Aftermarket vintage sportbike engines, why aren't there any?

How many of those choppers with aftermarket V twins take or pass an emission test? We don't have the tests here anyway.

Stuff like this is usually sold as closed course. What the buyer does with it is up to them and their local and state laws. I don't see how it's different than building a chopper. Those aftermarket chopper chassis are probably more of a hassle to register than putting an RZ500 clone into an existing R6 or similar.

KTM, Husqvarna, Gas Gas, Beta two strokes can still be plated in lots of places in the US.

I wish I was in the market for an aftermarket knucklehead. Above my paygrade but I'm glad they are there. Two strokes are easy enough to have street legal around here in the southwest, I know a few guys with them. As for the whole "old engine cloning", I'm guessing there are very different licensing issues a play with the designs that would make it complicated.

Think of this for a second, why are 2-strokes so unclean?
because they burn their oil and on most, unburnt fuel can exit the combustion chamber.

The second one can and has been solved with direct injection
The only problem remaining is the burning oil...
What if there was a diaphragm between the crank and the intake...
piston goes up,
and the diaphragm balloons towards the engine
piston goes down
diaphragm balloons out towards transfer ports

This would separate the crank from the air coming in, so it could be filled with engine oil.
I know there are many flaws with this, but we can always dream eh?

farmer92 said:

Think of this for a second, why are 2-strokes so unclean?
because they burn their oil and on most, unburnt fuel can exit the combustion chamber.

The second one can and has been solved with direct injection
The only problem remaining is the burning oil...
What if there was a diaphragm between the crank and the intake...
piston goes up,
and the diaphragm balloons towards the engine
piston goes down
diaphragm balloons out towards transfer ports

This would separate the crank from the air coming in, so it could be filled with engine oil.
I know there are many flaws with this, but we can always dream eh?

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No.

Smoke em if you got em

Here's some interesting stuff:


http://www.mattoonmachine.com/Billet_Cases.html



8)

What sort of budgets are we talking here for an engine? Expect £8,000 to £12,000 for a new single or twin over here. That won't include carbs, ignition, clutch or transmission.

Plus, what's the intended frame / chassis?

Tune-A-Fish said:

No.

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care to elaborate? ???

UK Mark said:

What sort of budgets are we talking here for an engine? Expect £8,000 to £12,000 for a new single or twin over here. That won't include carbs, ignition, clutch or transmission.

Plus, what's the intended frame / chassis?

Click to expand...

My idea was an inline 4 ready with all the peripherals shoot for $6,000. Obviously to do that it would require a decent quantity per producton run. As for the frame, why not have one made for the motor also available? Easy to keep the price around 1k. I think from a revenue standpoint, the idea would be to emulate the current market. Assume the greatest revenue stream to be all the ancillaries, since the lowest net revenue would be on the motor. Once someone buys your motor design, they have committed to purchasing at least some additional components. I'm not a patent attorney, but I'm certain a degree of difference can be engineered into it to separate it from current patents without much issue. So yes, I am talking a 7 figure venture.

If I were to actually try to source funding for this kind of project, I'd want to know:

Costs for
Design
prototype
redesign (each time this is done)
final digital plans
patents
Sourcing for manufacture
tooling
Marketing expense
unit production to cover initial investment


That's just to name a small part. Once I know at least that much, it would dictate what strength the market requires for such a venture to reach solvency. For example. If it only took 100 motors/attributed peripherals to recoup the initial investment, I'd wager there is at least 100 people who would have interest. If it took 1000, 2,000,or 3000 units, the risk exponentially increases.

I'm not sure I could even assemble something like this on my own, but I am willing to bet just from this forum and the expertise of its constituents, the attributed number could be determined.

I think I need to clarify who I think the market is. The markets is not someone who WANTS to build the motor on their project. The market is someone who has no desire. Also for all the builders out there, the time to restore a motor vs uncrating a new motor, to some there must be an appeal. From their customers perspective, a new engine brings a lot of merit, not to mention can have a higher price tag/ profit margin for the builder.

I have been a manager in manufacturing for 15 years now and I can tell you straight up that the market makers wont budge on a dime without PO's for the first 50% and an almost guaranteed ROI for anything outside of commodity products.

This all sounds like a great plan to bring our hobby to a more marketable product, but if you really dig in right here on DTT the industry (as builders) is not rich enough to support a line of new retro motors and the buyers love the built not bought story.

As a shark would say... "for those reasons, I'm out"

Again, not being argumentative but why would anyone spend $6000 for an engine like this? For half of that I could buy an original motor, completely rebuild it with upgrades and stick it in any frame I choose.

In regards to the VTwin Harley clones, they sell because the originals are difficult to source, expensive as all get out, and parts are unobtainium. Or in the case of the modern style motors, the crate lump is cheaper than the factory or already built to outperform them for less or equivalent to what it would cost you to do it yourself.

VonYinzer said:

Again, not being argumentative but why would anyone spend $6000 for an engine like this? For half of that I could buy an original motor, completely rebuild it with upgrades and stick it in any frame I choose.

In regards to the VTwin Harley clones, they sell because the originals are difficult to source, expensive as all get out, and parts are unobtainium. Or in the case of the modern style motors, the crate lump is cheaper than the factory or already built to outperform them for less or equivalent to what it would cost you to do it yourself.

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Sidebar... I just found a complete set of harley NOS jugs and flat top heads all for under $500. I don't need them, but will buy them categorize them and when I die my kid will have them to sell when he's old.

I think for a new engine, $6k probably wouldn't be out of the way. Sure, you can re-build an old motor for half that, but it's still an old engine.

Thing is, if you're not careful you would end up with a non-descript, low volume motor that few would have confidence in purchasing. Similarly with the frame, unless it was a replica of say, a Seeley, Harris, Egli, or Norton frame then it's an expensive 'Unknown' chassis. Beyond that type of era and a cafe (I do cringe at that Cliche) is no longer and it's a superbike.

My money would be on the classic race bike replica, typically something like a Suzuki XR69 which you can build with 100% new parts. Or, you could use recycled components such as an old engine.

Guys drop $6k on a "V-Twin" because they think they are building a $75k bike.
Not that many guys are playing the cheap and dirty dress up game with a twin like they are with a CB360.

While there is no catalogue of engines like from Summit, in the SOHC CB750 world there are plenty of builders that can take your core and actually rebuild it. Not talking about cleaning covers and replacing gaskets. I mean a real rebuild where things are measured and replaced if needed.

With all of these options I don't see a need for a "Crate Engine" option.

In the Honda world it is also nice that the OEM still supports the product. Unsure how true that is with a shovelhead...

If you really wanted to fill a void for the vintage market I would look more into reproducing old school speed parts.
Lets see someone make some new magneto drives, or weber carb manifolds? Maybe some updated version of hilborn injection that actually works on the street? How about a selection of nice period wheels with modern materials?

Surffly pretty much nailed it. Most of the stuff S&S etc. are selling are going into $30k+ bikes. You would think the same would apply for vintage but when these old gals are cheap and plentiful the market just isn't there. I'd like to see somebody pumping out repro Drouin superchargers. They can have all my money.

If you want to send me a Webber manifold, I'd be happy to replicate it.

VonYinzer said:

Again, not being argumentative but why would anyone spend $6000 for an engine like this? For half of that I could buy an original motor, completely rebuild it with upgrades and stick it in any frame I choose.

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This...

J-Rod10 said:

If you want to send me a Webber manifold, I'd be happy to replicate it.

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You cast?

I'd love to see a 1,000cc billet 2 stroke triple or four on the street.








I need to find someone with more money than brains to fund this. ;D Actually, most people who know me believe I qualify, but I still don't have that kinda scratch.

surffly said:

You cast?

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Know a guy locally with a foundry.