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Author Topic: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750  (Read 57113 times)

Online Tune-A-Fish©

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #435 on: Feb 23, 2017, 09:58:30 »
This is the simple way my friend



https://www.ebay.com/itm/151362842834




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Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #436 on: Feb 23, 2017, 10:43:28 »
TAF - thanx for the headsup - planning on using one for the turbo scavenge. I've found a Chinabay version for £50.

A bit nervous about using one for oil delivery, however you are quite right - that would mean ALL my oiling requirements would be solved for £100 'ish and no need for me to get parts made out.

I'll check the specs for the different pumps - over 30 variants available !
"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #437 on: Feb 23, 2017, 10:49:09 »
TAF - thanx for the headsup - planning on using one for the turbo scavenge. I've found a Chinabay version for £50.

A bit nervous about using one for oil delivery, however you are quite right - that would mean ALL my oiling requirements would be solved for £100 'ish and no need for me to get parts made out.

I'll check the specs for the different pumps - over 30 variants available !

Just be cautious of anything shipping from Beijing the good tooling is all in Guangzhou and Shenzhen.
"I didn't come here and I ain't leavin"  Willie Nelson

"love hard, live fast, die fun" Kacey Musgraves

"Like a Wreckin Ball!" Eric Church

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #438 on: Feb 23, 2017, 10:52:41 »
Also, you would serve yourself well to take the whole lot to a qualified electric tool repair shop to have the motor checked over for QA purposes. Chances are they have seen the guts before.
"I didn't come here and I ain't leavin"  Willie Nelson

"love hard, live fast, die fun" Kacey Musgraves

"Like a Wreckin Ball!" Eric Church

Offline Maritime

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #439 on: Feb 23, 2017, 11:05:25 »
Just be cautious of anything shipping from Beijing the good tooling is all in Guangzhou and Shenzhen.

+ 1 to this. I have audited many factories over there and all my good suppliers were in one of those two regions. I was buying alloy extrusions and electric components for HRV's circuit boards, electric motors etc.
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Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #440 on: Feb 23, 2017, 13:29:23 »
Timely advice - thanx.

I found one supplier from Shenzhen - price £50 including carriage ! How do they do it?

I'll definitely use one for the turbo oil scavenge. Unfortunately it looks like the turbo oil return feed is going to be too low to rely on gravity - futtox.

I've mailed the supplier to see if they can specify the delivery pressure ( for the oil cooler / turbo ) as that's pretty critical for turbo life.

I've pulled the trigger on the GSXR 600 pump - only £15 ! If it's not going to work, a pal will have it off me for one of his car projects ( diff oil cooler ).

It's only the dimension to the pump drive centerline which is critical for internal fitting. Maybe !!
"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #441 on: Feb 24, 2017, 08:19:23 »
UK Mark ....... thanx mate - finally getting round to using your heat shield !!

All my random bends arriving Monday - hopefully there'll be enough to do a good job [ not ME BTW ! ]



"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

Offline UK Mark

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #442 on: Feb 25, 2017, 09:59:57 »
Hey, you're welcome.  Glad to see it put to good use. 

If you braze or weld nuts onto the pipe you have, that's how I fitted Mk 2 version on mine.  That helped set it away from the pipe just right to get a decent air gap.

Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #443 on: Feb 26, 2017, 07:25:57 »
Hey, you're welcome.  Glad to see it put to good use. 

If you braze or weld nuts onto the pipe you have, that's how I fitted Mk 2 version on mine.  That helped set it away from the pipe just right to get a decent air gap.

Thanx Mark - be proud to use it

So, while the "dry sump" idea was rattling around in my head, I thought I'd do a bit more research.

Then it struck me - how do peeps get on turbo'ing a two stroke with NO oil sump ???

Up into my "library" in the loft and I sorted out an old USA volume on turbocharging.

And -result, there's a chapter devoted to 2 stroke turbos - AND more importantly, the dry sump oil solution !!

So I'm not reinventing the wheel, just refining it. At least there's a precedent for what I'm planning.

That does now seem the obvious ( and simple ) way to go.

I need to devise a drive for the Gixer oil pump ( probably the points side ). The alternator side would be better, but would require an oil seal. We'll see.
"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #444 on: Feb 27, 2017, 07:20:09 »
Overthinking this - the answer is yes . ::) ::)

Always erring on the side of caution as I have all my design and manufacturing life, I was concerned that there might not be enough capacity from the stock pump output / oil reservoir.

