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Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Engines => Topic started by: rsjudka on May 13, 2017, 02:20:07

Title: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 13, 2017, 02:20:07
Hey everyone!
I'm not exactly sure how to start, this is my first time posting but I've already read a ton of the posts on here!

I recently purchased a 1974 CB360 for some mechanic (or so he claimed🙄) and for the first 25ish miles it ran without any problems.

Now, I'm having an issue where white/blue smoke is coming out of the right exhaust as well as some oil. It is also occasionally popping while revving the bike.

I think the bike also is only running on one cylinder (when I unplug the left spark boot the bike dies, but runs the same when I unplug the right spark boot). I tested both coils and they seem to be working properly.

Finally, there is also a weird ticking noise that sounds like it's coming from the top of the engine.

I've done some basic maintanance to it (changed throttle cable, changed oil, replaced a cracked top triple tree) but haven't messed with the engine much.

I feel like these issues could all be related, but I'm extremely new to motorcycles so I'm not sure.

Could someone point me in the right direction to get started? Also, if you think this is more serious of an issue, should I just take the bike to a shop? I would rather much work on it myself.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention, when I ride the bike, for the first 5 minutes or so it feels as if the bike is half powered, can't get over 30 mph. Bike has a very deep growl noise. Then, all of the sudden, the bike rides fine, great power. Sounds like it should (aside from the ticking).

Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 13, 2017, 07:41:07
Could someone point me in the right direction to get started?


Start here...
http://www.dotheton.com/downloads/CB360T.pdf

Check for proper oil level, Cam chain adjustment (engine at operating temperature), Valve adjustment (engine cold), Points gap / Timing check and adjustment (Stroboscopic timing light - engine at operating temp), Carb sync check and adj - Air/fuel mix adjustment (on center stand, engine at operating temp). 

In that order.  :)

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: redwillissuperman on May 13, 2017, 11:29:32
Hey everyone!
I'm not exactly sure how to start, this is my first time posting but I've already read a ton of the posts on here!

I recently purchased a 1974 CB360 for some mechanic (or so he claimed) and for the first 25ish miles it ran without any problems.

Now, I'm having an issue where white/blue smoke is coming out of the right exhaust as well as some oil. It is also occasionally popping while revving the bike.

I think the bike also is only running on one cylinder (when I unplug the left spark boot the bike dies, but runs the same when I unplug the right spark boot). I tested both coils and they seem to be working properly.

Finally, there is also a weird ticking noise that sounds like it's coming from the top of the engine.

I've done some basic maintanance to it (changed throttle cable, changed oil, replaced a cracked top triple tree) but haven't messed with the engine much.

I feel like these issues could all be related, but I'm extremely new to motorcycles so I'm not sure.

Could someone point me in the right direction to get started? Also, if you think this is more serious of an issue, should I just take the bike to a shop? I would rather much work on it myself.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention, when I ride the bike, for the first 5 minutes or so it feels as if the bike is half powered, can't get over 30 mph. Bike has a very deep growl noise. Then, all of the sudden, the bike rides fine, great power. Sounds like it should (aside from the ticking).

Cheers,
Robert

Engine is f*cked most likely but small possibility it's electrical. The spark plug "boot" is a separate slip-on piece. There is a brass spike in the boot that pierces into the center of the spark plug wire. Pull the boot off, cut off 1/2-inch of plug wire, and reinstall.

On the engine stuff- put on a pair of Mechanix gloves. Start bike. Immediately touch headers a few inches from head. Both should be getting warm. Go for 5minute ride.  Check headers. Both should be HOT. Most likely right will be dead cold. Try above spark plug fix. Re-test.

Title: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: advCo on May 13, 2017, 13:24:48
Agreed with both of the last 2 posts. The carbs on the 360 can be very finicky especially if the intake or exhaust has been modified (pods, open exhaust), and the slightest bit off sync can cause running on one cylinder.

It's good practice to do as red said and make sure you're getting a good bite on the spark plug wires.

I would start there, making sure you have spark on both sides: pull plugs out and turn the engine over with the spark plug in the holder and the threaded part touching the engine - you should see a nice blue spark on each side. If not, test your coil on the suspect side.

Once you can confirm spark, 100% go through and do the manual maintenance procedure trek recommended. Follow it to a T. If you are worried about it at all, there is a great set of videos on YouTube by Common Motor Collective that go through all of the procedures in the manual step by step for the Honda twins. They were very helpful for me my first time around.

The ticking is most likely loose valve tappers and will be adjusted in the maintenance procedure. The bike 'warming up and running fine' sounds like carb sync to me.


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89466)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on May 13, 2017, 15:00:32


EDIT: Also forgot to mention, when I ride the bike, for the first 5 minutes or so it feels as if the bike is half powered, can't get over 30 mph. Bike has a very deep growl noise. Then, all of the sudden, the bike rides fine, great power. Sounds like it should (aside from the ticking).


This sounds like the points shorting out.  Do you have the gasket under the points cover?  I paint the inside of my points covers with the liquid tape.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 13, 2017, 16:08:13
Engine is f*cked most likely but small possibility it's electrical. The spark plug "boot" is a separate slip-on piece. There is a brass spike in the boot that pierces into the center of the spark plug wire. Pull the boot off, cut off 1/2-inch of plug wire, and reinstall.
So if its not an electrical problem, is it not possible to fix the engine? Or would it just require some extra work?

On the engine stuff- put on a pair of Mechanix gloves. Start bike. Immediately touch headers a few inches from head. Both should be getting warm. Go for 5minute ride.  Check headers. Both should be HOT. Most likely right will be dead cold. Try above spark plug fix. Re-test.
I have checked the engine heat. On startup the left side warms up but the right side is cold. After a 5 minute ride, the left side is burning hot and the right side is only warm. Would it being warm be different than being dead cold?

Thanks for the tip on the spark plug fix, I will definitely try that out when I have the time!
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 13, 2017, 16:11:58
I would start there, making sure you have spark on both sides: pull plugs out and turn the engine over with the spark plug in the holder and the threaded part touching the engine - you should see a nice blue spark on each side. If not, test your coil on the suspect side.
I've tested for spark on both sides and I do see a blue spark. However, I'm not sure how big the spark should be.

I have also tested the coils just to see if that could be the issue, and they both spark (as for how big the spark is supposed to be, I'm not sure).
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 13, 2017, 16:14:32
This sounds like the points shorting out.  Do you have the gasket under the points cover?  I paint the inside of my points covers with the liquid tape.
I do have a gasket I plan on installing under the points cover. I have noticed some oil leaking through the points and am waiting for the seal and rubber plugs to come in some I can try to stop that leak.

Should I invest in some new points or first wait to stop the leaking, then see if the issue continues?

Also, if I need to replace the points, should I replace the coils too?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 13, 2017, 16:35:10
Jesus!  Just do what I said to do.  then we can go from there.   ::)

Dont go blowing your money on parts you may not need.  Spend it on the tools you need to find which parts you need.

sync gauges...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2FastMoto-2-Carburetor-Synchronizer-Carb-Vacuum-Gauge-Sync-Tool-Honda-/201802347691?hash=item2efc5b74ab:g:rYkAAOSwNnRYkQV6&vxp=mtr

Gauge adapters should be bought from crazypj right here on DTT (probably cheapest)
or...
http://www.common-motor.com/honda-360-carb-ports

timing light
https://www.harborfreight.com/timing-light-with-advance-40963.html
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on May 13, 2017, 17:42:53
Here we go, let the attitude begin.  Good luck, my man.  I hope you get it sorted.  Maybe when we're allowed to, we'll talk about how to diagnose certain symptoms.  But for now, listen to mom.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: redwillissuperman on May 13, 2017, 22:38:28
Some other quick things to try:

While the engine is running, squirt carb cleaner into right carb throat. If the right cylinder fires, you have a fueling issue.

