Plasma / Electronics Install

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OK, off topic... but I can't seem to find any decent info online.

I'm mounting a plasma over my fireplace (eventualy... bare studs right now) and I'm putting all the speaker wire in the walls with connector boxes at 4 corners.

I'm trying to come up with some kind of creative solution to what to do with my amplifier and digital cable box.
Don't want to make a nice looking room look stupid by having a big tower of electronics off in one corner...

Anyone have a similar problem or any ideas?

I considered mounting all the equipment below the fireplace but it would probably have to be too high off the ground... now I'm at a creative block.
 
It's your lucky day! I have been in A/V for 10 years and ran my own low-volt design & install company for the last 3. The sort of info I'm about to give you, I typically charge for. ;D Unfortunately, I have too many questions to give you the best answer. What stage of construction is the home and/or room in? Is this a new build? Is it a basement finish? A room remodel or are you "retro" wiring the system into a finished space? What is the layout of the room and all adjacent rooms and/or closets? Have you already purchased the gear you intend to use? The various features of components will have a huge impact on how the system is integrated. Without any of this info, I can tell you that 99% of the integrations I do in custom homes, involve all components in a remote location like a closet or cabinet. With a solid AVR, you can integrate all of your sources and send a monitor link to any location in the house, i.e. the plasma above the fireplace. This can be done with 3 coax (RG6). That will give you an RGB (RedBlueGreen) component video feed to your monitor. Component is analog but supports HD and progressive scan (480p). With all the gear in the closet, a well programmed RF (radio frequency) remote will allow you to communicate through doors, walls and windows. You said you had bare studs above the fireplace, I don't know how many open walls you currently have but ANY open wall is a huge opportunity. There are some crucial things you should do before rock goes up. Once rock goes up those things are exponentially harder. For example, don't skimp on wire. I typically use Monster Cable MC-500 for speakers. It's about 30 cents a foot retail but it's made of high quality, medium gauge copper, is "counter-wound," well insulated and has a dielectric center. All of these things increase sound quality and decrease signal loss. Skimpy wire strains both your amp and your speakers, causing overheating and damage in some cases. Also, you said you planned to put in 4 boxes. That's fine if you plan to run a stereo receiver with an A/B switch but it will be pointless for surround sound. For that, you'll also want to consider the center channel and a sub. I know this all sounds complicated and expensive but it really isn't. I can retro wire and integrate a basic 5.1 system for well under a thousand bucks with my labor included. I'd love to help you out if you want this project to turn out top notch. Low volt is certainly the sort of thing you can DIY but it helps to get some pointers if you're unfamiliar with the technology. I install high-end integrated whole-house systems, to include custom automated lighting, distributed audio/video and whole house media. I like taking these complex systems and making them usable and unobtrusive to families. I'll answer any questions you may have.

Josch
 
If you have the chance to plan out the wiring of your house or basement, I'd strongly suggest integrating Cat5 (network) cable with your plans. I now have it strewn all over my 100 year old house. I use it for everything...TV, audio, computers, camera systems, home automation, etc.
 
Represto said:
If you have the chance to plan out the wiring of your house or basement, I'd strongly suggest integrating Cat5 (network) cable with your plans. I now have it strewn all over my 100 year old house. I use it for everything...TV, audio, computers, camera systems, home automation, etc.

Without a doubt. Cat-5 structured throughout the home and terminating in a panel near any electronics you intend to integrate in the home is priceless. However, cat-5 isn't a great way to send a standalone audio or video signal from point A to point B in a home. It requires an analog-to-digital conversion at the source end and the opposite at its destination. Cat-5 is better utilized for the transmission of A/V in a dedicated digital whole house system and no matter how you shake it, you're going to need analog speaker wire from an amp, whether that's a receiver in some remote location or an interface on the wall, to the speakers themselves. Cat-5 is incapable of transmitting speaker-level signals.
 
