Project Gretta....seat action.....

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

MBS said:

I like the title of this thread "A way to waste money.." Is that what we call it? I had it wrong all this time. And here I thought I was wasting money on silly things like paying bills and food. I would still take a nice long uninterrupted ride on the bike over a steak. ;D

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haha! So would I man!

That post topic is an ode to my dear old wife who always reminds me of the vacations, fancy dinners, or presents for her that could be gotten with the money that I spend on my bikes! I just have to remind her on a regular basis, that the bikes are my therapy, and withouth said "garage therapy" this guy becomes quite the epitome of unpleasant. We all have to vent somehow, so I choose this over a shrink or meds any day!

And like you, I think that a steak and potatoes ain't got nothin on a good long ride!

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Kanticoy said:

haha! So would I man!

That post topic is an ode to my dear old wife who always reminds me of the vacations, fancy dinners, or presents for her that could be gotten with the money that I spend on my bikes! I just have to remind her on a regular basis, that the bikes are my therapy, and withouth said "garage therapy" this guy becomes quite the epitome of unpleasant. We all have to vent somehow, so I choose this over a shrink or meds any day!

And like you, I think that a steak and potatoes ain't got nothin on a good long ride!

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LOL, I hear a similar complaint from the wifey from time to time. I think for most of us here who have an obsession with these machines utilize it as therapy. I couldn't agree more! I find its impossible to think about financial struggles or work issues when your turning wrenches on your bike, time seems to fly by. I come out of my shop and its like I stepped through a worm hole thinking "I know it was light out when I came in here...how many hours, days has it been?" Then you realize a year has gone by and your still not done with your bike!

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Hi:

You seem really enthusiastic, and I like that. There are a couple considerations though.

First, the boxed swing arm idea is much better than your final solution. Rectangle tube is much better in bending loads than round tube--even when braced the way you did. So I would encourage you to reevaluate the stock CBR swing arm idea. Incidentally, you introduced a LOT of heat to that mild steel during the bending process and the welding process. I would be careful doing this.

Second, have you done the math to figure out the desired wheel rate? I may have just missed it, so if so, please ignore. First, you have to figure out what the stock wheel rate is and if it is appropriate to your application. Then you have to figure out the CBR wheel rate--which is dependent on many things such as swing arm length, coil rate at the damper, damper angle, etc. There is a very simple formula to figure this stuff out--just dig around.

Third, I really don't think gas-less welding is is the right process for this application--well, unless your tube wall is .125" or higher. But if it's that high, there will be a ton of unsprung weight. This is why I think the aluminum boxed tube swing arm is a good solution. Anyway, if you look at how people make scratch built swing arms, a gas is always involved: RocCity (TIG), Dracken1 (Nickel-Bronze brazed). Just something to consider for safety's sake.

Finally, should you reconsider the CBR swing arm, there are a couple things to think about. First is how you're going to weld all that bracing. I just don't think stick/flux core is the right solution here either. Second, consider bracing the upper damper mount differently. I attached a pic. See how the 360 frame pinches at the top? This is very bad. The cross bar is also mounted inefficiently as well because your placing a bending load across the bar. If you put a V bracing up to the corners, it should help some. No promises there.

So...Take this as a constructive post. If I didn't care, I would not have taken the time to write this.

--Chris

If you decide to

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Chris does have some good points here and safety is a major concern with anything structurally welded. I have a buzz box that I tack weld with then I take it to a pro to TIG weld it and reinforce anything questionable. If your going with the swing arm you made, it would be good to have it strength tested and any welds reinforced by a pro, at the very least you know it is strong. Same goes for welding frames. -MBS

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Oh it is indeed taken as a constructive post. The things that you mentioned, I have taken into consideration. The picture attached early in the post is only a mockup. I will show you what I've come up with while determining mounting, shock angle, and the radius of the swing arm pivot.

Here's something I came up with as far as determining shock mount location. I used a compass and determined the swingarm pivot radius and then determined where I want to locate the shock accordingly so that it isn't binding due to the pivot angle. What I have come up with is that I want to construct a mount that is located in the stock tube junction right under the tank mount. I feel that this is a stronger point to mount the shock simply because of the design of the stock frame. This of course will be reinforced and built up with plate and things like that. This would also require me to construct a shock mount on top of the swingarm to hold the aft end of the shock. It would be a raised design allowing the shock the simplest linear movement pattern.:



It will resemble in function something like this bike:



So the final product should resemble this when assembled:



Using a geometry similar to this:



Now as far as wheel rate and spring rate go, I have done a few calculations. It is hard to determine the stock wheel and spring rate due to the fact that I don't have anything stock to plug numbers with. Stock spring rate on the CBR600 is 6.4 NM. Now I weigh just over 170lbs, and according to my calculations that would require me to adjust to 6.8 Nm on the rear set up which is well within the adjustability range of the Ducati shock...and in range of it's stock specifications for the Showa that I am using. Now the Ducati 748 stock swing arm is identical in length to the one I constructed. that is 27". I did that on purpose to take a lot of the leg work out of the calculations. Further, the mounting point that I displayed in the above diagram is also almost identical to the setup that Ducati uses, only theirs is a single sided set up.