These aren't "fixes" but it's an easy way to pinpoint your problem areas.

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: redwillissuperman on May 13, 2017, 22:39:01
Also, NEVER RUN ENGINE ON SIDE STAND- only center stand.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 13, 2017, 23:11:49
Here we go, let the attitude begin.  Good luck, my man.  I hope you get it sorted.  Maybe when we're allowed to, we'll talk about how to diagnose certain symptoms.  But for now, listen to mom.

Haha I knew I would catch hell when I wrote that.   ;)
Its just the guy is talking about buying coils...When hes got blue smoke and oil out of the right cylinder and a ticking sound from top of engine.

Which reminds me...first thing is a compression test.  I believe I have read guys post.  They have rented compression gauge from Autozone etc.
Or buy a compression test gauge.
So do a compression test.  Your valves may be out of adjustment. (ticking sound)  If a seal or guide is worn this can cause oil to enter cylinder.  OR it may need fresh piston rings and bore work OR you may have a bent or cracked valve.

Test compression, Adjust cam chain tension.  Then check valve clearances. etc

Once youve solved the blue smoke and oil problem.  Then start looking at the rest of your list.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 13, 2017, 23:50:11
Thanks guys for the all the advice so far! I'm going to order all the tools to do the regular maintenance first, and then see whats next.

And sorry guys about all the questions, I've just been reading up so much online about people with similar issues and thought I was heading in the right direction (for example, replacing the coils :-[)

Just out of curiosity, because I may have done this a few times, how bad is it to run the engine on the side stand?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 14, 2017, 00:39:57
As long as the oil is kept at proper level and the bike is sitting on level-ish ground its not an issue, to idle on side stand for a little bit.  But for maintenance stuff it should be done on center stand.  Honda had a bulletin come out in 1976 that recommended changing the oil pickup to a better later design. (CJ360 oil pickup)  To prevent it drawing air when idling on side stand.  If it does draw enough air to run head dry, the head and camshaft will be toast.  Seems it can happen pretty quickly.  I have the later, improved CJ360 pickup installed in mine.  And I still avoid letting it idle on sidestand.

Also, the early 360s (yours 1974) had a cam chain guide recall.  If the guide was replaced by dealer your engine # on the case will have punch mark on it.

Yep, make sure the engine is runnable first.  Then concentrate on getting it running.

Like I posted before Autozone may be able to loan you the compression gauge.  If you find compression is low.  Say, 140 or less add a teaspoon of oil in the sparkplug hole and try it again.  If compression tests higher, this shows worn rings/cylinder.  If compression remains the same you may have a leaking valve.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 14, 2017, 01:43:23
Yeah I read about the cam chain guide recall, thankfully my bike has that punch  ;D

Thanks for the tip about the compression test.

I won't have any time this week to work on the bike (starting an internship :) ), but as soon as the weekend comes I'll get on it 8)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 14, 2017, 08:55:14
The best way to do a compression test on 360 w CV carbs is pulling the carbs off.   

Im sure youve read plenty about the top end oiling issues.  You could also pick up a tube of 3-bond.  You will need it to re-seal the head cover, when you change out the leaky cam shaft seal behind the points and advancer.  Since you have that seal you could dig into that and take a peek at your cam and tappet surfaces to ensure its not eaten up by running dry.
When you install the oil seal be sure to lube it up pretty good.  If rubber oil seals are installed dry.  The friction caused by the rotating parts will instantly burn the sealing edges and it will leak again.
DTT member, "Sonreir" sells the 3 bond at sparckmoto.com

The workshop manual explains how to remove and re-install the head cover in good detail.
 
Keep us up to date w some pics.
good luck.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 26, 2017, 21:57:31
Sorry everyone I've been really busy with finals and work and life and haven't really been able to work on the bike until today.

I was able to do the compression test, and sadly my bike is at 70 psi on both right and left cylinders :( After adding the oil the readings go up to 85~90psi on both sides. Is this a big enough of a change to show worn rings/cylinders? How low is too low of a reading?

Also, not sure if this affects anything, but I bought the bike with aftermarket mufflers, they look like 16" shorties. Would this affect the compression test?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 27, 2017, 14:43:45
No shorties wont affect readings.  Did you have the carbs off the engine?  If not pull them off and re-test.
Then go through and adjust valves.  Honda manual will tell you how to adj valves.  Valves will be the only adjustment you make w a cold engine.
Then re-test.  And report back.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 27, 2017, 14:46:53
The engine wont run if its lower than 90 give or take.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: Sonreir™ on May 28, 2017, 17:05:10
Carbs were off the bike when the test was done?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 29, 2017, 20:35:28
Okay so I did some more compression tests today, both with carbs on and off.

With carbs on, compression on both sides was 70 psi.
With carbs off, compression on the left side was 80 psi and on the right side was 70 psi.

I'm a little confused about the readings because I'm able to ride the bike without any problems (besides the smoke and ticking) so what could be causing such low compression?

So I just got done doing the cam chain adjustment, and am waiting for the bike to cool down. Hopefully I can do it by tonight.

Should I retest compression after the valve adjustment?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 29, 2017, 23:07:28
Yes re-test after valve adjustment.  And BTW adjusting valves on a 360 is not fun.   :P

Post a pic of your compression tester.  Does it screw into the spark plug hole w an o-ring on it?

Are you turning the enigne over several times until the gauge needle wont climb any higher?

Pull spark plugs out of both sides when doing test to let engine turn over easier.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 31, 2017, 02:47:36
(https://kjncra-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4m7-gBIZlFaOXdf4BKGYjQrMriPxPbmKIJ6R85qdJ5aLSwCuxQxPobvuT-7-k6yhKxv1kSZo4NXj9AjFgpQBkGSbmUyuS6Zpkq0zFlwOB210psSqgbOdCDU0slbmKaWbmgkqMZaltd19jFcydMTDhzjKCShFE2ZzB4MDpwWb7S9yqHdf1m62a-jkA_Rm6A408jcaUurvc1STeGU0tOEPbR5w/IMG_0028.JPG?psid=1)

So this is the compression tester I'm using, the only difficulty I've found is that the adapter doesn't screw all the way into the spark plug hole, but I haven't felt any air leaks while doing the test. I have also been doing it with both spark plugs out and turn the engine over for about 10 seconds, carbs off.

What I did find when taking the valve covers off, is that the left intake valve adjustment screw is missing >:(

(https://kpnsra-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4mQwn80nrda3c9vvA_XQHAqbbw7gESUUECKy0k32MXkmuiX3YMQG9AUaZjv7gshapCNrlguSMIn_XFUB0RtoXXrSjnNAx5vhTdowVyw9P8NBiEv7cBo5iHbQSzvlOpEg1qe8j6quWiQv7JE3TQ7vxUCZnifSXIoWhScuI0OQ8zzs96bPBKvMgob4fZWVNx46ncW4fWglrkFMVeEnPm5HVpvg/IMG_20170529_195250.jpg?psid=1)
(https://kpnura-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4mP7ukAspsWCMrWHVZ6Z7JQz1Th0FVahH7FYd7QU7J6l0g7TuPGnyDYl7sWcM2K_t8eqk-MY2CNOEaIl8mJkv0872sDJx3GYNlVPuUjXPvRTEHC5JbxxsJ_guR77BYQUbkW2THwmyvwAEProAVSFpEgg7_1LFTCWWTLNoU9DWxEbEAFGJHjbvTwMCCPVYsohktA5QDk1MjhFg5EvKLv44d4w/IMG_20170529_195314.jpg?psid=1)

 I'm going to try to get a magnet pickup tool and try to fish the screw out. Is this something that could have been causing all my issues?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on May 31, 2017, 08:38:26
You're pics are missing links for me, so I can't see anything, but you should have the compression gauge in one plug hole while a plug is still in the other.  Maybe it doesn't matter, since the cylinders are separate.  But, having a missing tappet screw will be an issue too.  The valves need to be open to suck in air, and you need to suck in air to get compression.  Missing tappet screw on the intake side means no air is coming in. 
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 31, 2017, 20:43:34
+1
I cant see pics either.
The threads on your adapter may not be correct pitch.  Just dont try to force it and mess up plug hole threads. Compare adapter to the plug threads.  The difference may be miniscule.

