torque stainless engine bolts?

jonwright

surfing and motorcycles.... yup
Ok so I have a CB360 and I need to know what to torque the engine case bolts to or if a even need to use a torque wrench. I am using stainless bolts and I have anti seize. Do I just get it tight/sealed or does it need to be like dead on XX ftlbs? and if so does using stainless hardware change anything? sorry if this is a dumb question. and thanks for any help on the subject.
 
Use standard torque on 6mm case bolts, 4~7ft lbs (it's real low, you will probably be able to over tighten using the 'short' arm of Allen key)
Usually recommended to use inch pound torque wrench, ft/lb are not accurate at very low settings (84 in/lbs
 
Good question and good advice. Just don't use a ginormous honking wrench as it's really easy to strip these. Honestly I haven't used a torque wrench on the engine side covers in years - it's important to get a 'feel' for these bolts. I'd suggest tightening in a criss-cross pattern as well when possible, like you do on the cylinder head etc.

A small hand held allen key will get them plenty tight. Nothing is going to blow up if you don't get them tight enough.
 
Stainless fasteners often will tolerate more torque than the original fasteners, but what they are screwing into does not. :)

Here is a little about the physics of fastener torque.

Engineers don't think of fasteners in terms of torque so much as they think of fasteners under tension. Torque is simply a way of applying a measured amount of tension on a fastener. Thing is, there are a lot of variables as to how much tension a fastener will have for a given torque. Diameter, thread pitch, and material all play a factor in the engineer's calculations for how much torque should be applied to a fastener. These are all things that the engineer can control. What they can't control is a whole array of factors that we, as the mechanic, can affect. Surface contamination, thread lubricant, and fastener fatigue are all field conditions that affect how well a fastener will hold.

Think of a fastener as a spring. What keeps it tight, is its elasticity. The fastener and the components being fastened are under tension, and distort from the tension. If a fastener is over-tightened, it is like over-stretching a spring. It will lose it's original ability to hold tension. Thermal changes during operation can significantly affect the tension on a fastener system. (By "system" I mean the assembly of fastener, and the components being fastened.) A good example to illustrate would be a Harley Evo engine. When the engine is cold, there is inadequate tension on the cylinder/head studs. They are long fasteners, and the cylinder/head "stack" is quite tall and made of aluminum. The aluminum expands much more than the steel cylinder studs as the engine heats up. It is well known that hard acceleration on a cold Evo engine can cause cylinder base gasket leakage. They should always be run gently until the engine is warmed up and cylinder stud tension increases. The point I am making is that the desired tension on a fastener needs to be within a range that has enough tension to seal when cold, yet not overstretch the fastener at operating temperatures.

What are those factors that we encounter in the field that affect fastener tension? What should we do about them?

Fastener friction is a BIG factor in how much tension you have for a given torque. Engineering calculations require clean threads lubricated with oil. If a screw has surface corrosion and is installed dry, it will not have the required tension, and you might have leakage. On the other hand, anti-seize can reduce the amount of torque needed to achieve the required tension by as much as 20%.

In your case here, you are using a higher strength fastener than the original, and because the thread penetration is a lot of threads into the case, You can easily have more tension on the new screws than the original screws ever had. That is OK, but you don't want to crush the gasket.

ALWAYS use anti-seize on stainless fasteners. Stainless has a tendency to weld in place. (Usually referred to as galling.) This can make the fastener hard to get out in the future, often damaging threads on removal. Also, there should be a little anti-seize on the underside of the fastener head.

Most torque specs give a range of torque. If using anti-seize on any fastener, use the lower end of that torque range. There is so much less friction when installing the fastener with anti-seize, that it takes less torque to achieve the required tension.

As far as engine case screws and using stainless socket head cap screws, I skip the torque wrench simply because I have an experienced feel for how tight things should be. You would be surprised by how many fasteners get stripped or broken because the less experienced mechanic was using a torque wrench. The torque may be given in in/lbs, and the mechanic sets the torque wrench to ft/lbs. BAD mojo! It's a more common mistake than you might think. Tool rental places have told me of guys renting a torque wrench, and not knowing that when the wrench clicks, you are torqued. They would just keep tightening until the head bold snaps.

Tighten your case screws in stages. It doesn't really matter whether you do a criss-cross pattern, or just run around the perimeter one screw after the other so long and you tighten the screws in at least 3 stages. I usually use a criss-cross pattern only on the final stage of tightening. Just use common sense. You can "feel" the elasticity of the fastener when you tighten. Just use the plain allen wrench without any kind of additional leverage. Try to make each stage of tightening as consistent and even as you can. Hold the wrench in a similar manner each time so that you can be consistent. For example, don't do one fastener pulling with your fingertips, and the next fastener by pushing with your palm.

Head bolts are more critical, and I always use a torque wrench on them.
 
wow that was awesome. you guys are super helpful. Having never done this stuff before I lack a lot of confidence building this bike. But you guys always have never let me down. Thanks again! If I ever get this CB360 running it'll be all because of the fine folks on DTT!
 
It's cheaper than Helicoils ;D
The learning curve can be pretty steep with small bolts, it's far safer to recommend an inch pounds torque wrench than try to explain why Helicoils are better than Timeserts for most applications.
You 'should' use a nickel based anti seize, the chromium in stainless reacts with alloy of cases and rots out the threads.
I've used the Wurth version of Copperslip for years without any issues though
 
these are the cover screws? (bolt is a term used to describe a screw intended to be used with a nut, screw is a term for a screw to be used with no nut) you said case bolts, so that made me think of the big 8mm ones that hold the bearings in place. if case screws, go with pj, or the german method of gutentite, if you're talking about the 8mm ones, then the german method would suggest fakkentite
 
yea I was refering to the side cover screws. sorry if that was a little confusing. I saw somebody else say you needed to use nickle based anti seize, but everybody else I talked to said that nickle based was overkill and that it has a much higher heat resistance but that there was no way a cb360 motor could get hot enough to cause problems with normal permatex antiseize. and it said it was fine for stainless. so I used normal antisieze. fingers crossed it wont cause some catostrphic problem.
 
go figure. i had a thing of grease lying around but i didnt put the side cover screws in till i had done like a weeks worth of research. oh well. thats what i get for over thinking haha the anti seize should do its job fine though
 
Bolts should always be oiled. never dry and most torque settings are for oiled bolts but check the manual to be sure on that point. There's a large difference in torque/tightness dry versus lubed.

At least that's what we learned in Rolls Royce Aero engine school IIRC. Boy was that a long time ago...
 
Could be right about those side covers but I think you will find that most torque settings are for oiled fasteners and that's why it's important to check what they specify. Engine bolts etc are typically supplied from vendors pre-lubed. They are oily out of the box AFAIK.

That said, I have not been in a Japanese bike manufacturing plant so i can't confirm that's what happens today but it was common practice in the auto industry.
 
The robots putting them together probably pick them out of a bin from manufacturer where ROLLED or CUT threads are made with lubricant, ergo, the bolts would be oiled from new (the plating would also act a a lubricant when new)
Chromed fasteners are probably dry from 'wash'
 
Chrome is also comparatively slippery. Engineering specs for torque vary depending on any kind of surface treatment like plating. Rolled or cut threads make a difference, too. Rolled threads are always stronger for a given material, for one, as well as being smoother.

A lot of OEM bolts and screws come with a pre-applied capsule of thread lock, which acts somewhat as a lubricant. Example, Harley says in the service manuals to always use new fasteners when installing a brake rotor. It isn't because they are fatigued, but because the new fastener has the thread lock. I always re-use and apply thread lock after cleaning the threads with a wire wheel.
 
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