and my Royal Enfield 250 would do around 103 stock)
It's not easy though and you would have to be committed to doing it
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

speed, budget, reliability. Pick two.

Honestly though, with some good work the bike should be able to do it. I'd start with doing some tune up work; timing, valves, carbs; everything should be gone over. a perfect running stock bike is the ONLY place to start modification IMHO. do that, see how fast it will go, and then consider what you want done.

heck, a stock bike with proper aerodynamics (aka full fairings) should probably be able to break 100 without much trouble.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

crazypj said:
....................If a single cylinder, pushrod motor, 19bhp BSA 250cc C15 could do 115mph in the 1970's....................

PJ, who managed to get 115 out of a C15? That's quite an achievement from a slow boring pushrod single. We built one with a hot cam and goldie silencer and high comp piston back in the sixties and it wasn't much faster than stock and that wasn't a big number. Of course we had no idea what we were doing back then as high school Ton up boy wannabe's

There have been a couple of AHRMA racers based around B40 or C25 lumps that went pretty fast and made way more HP than stock, but they are different beasts altogether.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

That reminds me, back in the day we could buy swept back pipes, and all manner of tuning parts and tanks and seats for most of the popular bikes of the day. Maybe that was because they were plentiful and we all wanted teh same look. It suprises me that there aren't more small companies supplying the CB250/360/500 etc market today.

Maybe they don't believe that they can make quality parts at a price that modern cafe race builders would pay. Why is there so little supply for what appears to be a large enough market?

What about someone supplying say CB350/360/450 jet kits or someone making decent pipes and mufflers. I'm tired of seeing bikes with turnouts and slash cuts and other abominations. Is it a lack of a uniform idea of the "look" that's keeping suppliers at home?
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

Thanks for all the comments.

The rear wheel size is the next lever I can use after the bigger front, lower rear sprocket to try and match peak power rpm and target speed.

As I said, with only the uprated sprockets available over the counter, the motor will have to be 1000 rpm past the red line to hit the ton

I just took pics of the bike but as I used my cell phone camera, they are of no use.

I know the "fast, cheap, reliable : pick two" routine but I am not planning on extracting more power from the engine so it has to get to the target with bigger transmission and aero modding.

I'll do some better pics but not until next week end as I am gonna go on a small vacation with my family.

Regarding what needs to be done on the bike first, I have to overhaul the clutch and adjust the valves. A fancy plug is on the cards too.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

Like others have said... it'll be difficult but not impossible. Changes in gearing and rear tire size will probably be necessary, but that alone won't do it. Higher gearing (bigger front sprocket, smaller rear sprocket, and/or larger diameter rear wheel) also makes the engine work harder. At some point, the horsepower is going to come up against the drag caused by the air and you're not going to go any faster.

Top speed runs (at moderate speeds, less than 180 or so) have mostly to do with power, gearing, and the co-efficient of drag.

For drag, this means reducing the aspect of the bike. Looking straight on, you want your bike to look as small as possible. What areas are exposed, should be be tailored to look like the "streamlined body" in the following following pic:
200px-14ilf1l.svg.png


Avoid the half-streamlines pic as this is actually an airplane wing and will cause strange things at high speed (depending on the location and orientation). :)

Use whatever you need to get rid of blocky edges and other "bad" shapes. Duct tape works quite well as a temporary solution. A properly built fairing will do you a world of good.

As for gearing, you sound like you have this well underway. Don't overgear it though. As I mentioned earlier, the longer the gears, the more power it takes to hit a certain RPM. Pick a setup that will let you hit your target speed at redline. Engine modifications may improve your redline, so take that into account.

For more power, you have a few options. First of all, you'll want to stack your mods accordingly. All modifications done to the engine should take (the most) effect in a fairly narrow portion of the power band. Lets say your redline is 10,000 RPM. You want to target the mods to kick in around 8,000 RPM or so.

Option 1: Camshaft
Let me premise this by saying that I don't know a cam manufacturer that offers alternatives to the stock GN250, but if you can find one, get the most radical grind you can.

Aftermarket cams work by changing the amount of time the intake and exhaust valves are open for every rotation of the crankshaft. This is called the duration and it is usually measured in degrees. Stock cams are built mainly with noise and environmental factors in mind. A radical cam (one with higher duration) will open the valves sooner and close them later. What this means in real-world terms is that as the speed of the engine increases, the inertia of the gases entering and leaving the engine increase as well. As their inertias increase, the gasses will start to compress themselves, improving volumetric efficiency. Think of it this way, if two people are walking very closely in single file and the first person stops (the air stopping against the piston after entering the cylinder) then they will get bumped a bit. If you repeat this same scenario but both people are running, then the first person gets bumped a lot more! The same thing is happening with the air coming into your engine. The fast-moving air from the intake will squish itself into the cylinder (at an increasing rate) but this only occurs of the valves stay open long enough. A similar situation occurs with the exhaust, only instead of pushing, the inertia of the exhaust gases will "pull" spent gases from the cylinder, allowing in additional fresh mixture.