 Or a plug may have been crossthreaded into the hole at some point in the past.  :P

And yes you must find, install and adjust the tappet screw and lock nut.  Fingers crossed it didnt jack anything up while bouncing around in there.
Intake or exhaust screw?  Im with Irk and assuming intake.  If it were exhaust it would build pressure, unless its fucked up.

Just crank it til pressure maxs out on gauge.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on May 31, 2017, 22:33:27
So I updated my image links, sorry about that.

If I do have the wrong adapters (the one I'm using is the M12 which I read is the same size as the spark plugs), is there any place I can get the correct adapters?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on May 31, 2017, 22:48:21
Adapters should be right and fine as long as you're threading to the o ring.  Regardless, with no tappet screw you're not going to get compression.  That valve has to be able to open for the motor to suck in the air that gets compressed.  By the looks of that cover, you've had something bouncing around pretty violently in there.  Might be time to pull the cover and fully assess the damage.  Maybe even pull the head and see what kind of shape the valve seats are in.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on May 31, 2017, 23:09:47
Adapters should be right and fine as long as you're threading to the o ring.  Regardless, with no tappet screw you're not going to get compression.  That valve has to be able to open for the motor to suck in the air that gets compressed.  By the looks of that cover, you've had something bouncing around pretty violently in there.  Might be time to pull the cover and fully assess the damage.  Maybe even pull the head and see what kind of shape the valve seats are in.

YUP.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: teazer on May 31, 2017, 23:28:21
First get a valve adjusting screw and locknut in there and set the valve clearances  on all 4.

Next: borrow a compression tester from an Auto supply store and retest compression.  Turn it over until teh needle stops rising - maybe 5-10 kicks/seconds on starter button.

Chinese compression testers have a nasty habit of reading low by a long way.  I had one that finally read 30 psi on any cylinder...

The gouges in that tappet cover are from the nut and adjuster screw IMHO.  You need to find them if you have not already done so.  They cannot be left inside in the blind hope that they don't get lose.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jun 02, 2017, 23:07:27
(https://kznyra-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4mF8Cr5BMVuH2Fd-TVh_k645br-1z3dnvJWQcVws52uaRWUzdoJ5Dh9UqL4cWqmYFg1p6kUKVEi5xSEAPzuUslmKluhWyBowTT3o9OVGAFo2JdNUAgZAX1R88BHZAOOqbuIXK0EXuhWmlspAtd3cxi_On5yeWexlUOU5za1QYt0L7x9VDY4z_TujDGAflXAovmNvxteddnEa5PROAeTkpUjw/IMG_20170602_201241.jpg?psid=1)

(https://kznvra-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4mq5n9XqtyZZ9JeEs-poz2r0rbRHNYQTOG1Lo4VOl1HGfL9olbI0DAxDnuS36UP94N13pR_QrsVz0wiv-_8SmZYF96XGqxfPAng232mXuVEg_fPwgt-r1vtbIKxCN-Mk6twWWZBtPtIKJ2m-cyOMvXFZRrDJBdauLC6JFeD2reI7p4HR9yQcJtbfwEl45FARQ4NcJA1NFn78rJZ2V47_GG7A/IMG_20170602_201412.jpg?psid=1)

(https://kznxra-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4msY-_YCbvLVVfxAYgR3ZzT7NrQdCo8mDyz_GBQJQJ-Y-2Kz6yWA_y59OWqhNYcqrBwKDmAzp8AQZY6F5aDiJcgKaWjR3TW14ioiaPw1t-nebr9-UkBJnUenogoYMk8YnGG1a0BY31hj6hhcFaRh-Y0O-79efqB35OTSzFnd-17CSL7nz_nbIE4YeW4Gc0SXDW4Q_ak-S6yL0MLYjkoTfUHA/IMG_20170602_201344.jpg?psid=1)

So I pulled off the cylinder head cover hoping it got caught somewhere in there, but still couldn't find the adjustment screw and nut. The thing is I don't really see any damage to the engine (besides the valve cover) so is it possible the PO just forgot to put back the screw? I also tried sticking a magnetic pickup tool but still didn't find it.

I'm also not sure I have enough time with school and work etc to pull apart the whole engine. If the screw is someone in there, would pulling off the left and right covers possibly get me to it quicker?

Also is it possible that the screw is just stuck to the very strong magnet near the oil drain plug (assuming there is one)?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Jun 02, 2017, 23:39:03
Very doubtful the PO forgot to put the screw back in.  There is a screw and lock nut.  Most likely, it wasn't torqued well and vibrated out of its threads, fell down through the cam chain opening and into the sump.  Only way to the sump is through the side covers, but no clear path to every nook and cranny of the sump through the side covers.  You can only hope it's accessible without separating the case. 
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: Sonreir™ on Jun 05, 2017, 12:55:41
And if you do have to separate the cases, the best way it to flip the engine upside down and just remove the bottom case. All the confusing parts should stay inside the top. :P
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jun 18, 2017, 21:39:33
Hey everyone I'm back again with some bad news. I've been stuck on this bike since when I was doing the oil change on of the bolts broke off and now the bolt minus the head is stuck in the engine. Thankfully my dad helped me get it out and all that's left to do is rethread the hole.

When I was tightening the bolts that attach the engine to the frame (they look like little triangles and have clips for the wires) I heard what I think was a snap from inside the engine. Now I'm freaking out as this doesn't sound good. But it just may also have been some other part on the bike that make a noise, I have no idea what to think anymore.

Anyway, when I was rolling my bike into the garage for the night i started hearing a tick when the bike would roll through one full rotation. Could something have broken inside the engine just by me tightening those frame bolts?

PS I found the tapper screw and nut, got them out with a magnetic pickup tool  8)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jun 18, 2017, 22:50:55
Good news you were able to fish the tappet screw and nut out.   :)

No, I dont believe you can break anything "inside" the engine by simply tightening frame bolts.  Unless you somehow cracked the aluminum head cover (engine mount) the bolt is through.

Employ the fastener torque chart in the workshop manual I gave you.  Higher # is for dry fitting fasteners, lower # if you use any type of lubrication on fasteners.  I recommend using lube, whatever kind suits you.  I prefer teflon thread sealant.  Some use locktight, others use anti-seize.

Check to make sure drive chain has proper slack.

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jun 19, 2017, 01:05:36
So I looked everywhere for the torque values for the header cover bolts but I couldn't find anything. Not even in the manual.

How do I check to make sure the drive chain has proper slack?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jun 19, 2017, 07:54:39
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-190617055002-25411824.png)

Engine hanger bolt, (Go by appropriate bolt size.)

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-190617055002-2576206.png)


(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-190617055002-2575792.png)

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-190617055002-25742185.png)

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jun 19, 2017, 10:11:29
I should really start using the manual you sent me I've been using this really torn up old manual but it doesn't seem as detailed as the PDF.

Thanks for the info, hopefully this bike will be working soon, I want to ride so bad
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jun 19, 2017, 11:38:08
I should really start using the manual you sent me I've been using this really torn up old manual but it doesn't seem as detailed as the PDF.

Thanks for the info, hopefully this bike will be working soon, I want to ride so bad

Agreed
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jun 26, 2017, 22:37:00
Guys I feel like I'm almost there!

