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Author Topic: For no other reason than ...  (Read 9842 times)

Offline crazypj

  • Posts: 12487
  • Split personality, I fake being smart
Re: For no other reason than ...
« Reply #10 on: Sep 11, 2011, 04:27:26 »
Sven, Honda made it work for several years.
CB/CM400 has dual chain driven balancers, bit of a pain to time correctly but they actually work quite well to reduce vibration.
 Crank is in center driving 'outside' of chain, outer sprockets turn opposite direction (draw a 'smiley' clown face with circles each end and 'nose' touching center)

 
 Pretty sure you could Google Lanchester shafts/balancers, they were developed in the 1930's

McGraw-Hill Science & Technology Dictionary:  Lanchester balancer
(′lan∑chə∑stər ′bal∑ən∑sər) (mechanical engineering) A device for balancing four-cylinder engines; consists of two meshed gears with eccentric masses, driven by the crankshaft.
 Main reason as far as I remember was to reduce material use.
 On the XL250, weight dropped more than 23lbs by adding a 4 lb balancer, all components were lighter/thinner wall and frame didn't need to be as heavy to reduce stress cracking



 
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2011, 04:38:23 by crazypj »
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'
I gave my girlfriend an orgasm the other night, but, she spat it back at me
 Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry
 Itís not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you werenít doing it  (Terry Pratchett)
CB360's,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.0
XS650,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11922.0

Offline scm

  • Posts: 244
Re: For no other reason than ...
« Reply #11 on: Sep 11, 2011, 07:33:29 »
Sven, Honda made it work for several years.
I bet, but with reverse rotating countershafts.


Quote
Pretty sure you could Google Lanchester shafts/balancers, they were developed in the 1930's
Sorry, I'm afraid you mix up two different things:

the countershafts in the Honda 400 engine are designed to balance primary forces,
hence both spin with engine speed but (both) in the opposite direction,

whereas

the Lanchester balancer is designed to eleminate secondary forces, so its counter-
shafts spin a twice the engine speed, one in direction of the crank, one against it.


Quote
Crank is in center driving 'outside' of chain, outer sprockets turn opposite direction
Yep, that's right! ;) (you just claimed the contrary in your last post)

Best regards
Sven
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2011, 07:46:16 by scm »
someone built it anyway ...

Offline crazypj

  • Posts: 12487
  • Split personality, I fake being smart
Re: For no other reason than ...
« Reply #12 on: Sep 12, 2011, 04:21:37 »
The Lanchester balancer was originally  designed for straight eight as far as I can recall. (my father explained it to me at least 45 yrs ago, I was only 8 or 9 ::) )
Because the crank was so long they had problems with them breaking so yes, it was designed for secondary forces.
Honda used a variation which was easier to explain as a Lanchester shaft
 I really thought it would be easier to find information on it but there isn't an awful lot online that I could find (probably using wrong search terms?)
BTW, I realised I had posted wrong information, which is why I changed it.
 Had to think about the way balancer shafts were driven for a minute  ;D
One thing that has surprised me when drilling camshaft on CB360 for oil passage, the amount of vibration from cam lobes was higher than expected
 
« Last Edit: Sep 12, 2011, 04:28:38 by crazypj »
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'
I gave my girlfriend an orgasm the other night, but, she spat it back at me
 Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry
 Itís not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you werenít doing it  (Terry Pratchett)
CB360's,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.0
XS650,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11922.0

Offline scm

  • Posts: 244
Re: For no other reason than ...
« Reply #13 on: Sep 12, 2011, 17:46:14 »
The Lanchester balancer was originally  designed for straight eight as far as I can recall.
Maybe, but an inline 8 cyl. engine can be fully balanced without any additional countershafts just
by using the proper crank design (one "bigbang" 4 cyl. crankshaft like the new Yamaha R1 has
(like crossplane V8 crank) connected with another mirror inverted one). Normally these long crank-
shafts (also inline 6s) suffer/break from torsional vibration.

Quote
Honda used a variation which was easier to explain as a Lanchester shaft
Well, apart from the frequency a major difference between the Lanchester balancers
and the ones used in the Honda twin (and a lot of other 1 and 2 cyl. motorcycle engines)
is that the Lanchester produces/compensates unidimensional forces, whereas the others
balance rotating forces.

Quote
I really thought it would be easier to find information on it but there isn't an awful lot online that I could find (probably using wrong search terms?)
Tried it but I couldn't find anything but brief overview on wikipedia.
Easier to find some lectures on it in German...


Quote
One thing that has surprised me when drilling camshaft on CB360 for oil passage, the amount of vibration from cam lobes was higher than expected
You mean when you machined it in your lathe?


Best regards
Sven
 
[/quote]
someone built it anyway ...

Offline crazypj

  • Posts: 12487
  • Split personality, I fake being smart
Re: For no other reason than ...
« Reply #14 on: Sep 12, 2011, 18:06:12 »
Hi Sven,
 Yep, I only have a small lathe and I had to reduce speed as there was a noticeable vibration from cam.
 My re-phased XS840 cam was even worse
Unfortunately I don't read German as I would like to find out more, maybe babelfish or google can translate into english?
 (although I've never had too much success with technical terms)
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'
I gave my girlfriend an orgasm the other night, but, she spat it back at me
 Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry
 Itís not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you werenít doing it  (Terry Pratchett)
CB360's,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.0
XS650,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11922.0

Offline kopcicle

  • Posts: 708
  • antidisestablishmentarian
Re: For no other reason than ...
« Reply #15 on: Feb 24, 2014, 23:05:30 »
I'm going to bump this as I've been getting a bunch of questions about rephase recently

~kop
"If a man wants to carry two cats home by their tails, by all means let him. Heíll learn things that he might not have otherwise even guessed, and the experience will be one heíll not soon forget!"

~S. Clemens

If it leaks after all this? I'm gonna pull a "Brad" and bulldoze the fucker!

Quote from: Scruffy;1025553
As an equal opportunity bigot, I'll insult any brand, any style, any time...:wink:
-Scruffy

http://tinyurl.com/TheRedBike

Redliner: me? But I'm not a little girl any more
Nov 13, 2013, 19:20:58