Increased duration pushes the powerband way up on the RPM range and provides much more hp when you wind out the engine. Down side is that you're going to lose a lot of power at lower RPMs because the gases don't have enough inertia to overcome the pressures and you get what is known as reversion (exhaust gases coming from the pipe back into the cylinder and unspent fuel/air mixture going back into the intake). Make sure your bike still has the power at the low RPMs to take you into the high RPMs where the cam will be of use. Proper gearing should help to alleviate this problem. Duration aside, many cams will offer increased lift as well. Make sure your valve springs can cope and that there is no contact from the valves to the pistons.

Option 2: Compression
Increase compression will increase horsepower throughout the RPM band by increasing the thermal efficiencies. Too much compression leads to detonation. 12:1 is doable with a good squish area (custom pistons) and decent cooling. Make sure you run premium gas.

Option 3: Displacement
You may consider this a bit of a cheat, but you can increase the displacement of your bike by boring out the cylinders and/or stroking it. Almost all motorcycles (that I know of) will run higher bore than stroke. This is called oversquare. Engines with more stroke than bore are called undersquare. Generally speaking, oversquare engines provide more power at higher RPMs whereas undersquare engines provide more power at lower RPMs. Undersquare engines are usually a bit more efficient though, allowing increased compression. It's not likely you'll be able to drastically change this characteristic if your engine though, so consider it academic.

Option 4: Spark Advance
Advancing the ignition timing is a good way to get a few ponies at higher RPM. As the engine revs, the movement of the pistons begins to "beat" the speed at which the flame travels through the fuel/air mixture. This results in wasted power because the inertia of the moving piston begins to outpace the pressure of the exhaust gases. The solution is to light the mixture sooner so that more pressure is available to push the piston back downward and it isn't relying so much by being pulled down by rotation forces of the crankshaft or other pistons. Too much advance will blow up your engine because it drastically increases dynamic compression and heat. Run premium or race fuel to help.

Option 4: Intake
Velocity stacks are probably your best bet for high power. Stacks work by introducing a vortex into the incoming air. This smoothes out the airflow coming into the carburetor and allows, not only, for easier tuning but more total air flow into the engine. When all the air molecules are heading in the same direction and not bumping into one another, you can get more of them into the same space. More air = more fuel = more power. The length of the stacks will matter. Generally, shorter stacks are better for high RPM and longer stacks will aid lower RPMs. There's some math that will help you in this decision, let me know if/when you need the details. As for the port and polish, I advise you skip it. A little but of turbulence after the carb venturi helps to keep the fuel atomized and on most bikes, the intake ports are oversized already.

Option 5: Exhaust
Bigger is not always better. I don't know where the following number comes from, but I've been told and I've read that 300 feet per second is about ideal for exhaust gas speeds. Numerous bends and/or constrictions will affect this, so try to keep your exhaust straight, centered, and pointed toward the back of the bike. The reasons to tune the exhaust have, again, to do with the inertia of the air. Keeping the exhaust gases moving well helps to "pull" more exhaust gases from the engine. When calculating how big the pipes need to be, first determine the displacement of a single cylinder and multiply that by 4.25 (this is roughly the increase in volume the air/fuel mixture undergoes during combustion). This is how much exhaust is produced per cycle, per cylinder, per half RPM in a given minute. The formula for determining air flow speed is "v = 4q / A" where v is the air speed if the exhaust gas in meters per second and q is the volume of gas in cubic meters. Solving for 'A' will tell you the necessary cross section of the pipe in meters squared. After determining the ideal size of piping, ensure that the exhaust pipe is at least long enough to allow the exhaust gases to be contained within the exhaust during the time it takes for a second pulse to enter the pipe again. Remove your mufflers. Finally, if you're using 2 into 1 headers or something of the like, all this changes.