So I did the valve clearance adjustment, and when I started it up there was a loud ticking noise (I'm assuming because my tappet screws were too loose?) but no smoke and sounded much more powerful! Could the ticking be because I didn't do the carb sync yet?

Also, when I was doing the adjustment, I couldn't get it exactly on the LT and T mark, because anytime I tried it shifted like 1 cm over by itself. Is that bad?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Jun 26, 2017, 22:52:40
When you do the timing adjustment you want the spark plugs out so you're not working against the compression.  You can use a breaker bar handle to counter balance the alternator so it doesn't move. Or carefully wedge a small screwdriver tip in-between the stator and the alternator. 
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jun 26, 2017, 23:25:30
Guys I feel like I'm almost there!

So I did the valve clearance adjustment, and when I started it up there was a loud ticking noise (I'm assuming because my tappet screws were too loose?) but no smoke and sounded much more powerful! Could the ticking be because I didn't do the carb sync yet?

Also, when I was doing the adjustment, I couldn't get it exactly on the LT and T mark, because anytime I tried it shifted like 1 cm over by itself. Is that bad?
The reason it feel like it "shifts by itself" is the magnets on the rotor.

Hard to explain but I thread a cover bolt in then use a zip tie to hold the wrench to keep exactly on mark.

Ticking noise is not because carbs are out of sync.  Recheck your valve adjustment. 
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jun 28, 2017, 23:06:22
Aaaand I'm back.

So I got through all the steps and now I just did my carb adjustment. I think I got it right, except when the bike revs it seems like the right side revs longer. Does that make sense?

Also, the smoke and popping are no more! (Except when you rev really high, is that normal?)

Also, the bike gets hot, I mean steaming hot. And the right muffler feels hotter than the left.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Jun 29, 2017, 00:55:50
Aaaand I'm back.

So I got through all the steps and now I just did my carb adjustment. I think I got it right, except when the bike revs it seems like the right side revs longer. Does that make sense?

Also, the smoke and popping are no more! (Except when you rev really high, is that normal?)

Also, the bike gets hot, I mean steaming hot. And the right muffler feels hotter than the left.
Your carbs need to be synced.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 09, 2017, 02:08:01
First of all I just want to thank all of you so far for all your help!

I've eliminated the oil leaking, the smoke from the mufflers, the overheating on one side, and the idling issues.

The bike sounds as it should now when idling, but when I took it out for a test ride, I noticed a few things...
   • ticking gets louder the faster I ride
   • it rides rough in the first 2 gears, but gets better the faster I go

I also feel like I'm constantly charging the battery, like every 3 days, even though it's a new battery

Does it still seem like there's major problems with the engine, or is it just down to fine tuning now?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 09, 2017, 18:10:20
Just to clarify, it feels less powerful in gears 1-3, and feels like it chokes up sometimes in those low gears.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 09, 2017, 18:14:55
You shouldn't need to charge battery every couple of days unless there is a problem with battery or charging system. Have you fitted a 'modern' regulator rectifier? In my experience there is usually no problem with the generator windings or rotor magnets, physical damage is pretty easily seen or can be tested with multi-meter. The wiring to main block connector can be damaged or more likely corrosion in block connectors and/or red/white wire on rectifier is broken or corroded. I Don't know if anyone has tried it yet but I've been thinking of modifying a stock rotor by fitting neodymium magnets to increase magnetic flux and low speed charging.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 10, 2017, 00:47:57
You shouldn't need to charge battery every couple of days unless there is a problem with battery or charging system. Have you fitted a 'modern' regulator rectifier? In my experience there is usually no problem with the generator windings or rotor magnets, physical damage is pretty easily seen or can be tested with multi-meter. The wiring to main block connector can be damaged or more likely corrosion in block connectors and/or red/white wire on rectifier is broken or corroded. I Don't know if anyone has tried it yet but I've been thinking of modifying a stock rotor by fitting neodymium magnets to increase magnetic flux and low speed charging.
I haven't changed any of the electrical parts to the bike, but by the looks of it the rectifier looks super super old. Should I try upgrading it with the one sold on cmc?

Also, do you have any idea about what could be causing low power issues at the lower gears?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 10, 2017, 08:00:58
I haven't changed any of the electrical parts to the bike, but by the looks of it the rectifier looks super super old. Should I try upgrading it with the one sold on cmc?

Also, do you have any idea about what could be causing low power issues at the lower gears?

Most importantly carb sync.  You cant tune out of sync carbs.  They must work together (the same from the start) then work on tuning adjustments...

I am a HUGE fan of sparckmoto.com stuff.  Owner, Sonreir is a longtime DTT member.  http://www.sparckmoto.com/Products
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 10, 2017, 12:04:02
I am new this so I may have done it wrong, but I do believe I did the carb sync correctly. I followed the video posted by CMC about doing a carb sync on a cb360 using his carb sync adapters.

Got equal reading from both carbs and both mufflers feel like they have even pressure. Is there some other measurement I can use to see if my carbs are synced properly?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 10, 2017, 12:21:30
Good, if they are synced then they are synced.  8)

So get the charging system up to snuff.  And your ready to start tuning carbs to run properly.

BTW how bout a few  pics of the whole bike.   ;)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 10, 2017, 12:24:49
What size battery do you have in her?  Mine is an 8ah agm and works super.  12ah would be even better.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 10, 2017, 19:49:55
Here she is (minus the 12" shorties I recently put on):

(https://jplyiq-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4m92-g6t8CluRBB2kLrnMNbXP5-9iSSaaMnZ8Ul7VgUAxIfuUp7RHF0dzjGTyf5sJX2-q0_Uiyr9_woWyyaq47cM7my_ajxG88P73vNBoqfpA6Le-mM4YW-UNildV_r1b1yMyGmvvIu_6mZKMoAXAw5NgaIhLvgz-Db28-p9ffVa53zYemcMZYkxESdmiQF8kj4ewc54m8bprpQljiOWZQMA/dtt1.jpg?psid=1JovJDmXgSgWZMqCgXOQTdhwoxTaBFeKVH5lD-Lf9NK0RCYA7jyN9aKKyhewSp8uLOT3g7UzpnwcdigOOlRkvtWMO-UyPw/00T0T_jtRla6MXCnt_1200x900.jpg?psid=1)

(https://jplziq-bn1305.files.1drv.com/y4mfJ9dEH7Oz3oZ_g-zTlzcg3OOKvLPGXRt1TC9p-skCWz5b85EyrBLNL1We_fFmaoE3nUv2b1jW_yk5-3OQIjAk5WNLKdmyPGHVTNkjhlD36Qoi8H34qLDuwGY7reF8doKZ3LqWL9e4oLo3cWUbFM7dlVW1epkwWYm4B8GD1lLKXqDn6_ypNo5pX0BTU9PLWRCzGjVzDhiC1nEYSVaODB-eQ/dtt2.jpg?psid=1)

There's also been a lot of paint chipping off the engine, so I think I'm going to just strip the paint off all the covers  ;D
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 10, 2017, 19:51:30
What size battery do you have in her?  Mine is an 8ah agm and works super.  12ah would be even better.

The battery is a 12v 12ah, so that should be powerful enough? Should I try to get a new battery first (bought like last year) or go for the new rectifier?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 10, 2017, 22:29:09
Cant see your pics.

A 12v 12ah is great.  But if the charging system isnt functioning properly...

Get the electrics sorted out.   Have you tested for output?  Idle the bike and place meter leads (dc voltage) across battery terminals.
Then check it again twixed 3-5k rpm.

Did you solve the ticking sound?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 11, 2017, 01:14:43
I always have trouble with these pictures, I reuploaded a smaller sized image now

I don't have anything to test the battery, but I'm going to take the battery the Auto Zone to get it tested. And if they say the battery is good, then I'll rent a tester and test on the bike.