Whoa, hah. It IS my lucky day. hah. I'll take it piece by piece:

What stage of construction is the home and/or room in? Is this a new build? Is it a basement finish? A room remodel or are you "retro" wiring the system into a finished space?

It's basically a new build. I'm remodelling half of my garage but I put up new walls, so I'm clear for any kind of wiring.

Right now there are 3 exposed walls. The 4th is partially finished with 2 of the said 4 boxes with 14 ga wire for the right rear and right front speakers.

What is the layout of the room and all adjacent rooms and/or closets?

The room is at the back of my garage, so it has 2 external walls, one wall to the garage, and a third wall is a 3 ft concrete wall with a set of stairs going to the main level of the house... So no closets to hide the components in.

Here's a quick sketch:

Untitled1.jpg


Have you already purchased the gear you intend to use? The various features of components will have a huge impact on how the system is integrated.

I know I'll have my Phillips plasma and PS3 (best bang for the buck Blue ray player ;) ), and a Rogers digital cable box. As far as the amp I'm not sure yet. For now I'll probably be using my sony 5.1 unit.

Also don't have any speakers bought yet. I have a 5.1 Polk Audio setup in the basement (that's where I'm getting the PS3, Sony Amp and plasma), but I plan on replacing everything I take out of the rec room eventually so I figured I'd leave the speakers down there.

Also, you said you planned to put in 4 boxes. That's fine if you plan to run a stereo receiver with an A/B switch but it will be pointless for surround sound. For that, you'll also want to consider the center channel and a sub.

I forgot to mention that I am planning on running the 5th wire (for the centre speaker) to behind the plasma, and mounting a centre speaker above the tv... Should it go above or below? Or should I just angle it toward the couch?


I really appreciate the post man! And any info you have that night be able to help me out.

My biggest problem is how to hide away the head unit and such. I can stick the PS3 anywhere I can run the wire (good old bluetooth) But everything else, I assume, would have to be point'n' click'able with a standard remote...


Thanks again!
 
You'll want a Harmony remote from Logitech. They make fancy RF models, but chances are your gear will end up in line-of-site. One remote for everything. I swear by them for my setup.

They're all about the same. I have the 720 model which has a color LCD and recharging station.

I think you'll end up with a nice free-standing cabinet in the corner for your equipment. Doesn't have to be anything big - just a footprint big enough to hold standard audio gear, and tall enough to get your stuff into it with enough room for some future stuff.

You'll want to run HDMI from the Rogers tuner to the TV. Should be the only cable you need from the audio gear to the TV. Then optical from the Rogers box to your amp etc. all in the cabinet.

How high and big is the TV going to be? Is there a mantle over the fireplace? How big will the centre channel be?

You might have the option of using the speakers in the TV as your centre channel - some will do this. Does the TV allow for a PC hookup? You might want to run the requisite cable for that too for future. Probably DVI or another HDMI. I'd run as many HDMI cables to the TV as it has hookups for future connections, unless you want to get into an HDMI switching unit.

While you're running speaker wire, you might want to run a rear center channel as well for future use.

Oh, and out of curiousity, have you considered putting the TV on the wall to the right of the diagram? Ideally a TV should be at eye-level when seated. Also, for home theatre the rule of thumb I've read is you want the TV to be sized at 1/2 the distance from your eyeballs to the screen. I.e. if your eyes are 8 feet from the screen, you want a 48" screen.

My basement TV room is 13' wide, and I have a 50" Sony LCD RPTV which sits on a console. It's about 17 inches deep, making the screen about 20 inches from the wall. When I sit on the couch opposite the TV, my eyes are likely 20" from the back wall, cutting 40" out of the 13' wide room. So my eyes are about 9.5 feet or so from the screen.

The 50" is as small as I'd want in my space - 65 would be awesome ;)

The other benefit of doing this would be a clear line of site to the fireplace wall, instead of having a couch or whatever right in the middle of the room.
 
You'll want a Harmony remote from Logitech. They make fancy RF models, but chances are your gear will end up in line-of-site. One remote for everything. I swear by them for my setup.

They're all about the same. I have the 720 model which has a color LCD and recharging station.

I have serious doubts about universal remotes... I've had a few and they always wipe their settings after a while (plus I still can't use it for the PS3... Unless it's bluetooth as well). But it's something to look into anyway.

I think you'll end up with a nice free-standing cabinet in the corner for your equipment. Doesn't have to be anything big - just a footprint big enough to hold standard audio gear, and tall enough to get your stuff into it with enough room for some future stuff.

You're probably right about that. As much as I was trying to avoid having an ugly cabnet in the corner to house all of the electrics, it's getting down to crunch time now (have to have the room finished by Christmas) and it seems like the easiest, cheapest and most straight-forward way to do it.

You'll want to run HDMI from the Rogers tuner to the TV. Should be the only cable you need from the audio gear to the TV. Then optical from the Rogers box to your amp etc. all in the cabinet.

I'll have to take a look at the rogers box. Right now I have 3 or 4 cables running from my TV to each piece (one for the PS3, one for the Rogers box, and yes, one to a computer).
Thanks BTW, I completely forgot about running the computer hook-up. I have to run a cable for the audio and video of the computer to the amp and TV. Computer will sit along that hip wall in the back of the room closest to the garage wall.


How high and big is the TV going to be? Is there a mantle over the fireplace? How big will the centre channel be?

TV will be as low as possible without looking dumb. It's one of our main issues right now. It's a big TV... somewhere in the 50-58 range. Can't remember right now.
And I'll look into using the TV speaker as a centre, didn't think that was possible either. Maybe then I could wire up a 5th speaker from a regular 5.1 'out of the box' setup as a rear channel... hmmm...


I haven't really cinsidered putting the TV anywhere else but the fireplace. The room is kind of awkward.
Compared to the picture I put up before there are doors going into the garage, and a huge glass door going out into the yard...

The other benefit of doing this would be a clear line of site to the fireplace wall, instead of having a couch or whatever right in the middle of the room.

I kind of like this idea... I'll run it past the family and see what they think. Maybe put the couch on the blank wall (garage wall) TV between the door and the window (if it fits... or "budget" a smaller plasma for the room ;D ). The room makes it very hard to figure out any sensible seating other than one couch, stuck at the bottom of the stairs.

RecRoom1.jpg


RecRoom2.jpg


** the blank space in the hip wall goes down a flight of stairs to the basement **
 
Based on the room layout, it does seem that your gear is going to end up in a piece of furniture, as Tim said. That doesn't necessarily have to be a floor standing rack, though. I did a custom home in Breckenridge where the A/V components were housed in an enclosed shaker style coffee table with sliding doors facing the sofa. They too had only a few components and the dimensions of most coffee tables are deep enough for one component and wide enough for two. In your case, the amp on one side and the PS3 & Rogers box stacked on the other. I wouldn't worry about over heating with this configuration, I instructed my clients to slide the door open to the amp when they were watching a movie or if they kids were playing video games. Furthermore, this configuration created a very convenient place to stuff the game controllers when they weren't being used. Now, I did have to have the sparkies set me up with a 110 plate in the ground where the table went, and monitor cables had to be run through the floor joists to the tv wall. Furthermore, the coffee table was pretty much relegated to that spot in the room, so it has its drawbacks. I don't know what kind of sub-floor you're working with either, this may not even be an option. Here's an example of that table.
MRN-TLC100_med.jpg


Also, the Harmony's are great devices and easy for the family to use. Like most advanced universals, they are macro driven which has its drawbacks. If the macro sequence is disrupted in any way - RF interference, break in line-of-sight (for IR models) or a component that was manually turned off - the macro does its job but doesn't effectively perform the operation. With these remotes, I spend A LOT of time training the entire family how to use it comfortably. IF used properly the Harmony remotes can be a godsend for family members that aren't comfortable with electronics. What separates Harmony is their user-friendly PC driven user interface. You plug the remote into the PC w/ a USB cable, install and run the software, tell the wizard exactly how you have your system wired and which models you're using and it does the rest. Furthermore, you remote's configuration is backed up on your PC, so even if the remote was "wiped," you could simply re-flash it.