Option 6: RPMs
Increasing your redline will increase your horsepower. Today's sportbikes don't make considerably more torque than the bikes of 30 years ago, they just happen rev up to 18,000 RPM instead of 9,000. That directly translates into usable power. The "redline" is not always a hard and fast measurement where the engine suddenly blows up or stops working. Many bikes got a set a "redline" simply because they stopped producing power past that level. There are a number of things which affect this. First, I mentioned earlier that a mellow cam will result in low power at higher RPMs and that is often a contributing factor. The other major obstacle to high RPMs is the inertia of the engine itself. It takes power to go faster and the a traditional four-stroke engine works, it robs itself of that power that faster it goes. Pistons must switch directions over a hundred times per second and it takes a lot of energy to not only get them moving, but also to stop them. Valve springs need to be light because, they to, get compressed and decompressed many times per second. Make the springs too weak and the valves don't close when they need to. Too strong and they work against the engine opening them and add more to the weight. Piston rings dragging on cylinder walls as they travel lead to further losses. High viscosity oils cause losses as well. There's no one magic bullet for increasing RPMs, but losing as much weight as possible from the internals of the engine is an excellent starting point. Consider forged aluminum pistons with shorter skirts, titanium spring retainers, and shot peened chrome moly conn rods as starters.

Option 7: Forced Induction
Forced induction is likely to provide you with the most hp per $$$ spent. It's not uncommon to safely double the horsepower using more efficicient FI options such as turbos. Superchargers are generally easier to install, but not as efficient as a turbo. Nitrous Oxide can add a quick boost of power as well. All have their hazards and/or complications though. Reliable charging is much easier on an EFI engine, but as you're likely to only be concerned with WOT operations, tuning a carb to handle this shouldn't be too bad.




Those are just a few of the options available. There are probably countless other things I have missed, but I will also say that your engine is only as good as its weakest link. It operates as a single unit and to think you can make the whole thing run better by replacing only a part or two is perhaps a bit of a mistake. If you're serious about this endeavor, get ready to spend some cash; speed doesn't come cheap. I also advise getting the engine blueprinted. There is a lot of loss due to parts being "in spec" but not perfect.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

teazer said:
PJ, who managed to get 115 out of a C15? That's quite an achievement from a slow boring pushrod single. We built one with a hot cam and goldie silencer and high comp piston back in the sixties and it wasn't much faster than stock and that wasn't a big number. Of course we had no idea what we were doing back then as high school Ton up boy wannabe's

There have been a couple of AHRMA racers based around B40 or C25 lumps that went pretty fast and made way more HP than stock, but they are different beasts altogether.

Friend of mine bought it as a 'unfinished project (purple metalflake, with yellow stripes ;D )
Frame was lowered, all the available tuning parts from USA, huge valves, lumpy cam, massive monoblock. (compared to stock)
We put it together and it went like stink, quicker than any 500 Triumph and almost as fast as a Bonneville
Smiths Speedo didn't go high enough, it stopped at P (as in MPH in 6:00 o'clock position)
Got a local Rover SDI to check speed :mad:
Cranks only lasted about 1,500 miles though so it got a bit expensive for a couple of schoolkids (even though you could get running bikes for five to ten pounds, that was a lot of money back then)
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

Look for a decent fairing and seat. Don Vesco's stuff from the '70's worked really well, the Roberts slipstreamer seat was pretty good too if you don't want the boxy look of Don's seat. I agree about the partial streamliner stuff - if you've ever been in a crosswind with one of those things, it's not much fun...
Take as much weight off the bike as you can - and maybe you too.
Before digging into the motor with a lumpy cam, big carb, etc., make sure it is tip top - good rings and valves, stuff like that. Maybe all you need to do is freshen up the motor and get a high flow air cleaner and less restrictive exhaust.
Don't gear for 110 mph if you will never be able to get your bike in top gear.
I think your goals are attainable.
Pat Cowan,
Vintage Motorcycle Fiberglass
by Pacomotorstuff
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

buy a used cbr600 for two grand and you can do 150+

itll be cheaper and more reliable.


why say this? simple... because the greatest thing ive learned after putting all the money I did into my bike is that you have to restrain yourself. its easy to buy things to make it the way you want, but often a lot harder to look at the bike and enjoy it for what it is; a vintage motorcycle that was never really designed to go that fast.

now... do i regret spending all the money i did on my bike? No. But i wouldn't ever sell it. its value is much more to me then it would be to any other person. If that thought is enough to let you continue modifying your bike, then carry on and leave the cbr600 to another person looking to go "fast"

cheers.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

The target is not impossible but it is rather impractical. You mentioned no engine modification so that takes most issues right off the table. To go fast you have to make enough power to overcome drag. Drag increases with the square of speed and is proportional to CD x Area. To go twice as fast takes 4 times as much power.