So when the bike idles the ticking is gone, but with any pull on the throttle the ticking comes back. I've watched a few cb360 test ride videos on youtube and the ticking can sometimes be heard, is that normal?

And just a side question, when doing the carb sync, does the vacuum gauge reading matter? Or is it just to have both carbs show the same value?

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 11, 2017, 08:12:05
The vac reading just needs to be the same.  So, sounds like you got that.

Yes, test battery and rent the meter and check it w bike running.

She is a really nice looking machine.  8)  It will be difficult to make her run right w shortys.  :P

If it were my bike.  I would put he stock mufflers back on, immediately. 

They look great black.  BONUS- It will run a lot better.  Double points- You wont go deaf.  ;)

Double check ignition timing with a strobe light.  timing must be set correctly.  It could result in a cracked valve caused by overheating or hitting piston.

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 11, 2017, 08:20:28
I cant tell what you got going on for air filters.
I would start scouring the earth for stock air filters.

You can find em easily on ebay.




Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Jul 11, 2017, 08:41:23
I cant tell what you got going on for air filters.
I would start scouring the earth for stock air filters.

You can find em easily on ebay.

http://www.common-motor.com/honda-cb360-air-filter

http://www.common-motor.com/honda-cb360-air-filter-factory-left

http://www.common-motor.com/honda-cb360-air-filter-factory-right
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 11, 2017, 08:42:23
Yes thankfully the bike came with stock air filters 😀

I would love to have kept the stock mufflers on, but there were just so man holes in them and there was a rattling noise inside both of them :(

For the timing adjustment, you first check left side on the compression stroke at the LF mark then rotate 180° to the F mark, or would you first rotate a whole revolution and then go to the F mark?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Jul 11, 2017, 08:45:41
Since you have the plugs out, stick your finger over the hole.  When it wants to blow your finger off the hole, you'll know you're on the compression stroke.  Then, go to your mark.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 11, 2017, 08:51:00
Easiest and quickest way Ive found to adjust static timing.
1.  set the gap on left point to open spec distance.  I start at either .12 or .14.  I think specs say 12-16.

2.  next, use your light or I prefer to use meter.  Rotate plate til Left opens on LF exactly.  snug plate down & rotate engine counterclockwise

3.  Then without using your feeler gauge.  Simply, tweak right point gap until it opens exactly on L, it should "automatically" fall within .12-16 specs. 

If right turns out to be more or less than 12-16, start over w step  1.  This time set Left to open either .12 OR .16 gap...repeat steps 2 & 3.

If you adjust Left throughout the .12 -.16 range, opening exactly on LF and find you just cant get Right within spec opening on L,   replace worn points.

If points are set less than .12 they will remain closed to long allowing the coil to heat up and fry.  (not enough cool down time between charging cycles)

If open beyond .16 the coils will have less time to charge = weak spark.

Step 4, start bike put your strobe on it and adjust plate for proper operation.  Recheck gaps. done.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 11, 2017, 17:14:09
I don't have anything to test the battery, but I'm going to take the battery the Auto Zone to get it tested. And if they say the battery is good, then I'll rent a tester and test on the bike.

So when the bike idles the ticking is gone, but with any pull on the throttle the ticking comes back. I've watched a few cb360 test ride videos on youtube and the ticking can sometimes be heard, is that normal?

For the timing adjustment, you first check left side on the compression stroke at the LF mark then rotate 180° to the F mark, or would you first rotate a whole revolution and then go to the F mark?


You can get a multi-meter that's good enough for checking electrics for about $5.00 so not having a tester is poor excuse. Load testing isn't really needed, if yu use electric starter about 4~5 times then it won't hold high enough voltage to crank and spark on 6~7 attempt, battery is shot. (takes around 60 amps to get motor started spinning then less than 40A to keep it spinning)

The crank turns twice for the cam to turn one full360 degree rotation. TDC comes up twice, onece with both valves closed, once with both valves slightly open (intake is opening exhaust is closing)

The best way to find actual TDC C (compression) is to watch intake valve go down then as it comes up your getting the correct position to do valve adjustment or ignition timing. It's quicker to just watch valve on each cylinder than messing around nd getting timing marks right but on wrong rotation
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 11, 2017, 19:50:00
So I went a got a multimeter and at idle the test reads 12v and while revving the highest it went up to was ~12.6v

However, I was unable to start the bike using the electric starter, I had to kick start it.

Is it time for a battery replacement? Regulator/rectifier upgrade? Both?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: Sonreir™ on Jul 11, 2017, 20:03:02
Possibly both. I'd try the battery first. Sometimes a dead battery can suck a lot of juice out of your system, which causes an overall voltage drop.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 11, 2017, 22:53:03
So I re-did my timing adjustment because I don't feel like I did it right the first time based on what trek said. I'm pretty sure I've taken a step backwards because one of the mufflers is getting hot (and a clean spark plug) while the other one is staying cold (and a carbon fouled spark plug). Is there any way to know you set the timing "correctly"?

Because I re-did the timing, does that mean the carbs need to be resynced again?   :'(

And on the topic of the battery, I can get the bike to start up about 3 times (bike only idles for about 5 seconds then dies) using the electric starter, then after that its dead. Is the battery done?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Jul 11, 2017, 23:02:45
Not necessarily.  Sounds like you're not running it very long before you start it the next time.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 11, 2017, 23:55:04
Also forgot to mention, after I did the timing adjustment I tested with the multi meter at idle and while revving and it was reading 11 and around 11.3 respectively
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 13, 2017, 17:51:10
Voltages are low but battery may recover with a decent charge. Needs 48~72 hrs at a low amperage (1amp or slightly less)
 Check various 'wall warts' you already have to see if any are 12v 6~800 milliamps then connect it up for a few days.
 Batteries charge in two ways, surface charge where you have the surface of plates holding a voltage and deep charge where the entire 'body' of plate is holding voltage and full amperage.  Battery should be around 13.2 volts when fully charged and stay at that voltage at least 24 hrs (may be slightly higher initially, up to 14V is OK)
It's always interesting to check cranking voltage. If battery is good it won't drop below 12v. If OK but on the way out, around 11~11.5
Lower than 10v cranking means battery is definitely on the way out although not using electric start could easily get you another year or so out of it.
You need a fully charged battery to be able to do proper charging checks (although I would check rectifier connections, in block and at unit).
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 13, 2017, 23:41:02
Thanks for all the info about batteries PJ. So I was charging my battery and about 30 minutes into the charge my whole garage smelled like that rotten egg smell, so I'm just going to replace the battery to be on the safe side.

Before that, I did redo my points adjustment (3 times now) and synced my carbs.

It idles alot better now, also feel full power while idling.

However, when I take it out for a ride, anything past 1/2 throttle open has no power.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 14, 2017, 07:47:56
It idles alot better now, also feel full power while idling.

However, when I take it out for a ride, anything past 1/2 throttle open has no power.


CV carbs on the 360, so throttle position has little to no meaning. 

At what rpm does it seem to lose power?  between 2500 and 5000rpm?

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 14, 2017, 07:58:23
I would say yes, closer to around 3k (sorry don't have a tach yet)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 14, 2017, 08:05:12
Did you check timing w a strobe to ensure you get full advance at 3000rpm?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 14, 2017, 08:29:55
Did you check timing w a strobe to ensure you get full advance at 3000rpm?
How would you do that? And what exactly does "full advance" mean?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 14, 2017, 08:47:52
First get your electrical sorted and buttoned up.  Then...

Pics From the workshop manual.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-150614084923-391856.jpeg)
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-150614084924-4001232.jpeg)

As engine rpm increases the advancer (located behind points plate) will cause the ignition to advance, keeping sparkplugs firing when they need to.  Otherwise it will overheat and/or lack power.