For your AVR, the sony may work fine. Depending on the model and age, it may or may not switch HDMI. If so, 1080p is at your doorstep and you should buy the biggest damn tv that fits aesthetically to maximize all those pixels. If not, component video (3xRG6) from the receiver to the tv will support 480p/720p/1080i analog signals. The difference in video quality from a 720p component feed and a 720p digital HDMI feed is negligible. The difference, however, between a 720p and a 1080p feed on a large tv is striking. To take full advantage of the blu ray player in your PS3, you're going to want to send HDMI to the tv. You don't necessarily need to upgrade your amp to do this either. You can run a dedicated HDMI monitor out from the PS3 to the TV and pipe the audio via DigOptical into your amp (which I'll guarantee your sony has). This, however, creates a second switching process. The TV input must be changed along with the AVR input when you want to run your PS3. This problem is a minor inconvenience and can be solved by a remote (with macros, of course!) and it will save you some money, which is a good thing because that HDMI cable is not going to be cheap! As far as receivers go, I stand by Denon and Yamaha until the day I die. They both use extremely high quality construction and internals and consistently offer the most features for the price, period. A $300 - $400 Denon or Yamaha receiver will sound amazing, have most (if not all) the features you'll need and will last a lifetime. Audio equipment doesn't antiquate as quickly as other consumer electronics and with the industry settling on HDMI as a standard, a solid AVR could realistically last you 20+ years if you buy the right unit.

As far as the TV goes, if you're planning to watch blue ray, get as much tv as you can afford, and is aesthetic. I am not a huge supporter of the "eye fatigue" argument in home theater. Right now, I'm sitting 18" away from a 19" monitor and do so countless hours a week! So, if your sofa was 14' away, you could support a 15' TV! I'm just kidding but I wanted to illustrate a point. In the room you've so clearly diagrammed, your TV size is going to be limited only by aesthetics. If it were my job, I'd find the biggest tv that would allow me to mount flush with the tops of the two windows and create a some what even 3-6" frame of wall space between the sides of the tv and the window and the bottom of the tv and the fireplace. Don't worry about height for optimal viewing. Any $150 plasma mount will allow you to tilt down about 15 degrees or more which is usually more than enough to optimize viewing. Also, I don't know what direction the fireplace wall faces but coverings are going to be crucial for those windows.

As far as furniture placement goes, in a case like yours - it is what it is. It looks like your sofa is going to have be in the middle of the room, with space behind it for the stairs and computer desk. You can have individual chairs on either wall adjacent the fireplace but viewing won't be optimal. You could place a chair on only one of the side walls and utilize a cantilever wall bracket for the plasma that will allow you to angle it horizontally and down toward one corner of the room. The tv can be pushed back flat against the wall while it's not being used. These brackets, however, aren't cheap. Furniture placement is dependent on the number of people you envision watching the tv at the same time and your options are limited. A sofa for 3 or 4 viewers in a pretty optimal position and either one or two flanking chairs with slightly less optimal viewing angles.

I hope this helped!

Josch
 
As a Rogers HD PVR owner, I like to keep it far away from me and behind a closed sheet of glass. It's noisy.

One advantage of having the sofa more centrally located (i.e. off the wall) is you can get better sound from your surround speakers. My couch is against the wall, with the surround speakers to either side. Would be better if they were behind me.
 
Tim said:
As a Rogers HD PVR owner, I like to keep it far away from me and behind a closed sheet of glass. It's noisy.

One advantage of having the sofa more centrally located (i.e. off the wall) is you can get better sound from your surround speakers. My couch is against the wall, with the surround speakers to either side. Would be better if they were behind me.

+1
 
Tim said:
One advantage of having the sofa more centrally located (i.e. off the wall) is you can get better sound from your surround speakers. My couch is against the wall, with the surround speakers to either side. Would be better if they were behind me.

Good point!


I like the idea of the coffee table, would be very trick. And I do have access to the floor joists b/c I raised the floor 5 inches off the concrete (to bring it up to the level of the outside door, and to remove one of the 4 steps coming into the room = more floor space).
In fact, I still have to plane the floor, so some of the plywood will be coming up and being secured again... Would be a good time to run the wire to the computer too.

I'm worried, like you mentioned, that if I ever wanted to move furniture there would be a big plug and a box in the middle of the floor, hah.
Also, with the components in the coffee table, what did you do about remotes? As in if you want to adjust the volume, or change the channel on the HD box, the remote has to be pointed at the device...

You know, I wish I would have thought about this before. I can save a bunch on wires by going under rather than up those 10 to 11 1/2 ft walls.

You guys have been a great help. I'll have a sit down tonight and see what the best option is for us.
 
For remote control, you could go with a Harmony RF model. They work on radio waves, not IR so no line of site is needed. They'll even work through walls.

Current models are the 890 and 1000. The 1000 is particularly nice for a home theatre setup. They're not cheap - sell for $200-$300 for either model on eBay.

Tigerdirect has the 1000 for $270 right now.

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4183764&SRCCODE=LSCAN&cm_mmc_o=-ddCjC1bELltzywCjC-d2CjCdwwp&AffiliateID=5BunOG6HrFA-Af5LCsNNaFZE0Oq6qg4P8Q
 
Yikes!

I didn't know they had RF models, that'd be a winner for sure.

After looking at all the info I was given, and based on how much is done in the room right now, I think what I'll be doing is a simple floating shelf... Not the prettiest / trickest, but nice enough.

I'll round up the necessary wires and run them all through the walls and leave the amp and HD box out for all to see on a floating shelf to the left of the windows, and I'll put a lamp / end-table on the floor to house the PS3, under said floating shelf, similar to the coffee table idea from Heroinymous Josch.

I'll also run the wires to the computer from the TV for video, and to the computer from the amp for sound.

For the TV wires, I might run PVC instead of just the wires, so I can add other components if I need different wires. Have this done in the basement now and it works great.

I really liked all the ideas you guys put out there, and will probably end up picking up a remote like you mentioned tim, although I doubt it'll be the fancy touchscreen, I'd rather it look like a tv remote. ;D

Sorry if it seems like after all the good info I got that I just went the easy route. But you fellas did help me along. I'll try and post up some pics when I get the room buttoned up.

Here's the latest incarnation... The windows are now to scale, as is the TV (which btw is a 52 inch).

RecRoom3.jpg


RecRoom4.jpg


RecRoom5.jpg
 
Oh, not at all, my friend. I'd like to think we helped get your creative juices flowing! That 52" is very well proportioned with the windows and the fireplace, should prove to be a cozy, enjoyable place to lounge. I forgot to mention PVC! By far the best way to future proof any system without buying superfluous wiring. Good luck and make sure to snap some pics when the job's complete!

Josch
 
BTW - what software are you using to do the diagrams?

Looks like a nice setup - looking forward to seeing pics up!
 
I just used Sketchup for the diagrams. It's simple and I've used it to design everything from entire buildings to a floppy disc. ha

I was going to use some of the drawings to get into an arc program at Dal, but they don't accept digital or cad... So I just mess around with it every now and then.

Fireplace.jpg


LesPaulGoldtop.jpg
 
I have seen the components put in the ceiling between joists. When the power is turned on then they drop down on an angle so that they can be used. They would be mounted above the TV / fireplace.
 
+1 on the Harmony remote.

I was really unsure of this thing, but one of my friends just gave it to me and say try it.

Man, it's great. As said before, disruptions in the line of site can be a problem, but mostly it's a great device. I've gone from 4/5 remotes to 1, and it works really well with the Macro. The only device which is a bit of a pain is the Xbox 360, because it has a very narrow angle for the remote (ie, +/- 10° from centerline).

Otherwise, awesome.
 
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