For the tubing choice, I wanted to retain the vintage feel of the cafe racers while incorporating the new performance and look of more modern set ups. I wanted to do something different. I used .130 DOM for the upper brace, and .120 for the lower. The stock Ducati is a welded tubular beast which is also made of steel, and though the CBR boxed swing arm looks aluminum in the pictures, it is also just painted steel. I understand the strength differences in boxed vs. round, and that's why I am trying to construct something that is comparable in strength while retaining its custom nature. The 600 arm just doesn't fit the bike at all. I realize that this process as a whole doesn't fit the bike really when it comes down to what the designers envisioned for it, but that's the art of customization. Lots of variables.

I have taken great care to put the gussets and braces in the correct places to accommodate the load. I realize that there are a hundred factors that come into play, and I am trying to plan ahead for them accordingly. It's indeed situation regarding safety, and that's why I am picking up my arm from my friend Brandon Q. today after is has been fully TIG welded at all joints. he is also reinforcing as he sees fit. I should have it back in about an hour. The Flux was just a mock up procedure, with full intention of re-enforcing it later once it was mostly mocked up. The reason I had to nearly fully weld the swingarm during the construction with my method is because of the nature of the tube. If you don't, the tube will tweak and the dimensions will become contorted from the heat. I wanted to get the measurements right before I finish welded it. he is also going to do a couple of X-ray shots of the welds while he is there (It's nice to have a buddy in a machine shop) to ensure that the welds are strong with no gaps.

I really do appreciate all of you guys' concerns. I am trying to do all of this the right way the first time so that an unforeseen circumstance doesn't show its ugly head down the line. I really respect you Chris, and your knowledge surpasses mine for sure as far as this bike construction goes. I am grateful for the time you took out to let me know what you think. That's really why I post on here. It's like having access to a full range of designers and engineers to bounce ideas off of. Let me know what you guys think, and feel free to suggest away.

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

put the remote shock reservoir under the seat, you'll be all the happier for it

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Thanks for the suggestion Sebatron! I would definitely do that, but I have a shock coming with the reservoir attached instead of divorced. I just didn't like all of that extra tube hanging off everywhere. It was too much! The new shock is much cleaner...should be a pic of it on page 1.

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Okay, got some stuff done today. Part of the frame is gone from the rear, I don't have pics yet though, my camera is MIA, and camera phones don't work well in the dark! I do have some other cool things going on though! Motor work motor work and motor work.

I bought a mew set of pistons that came with 1.00 over rings. I sent my jugs off and had them honed slightly to accommodate. This was due to the motor having a few miles on it, and I wanted a fresh start. I also bought a new head, cam, and valve cover from MarcW on here and started cleaning the mess out of that. new valve seals, re-cut valve seats, new gaskets, all of the goodies! I had a problem with the oil passages being clogged in another motor, so I wanted to make sure I didn't burn up another head with this bike....that is a nightmare. I also got my SS bolt kit in. I effing hate!!! the stock phillips crap, so this is a mod I ALWAYS do. Also got some pics of something I got from the DTT guys. Represent!!!

I'm still looking for a good set of cam chain slippers. I have been inside of 4 of these motors now, and they're ALL broken. I would be willing to lavish someone with love and cash if they could come up with some! Pretty please!

Anyway, work is tomorrow, but I'll be back in the seat doing some bike work on memorial day. Any day the new shock will be here, and I can mount that baby up. I also got some more argon/co2 mix yesterday, and moved the welder to dad's house so I can do some serious stuff with that. New gloves to boot!

So let me know what you guys think, and as always, much appreciation and respect to you guys!

Here's the freshly cleaned valve cover ready to paint.




The head and cam is in the bucket for some overnight soakage. Purple power rocks, but man it dries your skin out!:



And the valves, springs, keepers and all of that jazz are in the bowl:



A $12 mod. you can make a great valve spring compressor from a $10 clamp and a steel spacer from Lowes. Just notch the spacer and weld it to the clamp like so:




The bolt kit. Such a well spent $30



Here are the new pistons and rings. Love the vintage boxes!:



And finally, I've been rockin' this thing all day. I also got a patch for the jacket. This is good stuff! It draws more questions than recognition, but hey, we've gotta show our dedication, right!?



More work to come Monday. I'll keep you guys posted!