Around 3000 rpm, the timing mark on the stator should fall on or between the 2 advance marks. (no more, no less)  As shown above.

If it doesnt you will need to service, repair or replace advancer.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-130714073507-4591987.jpeg)

This can ONLY be checked using a stroboscopic timing light.
https://www.harborfreight.com/timing-light-with-advance-40963.html

Static timing is nothing more than a way to initially get the bike started and running.  Then you MUST fine tune the timing w a strobe light in order to get it dialed in to running properly.

   
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 14, 2017, 08:54:40
If its in the advancer.  Most likely old sticky grease or worn springs.  If its the springs (stretched and loose fitting), sometimes you can cut a coil out and bend the next coil to fit.  Or just disassemble clean and re-grease.

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 14, 2017, 09:30:04
So I set the timing gap with the strobe, but I don't understand how I would fine tune it for the advancer marks.

Am I doing this with the points cover and alternator cover off? And since the bike is on and revving, won't the stator be moving too fast for me to see it?

I'm assuming this whole procedure is in the manual?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 14, 2017, 09:32:07
If its in the advancer.  Most likely old sticky grease or worn springs.  If its the springs (stretched and loose fitting), sometimes you can cut a coil out and bend the next coil to fit.  Or just disassemble clean and re-grease.
Well I have inspected the advancer before when I replaced the seal behind it but it seemed in good condition and didn't seem stiff or worn
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 14, 2017, 12:53:47
I think your confusing a 'timing light' (12v bulb with some clips) and a 'timing light' (12v strobe connected to ignition left or right depending on which cylinder your checking)
 You need some way to have bike leaning to right or oil will run out when you remove generator cover (I put a piece of 1" thick wood under left leg of centre stand)
'Strobe' is connected to bike battery and 'thick lead' to spark plug.
The flash in sync with rotation allows you to see the timing marks on a running engine (same way a fluorescent tube can sometimes show spinning fan blades as stationary)
You use timing plate and points gap to get ignition timing 'spot on' and always check higher rpm by slowly opening throttle to see marks 'move' to full advance position.
Cheap timing light from Harbor Freight works as well as anything else out there, you don't need a 'professional' one (unless your going to start doing this 8 hrs a day?)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 14, 2017, 14:36:15
Actually the manual says very little about this procedure if memory serves.

A very important procedure, to make her run properly.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 14, 2017, 14:55:13
Actually the manual says very little about this procedure if memory serves.

A very important procedure, to make her run properly.
Any tips then? 😬
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 14, 2017, 16:31:36
Any tips then? 😬

Yes, get your electrics sorted out.  That may give me some time to find or put something together myself.   ;)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 15, 2017, 16:13:18
Good news!

Today I decided to go through the timing adjustment and carb sync (for the 4th time ) but this time I guess I did it right, because I can go faster than 30 mph now lol

But there are still some problems with it. Occasionally, when I pull the throttle quickly, there is some white smoke coming from the right muffler. I don't see it when I ride normally, only on those quick blips.

The only other issue I noticed was when im slowing down to a stop, the bike dies. Is this an electrical issue?

Also, when I did the timing adjustment, I noticed the right point contact plate isn't flat, like its worn more on one side.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 15, 2017, 17:24:40
It's more than likely a carb issue.
With stock airbox plus 'paper' filters, (even 'reconditioned' seem to work) the exhaust doesn't seem to matter (it does lean out with short systems requiring 'over size secondary main jets)
The stock carbs cannot simply be up jetted without various modifications if you fit K&N or Uni filters. Cheap 'pods' cause all sorts of issues, main problem is restricted airflow somewhere after 6~7,000 rpm.
You have 'second generation' 3 jet carbs, really the last ones that could be modified relatively easy.
A couple of people have found setting, parts and pieces that work for their set up 
As for one set of points 'wearing' more than the other, pretty normal event, particularly if ignition has been left on when one side points are closed (this can also heat return spring enough to cause miss-firing at lower rpm (generally around 5,000 up)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 15, 2017, 19:54:16
It's more than likely a carb issue.
With stock airbox plus 'paper' filters, (even 'reconditioned' seem to work) the exhaust doesn't seem to matter (it does lean out with short systems requiring 'over size secondary main jets)
The stock carbs cannot simply be up jetted without various modifications if you fit K&N or Uni filters. Cheap 'pods' cause all sorts of issues, main problem is restricted airflow somewhere after 6~7,000 rpm.

So I currently have the stock filters and stock mufflers on. Are there any other modifications the PO could have made that's causing the white smoke? Not sure if this matters, but on the right muffler air leaks from a few places.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 16, 2017, 07:53:18
Once set correctly carb sync shouldnt change.  As long as lock nut remains locked.

Did you get your battery replaced, charging system working properly AND timing set with a timing light?

As long as points are gapped to spec. and clean.  They should be fine.  Unless as PJ said.  The spring has been compromised due to overheating.

Not sure about white smoke unless youve got a cracked or poorly seated valve.  (blue smoke)
Maybe steam from water condensation evaporating out of the muffler???

(white) smoke is usually seen coming from vent tube in the head cover.  (Steam)  due to water condensation in the oil.

Dying on decel is most likely a lean condition.  You need to adj A/F mix or have dirty jetting, OR vacuum leaks.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 16, 2017, 08:06:02
If you want to make any change, mufflers or filter setup. 
I recommend sending your carbs to crazypj for proper modifications and overhaul.

But before doing that you really need to de-bug her first.  By getting everything set up to run decent and reliable.

A lot of times Electrical issues can "look" like carb problems, and, Carb issues can appear as electrical.
If you start making changes before solving problems they tend to snowball.  And you end up chasing your tail.
Wasting time and money.

Just make sure one system is correct, then move on to the next.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 16, 2017, 08:24:13
One of the very first things I do on my bikes is go through and clean EVERY single electrical connector.

From headlight bucket to tail light to bar controls to neutral switch and every one in between.

It takes some cussing a few hours.  But once its done its done.  And can eliminate a myriad of troublesome issues upfront.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-230515092728-10441711.jpeg)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 17, 2017, 00:19:36
A lot of times Electrical issues can "look" like carb problems, and, Carb issues can appear as electrical.
If you start making changes before solving problems they tend to snowball.  And you end up chasing your tail.
Wasting time and money.

Alright so I'll leave the engine/carbs alone for now and focus on the electrical since thats where it seems things are tripping up.

I'm definitely going to go through and clean all the cables and connectors to eliminate any issues there, and I definitely need a new battery as 48 hours of charging it did nothing for it. I'm planning on getting an AGM battery but I'm not sure how much CCA I need. I read some people saying 140 should be enough, but the on AutoZone the only batteries labeled as "12ah" had a CCA of 200 or higher.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 17, 2017, 08:46:36
If you plan on keeping the stock battery box in its stock location.  Just get an agm that fits it properly.
8 - 12ah will give you what you need.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 17, 2017, 09:40:28
If you plan on keeping the stock battery box in its stock location.  Just get an agm that fits it properly.
8 - 12ah will give you what you need.
But none of the AGM batteries I've seen show an "ah" value, only volts and CCA. I was wondering what is the CCA equivalent to 12 ah
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Jul 17, 2017, 10:24:19
AH and CCA are totally different measurements.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 17, 2017, 19:35:20
Your sure the 'white smoke' is actually smoke and not just water vapor as engine heats up?
With CCA, more is better as it gives a reserve. You only need about 35~40 amps to keep engine turning over and around 60~70 'spike' amps to get everything initially moving. 140 CCA in theory gives you 2 ~3 starts (it's actually higher number)
Just find the exterior dimensions you want and see what CCA it has. The battery number usually tells you the A/Hr (eg, BS12, YB14, etc)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 17, 2017, 20:17:57


Your sure the 'white smoke' is actually smoke and not just water vapor as engine heats up?