So to do the ton on 20 something HP means a very slippery shape with minimal area and low coefficient of drag. You will need full streamlining front and rear and a small cross sectional area. Start with smaller wheels and shorter forks and shocks. Find ways to tuck in really tight under a low screen. get really aerodynamic bodywork and it's possible. of course that same bike can't be ridden on teh streets, so that's a bit of a bummer.

OK so that's a little heavy handed, but you follow the logic here. Taller gearing only works if you have enough HP to overcome the drag. gear it any taller and the bike goes slower.

Take some time to look at the speeds that small street bikes manage. For example teh current and older model EX250s, older Ducati singles, VT250 Hondas etc. A Ducati single can easily top the ton with some engine work and the right screen or fairing and that's with more power than the GN.

It's not that a 250 4 stroke single CAN'T do a ton, but the GN with a stook motor is probably not the best place to start if that's where you want to go.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

Interesting read. If you are not planning engine mods then you will have to come up with some very slippery streamlining. And remember how the air leaves the rear of the bike is just as important (or perhaps more important) as what you present to the air. Drag is the killer. You can gear it whatever way you want but if it isn't slippery you aren't going to do it.

Years ago I raced a VanVeen Kriedler. 50cc and timed in the Isle of Man at 114 mph. So its very possible to top the ton without a lot of HP. Airtech makes some very slippy LSR fairing but they are big bucks. There are a number of manufacturers that would have something to suit. I prefer the Peel Mountain Mile fairing. It covers you hands and forearms and gets them out of the wind. I think Bret at Glass from the Past may be able to help you. He used my Peel for a mould and it turned out good. It may be a bit wide for what you want but it fiberglass and it can be cut up and narrowed.

This is the fairing I'm talking about.
http://youtu.be/jmbKDIKDKFo

This is Airtech streamlining on John Noonan's turboed Busa. Very slippery. But for some reason he dropped (lost the front end) and the Mojave Mile a couple of months ago at approx 240 mph.

20728110150155528869228.jpg


This is my effort to reduce drag (within the class rules). 500cc pushrod single sidecar. Best run at Bonneville last year was 126 mph. Photo is copyright Zane McNary.

110514137.jpg


And most streamlining efforts pale when it comes to jack Costella's 198 mph 250cc streamliner bike. Note how the tail closes to smooth out the airflow. Think like that if you are building a seat.

5050b.jpg


And this is my effort with the Norton at Bonneville a few years ago. I never did get to find out if I was on the right track. The carburation was giving me fits and the weather screwed things up.

img2917jpg1.jpg


Topping the ton with a small displacement engine (that wasn't designed to top the ton) takes a lot of ingenuity. Which is one of the reasons I love small engines. Anybody can run out a buy a 'Busa and go 180 but store bought HP is not as fun as making it yourself.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

Thanks for all the useful comments.

Engine mods are not out of question.
They are just the second part of it.

I didn't realise those extra 20 mph would be that hard to get but I'll give it a shot.

Today, trashing the bike, I had a wobble at 80 mph. Then I checked the tire and it is all cracked and fitted backwards !

I am currently buying a rear wheel wich would be 17" instead of the standart 16" so better tire availability.

As for the fairings, I was thinking Ducati SS lookalike.

As for Ducati's, with all due respect, I think a 4 valver as more power potential so if they can be made to hit the ton so can my GN.

Regarding today's "high" speed trial, the bike can reach 80 mph but if going up hill, revs quickly start to drop altough it is at peak power wich means it is not undergeared as I previously thought.

So some engine tune up needs to be done on top of the gearing.
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

Regarding the 17 inch rims, I'd suggest 18's and use fairly narrow tires like a 2.75 front and 3.00 back, or something like that. Yer not puttin' a lot of power to the ground with thet puppy and there is some decent rubber to be found with an 18 inch rim as well.
The Duke 900 fairing is way too big and if you want the magic ton, you'll need to look at a full fairing - TZ Yamaha, Vesco, TD1 is pretty good, stuff like that. IMHO, the Peel Fairing, though very good aerodynamically, will absolutely swamp the bike with its size.
If you gave a geographical location where you're at in a previous post, so sorry, I missed it. I build all of the bodywork I've mentioned and reside in Georgetown, ON, Canada, if that helps...
Still sounds like a fun project. Don't let the naysayers get you down - you're on the right track.
Regards,
Pat Cowan
 
Re: Ton with style - 250

That's true Pat- and 18's are fairly easy to come across. Advantage: I have a pair of 18" Suzuki snowflake mags for sale if you think they will fit. The rear has a new sprocket, bearings, and Avon tyre mounted already too.
 
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