Scorpio - why my Cafe Racer's not finished

Rat,

we have them in the UK too. In fact I wouldn't be an auto design engineer if I hadn't checked out the "competition " before putting pen to paper !!!

The Spyder is basically the concept our first two abhortive attempts followed - a back end of a bike rammed into a car style front end !

Note the little fixes that went in with the Spyder - very small diameter front wheels, very long rear end AND more stability control electronics than a Space Shuttle.

I rode one - two actually the Tourer and the Sports - and my reaction was ................well I honestly thought I was going to end up into the path of oncoming traffic on the other side of the road a couple of times. I thought maybe it was me - but check out the Spyder site for recalls and problems. That's why I arranged to ride a second version, in case the first one wasn't quite right. Lurch oversteer comes to mind. You can't fault the quality of the parts and the overall effect - but my riding experience was not a happy one.

Using the Riley and Foale geometry and dynamics as a baseline - the Spyder would have to be about 6 feet longer [ at the rear ] to be anywhere near.

Another stab at the Reverse Trike is the TriRod [ US based ] - evil looking [ in a good way ] and that was my inspiration for the style we wanted to go for - Hooligan.

I haven't ridden this one - but I'm intrigued that the rear wheel seems to have been moved back a foot or so?

The third commercially available Reverse trike is the Taurus by a Swiss company renowned for their quads. I think they may have been sucked in as we were initially - how difficult can it be to throw one wheel away at the back. Again it's a beautiful piece of engineering - in fact automotive art would be an apt description. But again using the Riley and Foale parameters ......................

When we used the Riley and Foale findings as our basis all became clear - and I resorted to how I started in my working life 50 years ago - I sat down, thought about it and then drew up a set of plans using ye olde fashioned, pencil paper and drawing board !

Bear in mind - all the foregoing refers to sit on style rather than Morgan car style - which is far simpler to get right.

BTW - sad to say we were met with a bit of a disaster this morning - the guys who were responsible for taking off the king mould from the finished bodywork fucked up and didn't put enough release gel on the body. Fortunately we do have another rough body shape taken from the flash moulds - but we now only have 8 days to the show...not looking good my mates.

Here's the CG Taurus - looks like it's run into something ...

Styling is a bit......, but you can't fault the quality of the manufacture. IMO - way to high COG - too short wheelbase.

Hmmmm won't load, sorry - check out their site.

Its a bugger when that happens. Ive used all sorts of release agents, carnuba wax works the best I find.

I wouldn't mind Rat , but these guys do it for a living !!!!!!!! :

Official apology to those several UK based guys I was hoping to meet at the Stafford show - not happening I'm afraid. :'(

There's no way we can get the second prototype mould prepped, product out, finalised and painted, mould taken off and repeat prior to the show. ........................
Gutted.

However, we WILL be at the sister show in April 2011 and the Scorpio will be launced [ media ] this side of Christmas. 8)

Production?

Oooops, did I not say Rat ................

OK, like most things in my life [ truly], what started out as a "wouldn't that be a good idea" has morphed into a potential commercial entity !

I went to my pal at Realm 3 years ago with a "plan" for a reverse Trike that I planned to build for when the arthritis in my right knee finally took over and prevented any further solo riding. :'(

I looked hard and long at the options and came up with the BMW Kay [ Brick ] powerplant that I was using for my Fighters. Reason - VERY low COG, powerful [sic] torquey and bulletproof 'ish.

Using my pal's facilities we then looked at alternates, as he was also interested for pretty much the same reasons.

We went down a couple of blind alleys, before coming back to the previous concept of a BMW lump. However, in the interim it became obvious that the Brick was ending it's second coming as a potential donor - so the obvious candidate was the still current Oilhead Boxer twin. That brings us to where we're at - but along the way we had several car customers who saw the prototype trike in the workshops when they came to view / order cars. Liked what they saw and said "can you make one for me" - This was before the trialling was even complete !

We had to make chassis jigs and moulds and that seemed like a waste of time to build just 2 !

My pal is 15 years my junior - so still has plenty of get up and go for commercial undertakings.

Although the initial trike was conceived as a selfish whim, we've looked seriously at the possibilities - even to the point of future development of a 2 seater Touring version.

As Adrian says - if we're barking mad and nobody wants one - at least WE have a trike each !

In all these current sagas - I use the Royal "we" as I am officially retired and it's Adrian's business, but can't stop the will to play and be involved - problem is after 40 years of friendship - he encourages me! :

....and this is why the Scorpio isn't finished [ for the show ]

This is now the second "flash" body ready to be surfaced and painted - and hopefully this time we CAN take a set of production moulds off !