Well the smoke comes regardless of how hot the engine is. It only smokes when I'm revving the bike in idle, otherwise I'm not seeing any smoke when I'm riding (even at high rpms).

I'm afraid it could be oil smoke, but it doesn't smell like that and the smoke doesn't have any blue/grey tints to it.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 17, 2017, 22:11:46
Its the color of burning money.   ;)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 18, 2017, 10:01:48
Its the color of burning money.   ;)
Oh man this project has doubled the total cost of my bike, not to mention all the govt fees and taxes

Serious question tho: do you mean that the smoke is just my gas burning up, or that the engine is going to need more work?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 18, 2017, 18:11:22
Just leave it alone until you get it running consistently then 'we' can start doing various tests
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 21, 2017, 23:05:09
First I want to say thinks to everyone so far, it's been a really exciting/sad/expensive time but I've enjoyed every second of it!

So I replaced the dead battery and rectifier/regulator (the old regulator was rusted out)

I also finally got a tach and noticed that my idle was only at like 800rpm. So I synced the carbs again and it no longer dies while decelerating! ( I'm such an idiot )

Also checked to timing with the strobe light and it was within the specs.

So this is what's going on:
  - still the smoke from the right muffler, only when I rev while idling (from 2krpm and up)
  - the left muffler is just a bit hotter (like < 5° F)
  - it feels "weird" in the lower rpms, like a low growling noise, compared to 3k -5k
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Jul 22, 2017, 21:20:13
You now need to vacuum sync carbs and run it for at least 200 miles. If it's had a problem for a while you may just be heating up combustion chamber, exhaust port, pipe and silencer then burning out any crap that's built up.
Keep an eye on oil level and run it for a while (pretty much check oil level every 50~60 miles or every time you ride it if doing less)
 Idle adjuster is kinda 'hidden' behind clutch cable  at front of left carb
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 23, 2017, 09:51:17
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-021114155051.jpeg)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Jul 23, 2017, 19:40:35
You now need to vacuum sync carbs and run it for at least 200 miles.

So I followed this video when syncing my carbs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAhhMMnfN7Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAhhMMnfN7Q) Is this not vacuum syncing the carbs?

And I'll definitely be riding now that she works! Just gotta wait for the rain to pass  >:( Thanks for the tip on checking the oil level, I'll be keeping a close eye on that.

See you all in 200 miles  8)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Jul 24, 2017, 20:49:06
You got it.  8)  Now you can dial in Air/Fuel mix adjustment to its happy place. 
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 05, 2017, 15:29:49
Back with an update! (Not a good one unfortunately )

One day while I was starting my bike up I heard something like air seeping through the right carb, so I decided to take it off and check to diaphragm, which has a few tears in it )

Since this is just in the carb, the only thing I would need to redo is the carb sync right? Now it's just time to wait for the diagpgram to come in
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 05, 2017, 23:20:52
Stink!  a torn diaphragm shouldnt effect sync.  But its an easy thing to check. 

Where is the new diaphragm coming from?

Also, its best to run pure gas, as ethanol is a powerful solvent it will dry diaphragms and o-rings.

You can find a source here.
https://www.pure-gas.org
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 06, 2017, 03:45:12
The diaphragm was super hard to find, the only place I could find one (aftermarket) was from CMC.

And dang the closest gas station is about 50 miles in ever direction (living in Chicago) :(

What issue would a torn diaphragm cause then?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 06, 2017, 06:46:50
When the diaphragm is torn, the slide wont rise.  So, she will go lean in higher rpms.  Wont effect idle or lower rpm running at all.
for pure gas Im in the same boat.  Down here in Champaign Illinois. (3 hours south of you)
Its about a 1.5 hour round trip for me to get pure gas.  So I buy 10-15 gallons at a time.   >:(
Which reminds me its time for me to make the run.

Some guys claim to have good luck w aftermarket, I tried the JBM diaphragms once.  They went directly into the trash can. $40 for the pair wasted.  My 360 wasnt ridable with them.  http://jbmindustries.com/Keihin_diaphragm.html
They were too soft and would allow the slides to rise to quickly.  Making her run crazy rich around 2500 rpm.

I picked up new OEM Honda slides w diaphragms and springs.  (Kit #7 at local Honda dealer).  Runs like a champ now.  8)
I couldnt be happier w them. http://shop.sportlandmotorsports.com/OEMpartfinder.htm#/Honda/CB360TA_(76)_MOTORCYCLE,_JPN,_VIN%23_CB360-2200001/CARBURETOR/CB360T-76-JPN-A/2Y133871AE13387116A
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 06, 2017, 13:19:06


Down here in Champaign Illinois. (3 hours south of you)
Try a 1.5 hour drive 😏 (I drive down there alot to visit my gf at uofi)

Well hopefully the diaphragm I bought will work out, don't feel like spending $100 for the OEM one lol

So could that have been causing the smoke from the one side at higher rpms?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 06, 2017, 17:52:27
Heck we will have to get together sometime.  I work in the University Elevator shop.
Its about 3 hours from my house to O'hare.  I dont exactly live in Champaign but close enough.

I think maybe yes, ( Although, I dont recall mine smoking when it tore a diaphragm) its possible to think a torn diaphragm could cause some smoke at higher rpm.
Since she couldnt draw enough air through the carb. (slide being down)  She may have been sucking air from someplace oily.
Vacuum is a very powerful thing.

Yeah, I noticed the price.   :o  They have gone up substantially since I bought mine.  thinking I paid $140 for pair.
Fingers crossed.  Hopefully the CMC diaphragm is just the ticket for you.  :)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 06, 2017, 20:42:15
Heck we will have to get together sometime.  I work in the University Elevator shop.
Its about 3 hours from my house to O'hare.  I dont exactly live in Champaign but close enough.

That would be cool! Especially since you're the one why pretty fixed my bike up  ;D
And yeah normally its about a 2-3 hour drive down there, but with the right speed and an open road its easy to cut that time in half  8)

So most of what I've been seeing is that smoke is caused by bad rings/valves, but I've consistently been getting ~160 on my compression tests. Could you have good compression and still have bad rings/valves?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 10, 2017, 18:48:08
So this is kind of unrelated, but one of my blinker bulbs went out so I ordered some led ones (i recently upgraded the ones in my gauges to led too) but the leds I bought dont work. They were amber colored BA15S http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-BA15S-1156-24-LED-Yellow-Amber-Car-Bulb-1156-ba15s-Turn-Signal-Light/311920166763?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-BA15S-1156-24-LED-Yellow-Amber-Car-Bulb-1156-ba15s-Turn-Signal-Light/311920166763?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) and I tested the bulbs themselves and they work fine. I read that leds should work just fine.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Aug 10, 2017, 21:31:09
Did you change the blinker relay to electronic when you changed to LED bulbs? 
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 11, 2017, 08:12:17
Which bulb did you replace?  Front or rear?
Those LEDs are single filament bulbs.
They will only work in the front blinkers, not rear.
For rear you need dual filament.
If you replace them all you will need to add diodes to work w the single indicator on gauge.  (I get diodes from Sonrier at sparckmoto.com)

and as miller stated an electronic flasher. 

When do you expect to have the new diaphragms installed?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 11, 2017, 10:36:48
Which bulb did you replace?  Front or rear?
Those LEDs are single filament bulbs.
They will only work in the front blinkers, not rear.

Well the bike has aftermarket turning signals, and they are all single filament. I plan on purchasing the electronic flasher from Sonrier, but if I don't have the gauge indicator I don't need the diodes right?