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Awesome!! Keep up the good work. Shirt looks great! By the way what is the purple stuff? -MBS

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Nice work Kiley. You are rippin right along. Yeah man on the purple power. The stuff does rock. Hey MBS it is just a degreaser. I think walmart carries it now. Or you can get it at any auto parts store. Stuff kicks ass.

Man grab up some photos of that frame all cut up. But I'm really anxious to see not only how the swingarm/shock look but the bones /frame under the ass end. The frame under the seat could get pretty sexy.

Hey man, you cut your hair! i wasn't expecting that ;D Looks good.
Way cool shirt BTW. I always enjoy giving the mods/rockers history lesson when I was asked. Depending on how much time i had I'd take em back to the crop failure. Potato wasn't it?

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Thought I sent you the slippers too Kiley!! Sorry if I missed them!! Do you need the one in case, think that is the only thing I missed, saw it when I split the cases on the second motor...

Bikes gonna be awesome!!

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Hey guys!

The purple power....sweet stuff! Works so good, and it's like $12 for 5 gallons. Can't beat that crap!

Troy, haha, my hair has been gone for a while now. I can't stand it in the summer, so I buzz it. Let it and the beard grow come cold time! Summer...buzz! I'm a low maintenance kind of guy I guess.

Marc, bro, I couldn't have asked for more from you man! the head is primo, and that's what you see getting cleaned in the pics as a matter of fact! It has nice shiny new valve seats now! You wouldn't have known any different unless I had a picture to show you, but the little short slipper that you packed up is actually half of a slipper! I know! I guarantee if you dig around in the bottom of the case you'll find the rest of it. That is so common on these guys it's not even funny! They're actually supposed to both be the same length. No worries at all! you did me right, and I truly am thankful for it. Without you I wouldn't have half of the stuff I needed! Keep an eye out in those other cases when you get to them to see if it has two slippers that are the same length. I'll be glad to buy them off of ya!

I'll have some frame pics up Monday...pulling a 24 at work again tomorrow, but I'll get them. Basically, from the downtubes behind the motor is whacked off. Gonna reconstruct new rearset mounts and seat rails. It was a scary thing to try and pull off! Moving forward though!

Thank you guys so much for the kind words. You all rock in my book!

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Guess that "short one" i found was the other half lol...

I'll check the other one as soon as I tear it down!

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

I'm pretty low maintence too. I even tried shaving my head thinking It would be even easier. No go man. The chrome dome is not foe me. I looked pretty stupid. At least that is what my wife and kids kept saying. But man it was so high maintence. I had to shave it everyday. Although, some guys look good with it. Not me. too much work.
Hey man, my wife bitched about how I clean parts too
check it:

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

I got a similar response when I baked the ceramic coating onto my cars exhaust manifold in the oven.. still hear about it from time to time 8 years later.

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

Hahaha! You guys rock!

You'd better believe I'm showing my wife this page. If I need to be committed, then I'm dragging you guys with me!

Troy, I swear that looks just like my tub last night...een down to the wal mart tile brush...same one! To her defense I did have to spend an hour scrubbing the remnants out of the tub...oh well!

And yeah, I probably look stupid too, but I don't care. I guess I'm past the point of giving a crap about what people think....but if my wife told me I looked stupid (which she does from time to time *note cut off jean overalls*), I would probably think a little bit more of it.

(by the way, in case any if you were wondering, I am NOT a redneck!)

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

My wife would kick my ass if I brought parts in to clean in the tub, she bitches when I take a shower after I've been tearing stuff down!! lol

I had to change the rear end in my truck a few months back and there was gear oil residue in the shower for like a week, she was not happy at all!! lol

I'm a number 2 guard with the clippers kinda guy myself, usually with a few high spots here and there hahahah

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

i've been a number 2 guy since i started riding... 8 years ago (time flies.. fark)
my fiancee coaxed me into going down to a 1 within a month of being together.
love it. no helmet hair doesn't suit everyone, guess i'm fortunate.

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

+1 on the no helmet hair too! I like to go to a no2 all over from time to time and almost always at least 2 on the sides. Chrome was too much work for me and i looked a little frankenstinesh. The lather and shave deff brought out the scars. When I was growing up I ran into everthing with my head. I had stitches all the time. Maybe that's whats wrong with me?? Next time I decide to go short maybe I need to try just a 1 and not lather and shave.

Just don't get caught sitting in there naked with what ever yer cleaning . Then she'll now you've got it bad. Besides it could be dangerous too ;D
You're right, it's a bitch to clean the tub afterwards. Don't know why but the grease really likes to hang on to the surface. Just got to remember to always put something down to protect the surface. Just don't let her catch you throwing out her good towels when you are done. Believe me.

Re: A way to waste money: The evolution of a confused '74 360

use "easy off BAM!" on the tub before and after - helps heaps
(might be an aus-exclusive product... but fuck it works well)