BTW - the front mudguards are for road trials only [ off a trailer ! ] AND we are using car type tyres.

So, why the feet first design?

Garage Rat said:

So, why the feet first design?

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It's a classic case of form following function.

My original BMW K100 design [ 7 years ago ] called for a kneeler position - like a racing sidecar. This proved to impractical, as it put even more load on my dodgy knee ! Also, I decided maybe it would be very alien to "bike " riders.

Initially I had a very low seated position - as in normal bike - but that put the COG way too far back and also too high. We tried two prototypes with this layout [ similar to Can Am Spyder ] and it proved .............dangerous! Didn't matter what circuit racing experience we threw at it we could never get the handling to be predictable. Hitting a road crown camber would throw the outfit into a lurch oversteer into oncoming traffic - seriously scarey stuff.

Once I applied the Riley and Foale findings and went back to a blank sheet of paper the ONLY sensible answer was to get the rider / driver as far forward as possible - and as low as possible. That dictated the riding position.
Actually it's more recumbant than feet forward - your whole body / hip / leg frame is supported by a contoured seat come bodywork and the "tank" is actually there [ apart from styling ! ] to give your knees something to grip. The seat is not present in the pix, but flows around the ass and up to the small of the back.
The Tourer version is even more of a problem, due to the additional passenger weight behind the COG.
The Tourer version is way off next year, but I've already come up with a more enclosed bodywork which incorporates luggage facilities.

Why didn't I just stick to Cafe Racers eh ???????

Thanks, I dont ask to stur the pot but to learn more, thanks.

And you do this because "How hard could it be?"

Garage Rat said:

Thanks, I dont ask to stur the pot but to learn more, thanks.

And you do this because "How hard could it be?"

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Hey Rat,
responded to in the understanding that you were asking genuine questions ............

It really has been an elightening journey. I spent my early working days designing and drawing major fabrications in alumimium. Boring ...then a spell at Ford's Advance Vehicle Operations [ AVO ] where we worked on the design of race and rally suspension and chassis'.

Then it was .......phuk this, I could do this for myself ! That's where the next 45 years went then !!

I was pretty certain I had a good handle on engineering and especially chassis / suspension design, but this Trike project has proved one thing to me - I'm STILL learning !

A bike we saw at Barber's this weekend. It was definitely different.

We seriously looked into leaning Trikes but ...........

Would have kind of defeated the point of having a trike for your knees,eh?

Fix said:

Would have kind of defeated the point of having a trike for your knees,eh?

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You got it in one Fix !!! Selfish bastard that I am.

awesome!!! following this! we must have talked for 5 hours the other night in the shop about a trike/street legal quad project... hahaha wait till you see the golf cart we are building... have to stretch it 2 feet to fit the 18in wheels! hahahah gangster! can not have my dad rolling around at his lake house in a stock golf cart now can i! hahaha dude TJ this is going to be wicked man!!! following this for sure

Using an old AMF Harley cart?

JRK5892 said:

awesome!!! following this! we must have talked for 5 hours the other night in the shop about a trike/street legal quad project... hahaha wait till you see the golf cart we are building... have to stretch it 2 feet to fit the 18in wheels! hahahah gangster! can not have my dad rolling around at his lake house in a stock golf cart now can i! hahaha dude TJ this is going to be wicked man!!! following this for sure

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Joe,
that's how all the best projects come about - after shootin' the breeze with a bunch of mates [ in my case - down the pub ! ].

Looks like we might have the makings of a new thread here - Trikes / oddballs ? Or should that be Oddball Trikes ! I certainly have NO interest in the Trad layout Trike, and there's nothing really new you can do with that concept anyway.

Talking of which [ alcohol fueled projects ] after one such session [ Friday pm ritual ] with the guys that worked for me in my replica car manufacturing days - we decided that we needed a large capacity luxury car style pick up to complement our 7 ton truck.

As we drove back from the pub in Mrs. B's Citroen CX estate - we discussed HOW easy it would be to naff the roof off and make a luxury - and fast pick up.

That evening [ 9.0pm] when I got back home Mrs B said she wanted to go shopping - imagine her surprise when she got outside to find her Estate had morphed into a pick up !!!!

Yea .......had to buy her another, but it WAS worth seeing the look on her face.

Soooooooo - we missed the show deadline thanx to a pair of idiot fibreglass guys.

Good news is that during the breather that allowed, we fine tuned the body shape and finalised the surfacing to our satisfaction.

The body has now been painted and the King moulds are being taken as we speak - oh yea - AC is overseeing the process himself!

Hopefully we'll have two production mules running around in the Spring putting plenty of test miles on them.

While all this productionising is going on, I can get back to the TR1 Cafe Racers !!

AC?