Will the electronic flasher work with the cb360? Or is there anything I would need? (I already updated the regulator/rectifier)

Also, diaphragm comes in today
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Aug 11, 2017, 11:27:20
If you have a stock type flasher the indicators won't flash unless you fit a load resistor.
Cheaper and easier to get relay suitable for LED.
Single LED may not work on front if it has double contacts for running lights?
You won't need diodes if you don't have warning light
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 11, 2017, 21:38:40
The flasher he sells will plug right in.  If it still doesnt work w new flasher, swap the two wires on the flasher connectors.
No, if you dont have a gauge indicator you wont need any diodes.

BTW, are you only replacing the one diaphragm?  If so, I might think tuning the carbs could get a little wonky.
I wouldnt be surprised if the other diaphragm is soon to follow. 

A sure sign of a torn diaphragm is one white plug and the other dark. 

 
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 12, 2017, 14:39:43
I only replaced one diaphragm, I didn't want to order 2 because I wanted to know if this aftermarket one would work.

But, as usually, I noticed another problem   I put clear fuel lines on the bike, and I was going to warm the bike up before I did the carb sync, and saw that no fuel was going to the right carb. I took it out for a ride still, hoping something was just stuck, and after my ride fuel was in the tube, just none of it was going into the carb   is this going to require the carbs to rebuilt?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 12, 2017, 15:04:50
 
The float may be stuck closed.  Needing cleaned/cleared of debris.
Do you have inline filters?  I never had any luck w them.  I just count on the tap screens.  But my tank is pretty clean.
I also keep a small magnet in tap bowl to help catch any rusty particles.  It works well.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 12, 2017, 15:11:49
Well I did adjust the floats since they were about 6mm off. They werent stuck when I was adjusting them, could they have gotten stuck when I attached the bowl?

I'm having a hard time understanding where the fuel feeds from the tube into the carb, I dont see any paths from the fuel line.

And no, I  dont have inline filters. Fuel line goes straight from the pet cock to the carbs.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Aug 12, 2017, 15:21:31
I've done a load of 360 carbs, 6mm seems a lot to adjust but I have seen tem with very low float levels. Are you set at 19mm or 21mm?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: irk miller on Aug 12, 2017, 16:14:39
You said the line had no fuel in it when you started, but it was full when you got back?  That's normal.  The float doesn't open until you start to drain it while running.  If you have the lines off, or just installed them, then they'll stay empty until you use some fuel.  If no fuel was going into the carb, then the tube would never fill up.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 12, 2017, 17:00:21
I've done a load of 360 carbs, 6mm seems a lot to adjust but I have seen tem with very low float levels. Are you set at 19mm or 21mm?
I saw a tutorial online that said to adjust to 16mm, is that too low?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 12, 2017, 17:02:22
You said the line had no fuel in it when you started, but it was full when you got back?  That's normal.  The float doesn't open until you start to drain it while running.  If you have the lines off, or just installed them, then they'll stay empty until you use some fuel.  If no fuel was going into the carb, then the tube would never fill up.

Truth.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 12, 2017, 17:04:28
I saw a tutorial online that said to adjust to 16mm, is that too low?

Yes too low.  Like PJ said.  19 - 21.  I have mine at 19 he likes them at 21mm.  Anywhere in there will be a good place to start.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 12, 2017, 17:05:18
The fuel comes into carbs through the needle valve attached to the float.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 12, 2017, 17:05:26


You said the line had no fuel in it when you started, but it was full when you got back?

Well one line filled with fuel and the other was empty when I first opened the pet cock. Then when I came back both had fuel, but the left only had fuel on the carb side, and the right had fuel only on the pet cock side.

Also, when I was riding, it accelerated really slowly. What would cause that?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 12, 2017, 17:54:49
running on one cylinder.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 12, 2017, 17:57:09
the left only had fuel on the carb side, and the right had fuel only on the pet cock side.

confusing.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 12, 2017, 18:37:51
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170812/37418ed812e7c85b4f72c1dd34207fc6.jpg)

Sorry I didn't know how to explain it correctly, but from my understanding the fuel on the far line isn't getting into the carb?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 12, 2017, 20:26:38
If the fuel line is touching the engine or close to touching.  It could be boiling the fuel inside the line. 
Cut lines as short as possible without kinking.  And make sure they dont touch anything.

fuel can boil at 90f degrees.  Boiling fuel will cause bubbles to form inside the lines.

I have heavy duty black fuel line w insulation sock on mine and heat shield under the tank.  To prevent this exact thing.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: furu14 on Aug 14, 2017, 13:06:31
I think you got a stuck float/needle..it shoud have filled the vertical tube..
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Aug 14, 2017, 18:52:06
read the previous post. It's weird but completely normal to see air in 360 fuel lines. Trek has thebest idea having heat shielding on lines.
The carbs get very hot when bike is runnng, the main cooling is from fuel evaporating. 16mm float height will cause real rich mixture at all engine speeds.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 14, 2017, 19:47:14
You just need to sort out one problem at a time. 

Did you get the new diaphragm installed?

Keep in mind a torn diaphragm will make it go lean in higher rpm.

No fuel in the carb bowl will make it go lean in all rpm.   ;)

A lean condition is more damaging (over heating, cracked valves, holed pistons...etc) to the engine than rich condition.  So, dont let her run lean.

With the engine cold.  Open bowl drain screw and drain carb bowl, leave bowl drain screw open, open fuel tap, float needle should be open and gas will start to pour out of bowl drain, close bowl drain screw.  If no fuel comes out after opening fuel tap, you got a stuck float/needle. 



Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 14, 2017, 20:21:15
Heat shield on my fuel lines.  Lines cut as short as possible without kinks.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-140817182019.jpeg)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Aug 14, 2017, 20:59:11
Did you do underneath tank with heat reflective tape?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 14, 2017, 21:16:30
Did you do underneath tank with heat reflective tape?

Yes, but my CL350 tank sits closer to the engine than a stock 360 tank.
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Aug 14, 2017, 22:26:39
I've been thinking of fitting a 'Tufnol' plate to the mounting plate to deflect some of the heat away from carbs. I have some about 1/16" thick sheet. The carb mounting plate has the ejection pin bosses that could easily be drilled at tapped 3mm~4mm.

Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: trek97 on Aug 15, 2017, 06:27:20
I've been thinking of fitting a 'Tufnol' plate to the mounting plate to deflect some of the heat away from carbs. I have some about 1/16" thick sheet. The carb mounting plate has the ejection pin bosses that could easily be drilled at tapped 3mm~4mm.

Ive worked plenty on carbs w engine hot enough to burn my knuckles. 
But dont recall being overly concerned about the temp of the carb bodies. (at the time)

Next time I go for a ride I will check the temp of the bodies.

I used the gold foil tape to shield the 360 tank w great success.
 
Now got a scrap of "the good stuff" left over from the BMW tank.

Its self adhesive fiberglass mat w aluminum shielding.  It could be cut to fit and adhere directly onto carb mount plate.

Your idea of a separate plastic shield w larger air space between would be best.  I had to google "Tufnol"  haha.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-150817041211.jpeg)

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-150817041745.jpeg)
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Aug 17, 2017, 13:33:20
Not sure the BM needs the expensive shielding as te flying brick has most of the heat well away from tank. I know it won't arm anything though and may well keep fuel cooler. Any idea if fuel economy is better with it?
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: rsjudka on Aug 19, 2017, 19:20:07
Back from a well-needed vacation, and I think it's awesome that you guys started having convos about your own bikes here, really interesting stuff!

I just installed my new flasher, and although the stock lights are brighter, the LEDs still aren't working. What are some things I should look at to see what could be the issue? (using aftermarket turning signals w/ pos and neg wires)

BTW, I did try to swap the two wires on the flasher connectors, but that only made the filament bulbs not work
Title: Re: 1974 CB360 Engine Troubles (I think)
Post by: crazypj on Aug 21, 2017, 14:25:12
What colour wires are coming from aftermarket indicators?
 You may have running lights in them and need body grounded?