However now I have the relevant figures to hand - 48 psi @ 4000rpm @ 90 degrees c.

However the important figure is the psi at which the bye pass opens, which is 57 psi AND the pump is capable of putting out more than 75 psi, which is the pressure the relief valve opens.

With a stock capacity of 4 ltrs. I would want to increase that by maybe 25%, which just happens to be the capacity of the oil cooler I have just found in my garage ! ;D

So, being kept awake most of the night with the remnants of this flu like lurgi [ 4 weeks now ], I had plenty of time to think about options - better than counting sheep. ;)

I am now looking at the following scenario - mechanical [ Gixer ] oil pump externally driven from the points side feeding direct the oil cooler with a tee off to the turbo, and returning the oil via one of the breather holes [ inside the breather tower ].

That still leaves the oil return from the turbo, which will probably go to a 1.5 ltr reservoir and then back to the crankcase. An alternative would be to double the input to the pump - one the feed from the sump, the other the turbo oil return. That means I don't need a separate scavenge pump.

I'll be doing a schematic in the next 48 hours to convince myself or not - and I'll post up the results.
"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #445 on: Feb 28, 2017, 10:27:46 »
Bonus with the Gixer oil pump.

It arrived today. I did not know - but it has TWO feeds - one is high volume for oil cooling [ internal ] and the other is high pressure for the main engine bearings etc. This is for the patented Suzuki SCAS oil cooled system.

What are the chances of that being EXACTLY what I need ! Oil cooler AND turbo supply - happy.

I just have to devise [ and get made ! ] a drive from the points central bolt.

I have a plan to mount the pump AND oil cooler under the sump - with protection of course.

The pump has plenty of output for my needs - and even a scavenge for the Turbo oil return. It looks like this system could easily be adapted and retrofitted to stock bikes [ non-turbo of course! ]
"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

Offline Brodie

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #446 on: Feb 28, 2017, 18:38:17 »
What a score with that pump working out just how you needed it. I love it when a plan comes together.

Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #447 on: Mar 01, 2017, 06:43:56 »
What a score with that pump working out just how you needed it. I love it when a plan comes together.

Brodie - this project is growing legs all on it's own ! Seems every which way I decide to go, the bike gods are smiling on me !

I looked at several pumps - both car and bike, but the guys selling the Gixer pump I bought were the only ones who could be arsed to take measurements for me ! They also threw in some extra discount [ postage ] when I told them what the project was all about. Some nice peeps out there. BTW - pump was £18 delivered.

"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #448 on: Mar 02, 2017, 13:48:08 »
So - none of the Suzuki experts could tell me the direction of rotation of the pump !!!

After some head scratching, I jury rigged some hose from the intake into a jar of petrol [ don't try this at home kiddies ] and spun the spindle end with my power drill using the chuck tightened on the spindle !

Well, I can confirm that the pump is very efficient ! A litre of petrol was sprayed over the shed - and me, in very short order.  ::)

However, I did manage to confirm that the pump rotates clockwise from the sprocket end - making my installation that much easier. ;D
"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"

Offline beachcomber

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Re: "Tangerine Dream" / Glemseck - KZ750
« Reply #449 on: Mar 03, 2017, 05:43:57 »
Well actually  - it doesn't ............... I ASSUMED that the KZ [ like 90% of ICE engines ]runs clockwise viewed from the right. Or like most car engines clockwise viewed from the front !!

Thanx to Carsten over on the German KZ750 site for pointing out the error of my thinking !! It actually runs counterclockwise.  :-[ Fiendish Japanese. >:(

Here is my excuse [ apart from a lifelong experience of clockwise rotating engines ! ] - apart from a 20 minute ride on a pal's bike, I have no experience of a living, breathing engine. My engine has been dead on the bench since I bought the project 6 years ago and to date - I have never even looked inside ! ::)

Oh yes, my BMW Kay engines ran counterclockwise.

It would have become obvious when my new OEM workshop manual arrives next week, but Carsten has saved me a whole lot of trouble with my pump - even though it is easily remedied.

In fact, driving from the alternator side makes the packaging / installation a lot more simple, apart from a suitable oil seal.

So - suitably embarrassed at my own lack of knowledge - public thanx to Carsten.  ;)
« Last Edit: Mar 03, 2017, 05:47:00 by beachcomber »
"if at first you don't succeed, you've already been a failure once"

" we're not going back to the sixties - we never left "

"yep, nostalgia ain't what it used to be"

"I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure"