Japanese rising sun patch

Ok this question may seem Fd up but I need some opinions. I am doing a shirt with a bunch of patches.....cafe, Yamaha....piss ups etc. my question is is it tacky or disrespectful to put a Japanese rising sun patch on? I know the patch "can" be associated with the kamikaze pilot. Being a true blooded American ......the kamikaze concept of killing Americans does not sit good with me or others. Am I over thinking this or should I consider the rising sun patch as a symbol of the Japanese bikes I love and ride or a symbol of a bunch of crazy asses brutally killing my fellow Americans many years ago?

tonofun said:

Ok this question may seem Fd up but I need some opinions. I am doing a shirt with a bunch of patches.....cafe, Yamaha....piss ups etc. my question is is it tacky or disrespectful to put a Japanese rising sun patch on? I know the patch "can" be associated with the kamikaze pilot. Being a true blooded American ......the kamikaze concept of killing Americans does not sit good with me or others. Am I over thinking this or should I consider the rising sun patch as a symbol of the Japanese bikes I love and ride or a symbol of a bunch of crazy asses brutally killing my fellow Americans many years ago?

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The Rising Sun was the flag of Imperial Japan, and all of their military, not just kamikazes. It's not like the WWII German flag in that it's very charged politically, the rising sun motif is pretty much lacking in any kind of issue that i've ever heard of.

Go for it, the only person really concerned about it is most likely you. Hell, I rock one on my riding leathers, and no one has said word-one about it.

Thanks Swiss...kinda what I was thinkin.

I'm an eight-year U.S. Army vet, and I have a Japan flag on one sleeve and an Japanese ensign flag on the other. I've never had anyone say anything about it to me.
I'm also of Italian, Japanese and German descent, so when it comes to any WWII reference (I have grandfathers who fought on both sides), I'm all mixed up in it.

I shall put in a dissenting opinion.

Under the Rising Sun of Imperial Japan the Chinese were considered sub-human. Japanese soldiers raped and killed thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Chinese women and children; murdered tens of thousands of Chinese men and boys, many in beheading contests; cut infants from their mother's wombs to be used for bayonet practice, then raped and killed the mothers; and all was done under the watchful eye and full consent of Japanese military leadership.

Under the Rising Sun of Imperial Japan Chinese POWs were utilized as guinea pigs in order for Japanese bomb-makers and surgeons could perfect their craft. Those unlucky enough to survive the shrapnel wounds inflicted by the detonation of experimental bombs would be subjected to operations to remove said shrapnel without the aid of anesthetics.

Under the Rising Sun of Imperial Japan, American POWs on the island of Chichi-jima were carved alive so their flesh could be eaten by Japanese military officers. In other POW camps, American, British, Chinese, and others were shot to death, forced into holes where they would be drenched in gasoline and burned to death, beheaded, beaten to death, used for bayonet practice, and starved to death.

Do not misunderstand me, these things happened a long time ago, but I think it is reasonable to say that the Rising Sun of Imperial Japan is representative of the government, military, and peoples who committed, aided, or consented to these atrocities, and so I think it would be quite disrespectful to display the Rising Sun of Imperial Japan.

As for the "American War Crimes of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I'll simply post this quote: "You did exactly the right thing because Japan would have resisted an invasion using every man, woman and child armed with sticks and stones, if necessary. And that would have been an awful slaughter." -Mitsuo Fuchida (to Brigadier General Paul W. Tibbets)

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

I'd like to add to the discussion here a bit. I had the same idea with my build. I was thinking of putting the rising sun flag on the tank but being a graphic designer I like to research and know the story behind a design and its origin. I had my concerns as well because the flag is that of the Imperial Navy, which we all know launched those kamikaze pilots. That said, every country (including us) has done some stuff under the flag that no one is proud of. While the kamikaze association is a pretty terrible one, I didn't want it to ruin my opinion of an entire country. This is especially true since the flag was first introduced in the late 1800's, no where near the war. I went one step further and spoke with a Japanese friend about it and what he said is the ultimate reason I chose not to display it. He said that the flag was at first a sign of pride/nationalism but after the war it was viewed quite differently. He said that the view is some what split but most see the rising sun flag as a sign of aggression/imperialism/ultra nationalism. He went on to say that the flag now represents a period in Japans history that most Japanese would no longer want to be a part of. I could see that he was uncomfortable, almost embarrassed while explaining it to me.

So...After my education I not only see the flag as offensive to Americans but also to many Japanese people as well. Hope this helps in your decision making. Again, as a designer I feel that most people don't see or understand the implication that symbols and logos have on each of us. Funny how one little dot with a bunch of lines can stir up emotions and memories.

This all goes to show there are many opinions and views on the matter of flags (heck, lets talk about the Confederate flag while we're at it) or other symbols. Educate yourself and make a personal decision, based entirely on how you feel and interpret the historical accounts associated with one symbol or another.

I would also like to note that the Japanese continue to use the Rising Sun flag as their Naval Ensign to this day.

Geeez......alot of opinions out there and I am glad... I appreciate the input! I am still up in the air on this. After a google search and 3 cups of coffee, I think a japanese rising sun on one arm and the good old american flag on the other may be a nice mix. maybe after a 3 beers my thoughts may change :-\

tonofun said:

Geeez......alot of opinions out there and I am glad... I appreciate the input! I am still up in the air on this. After a google search and 3 cups of coffee, I think a japanese rising sun on one arm and the good old american flag on the other may be a nice mix. maybe after a 3 beers my thoughts may change :-\

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Go for it, I'd buy one. Not saying anyone in this thread is wrong of course, just saying that by and large, I've never had anyone be remotely upset by someone sporting a rising sun on their shirt, jacket, or bike... The same cannot be said if someone was repping the Nazi flag of the period of course. Why that is is because in the minds of most people I've met they tie the flag of the German State of the period directly to the state ideology of Nazism and its evil actions, where as most people do not tie the Rising Sun symbol to any comparative Japanese Ideology, not saying evil actions were not perpetrated under the flag (or our flag, or any flag), but that those evil actions are not tied to the flag as a Symbol.

The "nazi" flag was only used by the Nazi party. Its completely different than the Japanese "Rising Sun". The "Rising Sun" is still used in Japan, as stated above, and not only in a goverment/military fashion. Its used in advertising, design, fashion, art, etc... As with every decision, the final lies with you, but really people. The "Rising Sun" flag no more represents the glorification of a dark time in Japanese culture than any other symbol does for any other nation. I certainly dont think that every "rocker" out there with a Union Jack on his coat is reveling in the many atrocities committed by the British Empire over several hundred years. Just as I seriously doubt my buddy of Russian descent proudly wears his Imperial Russian flag patch as a tribute to the days when that society wiped 1000s of people off of the map in the name of imperialism.

Swivel said:

The U.S. A-bomb and firebomb attacks on Japanese cities were war crimes by any rational standard and attacks on civilians.The Japanese were only weeks away from complete (if not unconditional) surrender anyhow.War crimes are committed by every nation and victors justice always hides the fact.....

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If it were really the case that the Japanese were to surrender, I would agree with you. But it is not the case, and even after the bombing of Nagasaki, the military hierarchy wished to continue the war. Emperor Hirohito violated the Japanese constitution by weighing in on the side of surrender, an effort that did eventually end the war, but was arrested in an attempted coup. The coup was only thwarted when the tape made by Hirohito, admonishing the Japanese to "endure the unendurable" (the address never did mention the word "surrender") was not found.

During WWII, American troops did indeed commit crimes and atrocities, but these atrocities were not part of American policy. The Japanese atrocities against the Chinese, Philippine, and Korean citizens, not to mention against the Chinese, Philippine, Korean, U.S. and British POWs, were a part of official Japanese war policy. Japan was the only belligerent in all of WWII which had contained within their military code of conduct, rules concerning which prisoners could be eaten.

That being said, I did not realize that Japan has been using the WWII Naval Ensign as its flag for the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force. As that is the case, I think the use of the Naval Ensign would be appropriate as it is the flag of a peaceful Japan.

Here is the WWII Naval Ensign and current flag of the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force.

I think this flag is OK as it is being used by a peaceful Japan.



Here is the War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army.

This flag was in use by the aggressive forces of Imperial Japan from 1870-1945 and thus I think its use would be disrespectful of the hundreds of thousands of victims of the Imperial Japanese.

One last note: Thank you to all who have put in their opinions in a respectful and civil manner. Discussions such as this are often quite heated, and it is a pleasure to have them in such a respectful manner!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

I never knew there were two versions. Very cool stuff!

Swivel said:

Use any symbol you like.Anybody who gets upset over a flag design needs professional help.The swastika is an ancient symbol still used almost the half the world over.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The Japanese use the rising sun design on "good catch" fishing flags,its a benign old thing these days.....

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That is the beauty of it though, right? To some its benign...to some it instills pride...to some it brings horrible memories about. Symbols cause different reactions based on each individuals experiences and history with that image. I think its wild and amazing how a simple logo or image can cause one reaction in you and a completely different reaction in me. At the end of the day, if your cool with the image you want to display then thats really all that matters.

I have the rising sun tattooed on my arm, real big like. When I was in Singapore (the didn't have such a time under Japanese rule) all I got was compliments. I also wear a rising sun patch on the collar of my vest. Are people offended? I dunno, but I'm not too concerned about it. Old folks used to get pretty worked up over my hammer and sickle T-shirt I rocked throughout my teenage years, but then I was trying to be somewhat offensive.

I also have a Galactic Empire tattoo, and although fictional, they were a pretty genocidal bunch. Havn't had an Aldaranian come up and give me shit yet.

What I'm saying here is don't worry about it.

ProSimex said:

I have the rising sun tattooed on my arm, real big like. When I was in Singapore (the didn't have such a time under Japanese rule) all I got was compliments. I also wear a rising sun patch on the collar of my vest. Are people offended? I dunno, but I'm not too concerned about it. Old folks used to get pretty worked up over my hammer and sickle T-shirt I rocked throughout my teenage years, but then I was trying to be somewhat offensive.

I also have a Galactic Empire tattoo, and although fictional, they were a pretty genocidal bunch. Havn't had an Aldaranian come up and give me shit yet.

What I'm saying here is don't worry about it.

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You rat bastard, I lost an Uncle on Hoth.

i dont believe any one would find it any more offensive than the Japanese bike your riding.

Well... Ya know the first Hondas were just bicycles with wartime surplus motors attached. Better toss out all Hondas, lest someone is offended. And oh man, BMW manufactured bikes for the Nazi war effort. Burn those too. Mercedes handbuilt limos for Hitler. Obviously my Jewish neighbor was unaware of that when he bought that new SLK for his wife a couple years ago. I should tell him so he can get rid of it. Whew... How embarrassed and enraged he'll be. Come to think of it, my family was forced out of their Belfast home by the Brits in the early 1900s. Knowing that, if I ever run into any of you Triumph, BSA, Norton, etc. owners... Its war.

VonYinzer said:

Come to think of it, my family was forced out of their Belfast home by the Brits in the early 1900s. Knowing that, if I ever run into any of you Triumph, BSA, Norton, etc. owners... Its war.

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say the word ill come help o and a few years back vw and benz dam near went under due to class action law suits with several different jewish groups for there involvment in the war effort they managed to keep out of the news for the most part that little beatle ant so cute not is it

You mean the Beetle that many here LOVE, that was basically designed under Hitlers watchful eye by Dr. Porsche as a car for the people? The German people? Well, those that love the Beetle must be Nazi sympathizers. Bastards. Oh, shit... Ive owned a '66 Beetle. God I hate me.

Im just having a go with this thread of course, but seriously... Lets all relax. Youre not carving a swastika into your forhead and screaming lines from Mein Kampf out of your bedroom window.