Yes, another effing battery topic...

OK... so I need a battery for my 1977 Honda CJ360.

I tried to replace the original battery with a capacitor and the bike doesn't like it. I'm assuming the problem is my charging system just not being up to the task as I have already gone with solid state replacements for both regulator and rectifier. Additionally, I've put my headlight onto a switch so that I can run without it and I've also replaced every single other light on the bike with LEDs. Still no joy.

My bike runs a lot better (I still have some carb issues, but I digress...) with the old battery connected via jumper cables and so I'm now in the market for a smaller-and-lighter-than stock battery. I've been told that 7.5 A/h is probably the minimum I should go and also to avoid lithium ion on my older bike as the charging cycles tend to be different and new batteries don't like big swings in charge/discharge.

With those things in mind, I've found this baby on Amazon for $25 (give or take): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002MVH7EC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=A24WV2YRRJEBAG

It's a sealed 12 V 7.5A/h battery. It uses F1 faston connectors (which I assume are the spade style?).

Any opinions on it?

Looks like I may end up being the guinea pig, eh?

Well, there are a few other guys on here running similar stuff. That is also the same battery that is in thousands of battery backups, kinda like I mentioned before. I have actually wanted to try one on my bike just for fun since I have about a dozen laying around. Most of them don't hold a charge but hey would be fun to mess with.

Yes they are spade connectors, and you can buy them just about any where that specializes in batteries, although that is a decent price, depending on shipping. I get mine at Batteries Plus, donno if you have them up there but they have every kind of battery you could need.

I ran a ballistic parts 4 cell battery on my 360 it worked great but after a few months the battery was shot. I bought a 5ah seeled battery from the honda shop for 2 bucks (well I spent 2 on a scratch off and won 50!) my bike runs a loooooooot better!

Only just found this thread.
That's just about the exact same 7.5A/hr battery I'm using
I fitted one to Brendon's bike while he was on honeymoon last December
Your a bit late to be a guinea pig, he's done a couple of thousand miles with one ;D
I'm going to get next one online though, $28.00 local for this battery (the EXACT one I'm using)
I did have a couple of old ones given to me (dated 2005 removed from smoke detector/emergency lighting unit) 8)
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Patrol-SLA1075-compatible-replacement/dp/B004KO2W1C/ref=sr_1_1?m=A24WV2YRRJEBAG&ie=UTF8&qid=1320116166&sr=1-1

That's almost the exact battery I was talking about, hell they are the same damn thing that is in my kids scooters.

Hmmmm, there's a thought........

It's an AGM type, (not gel,) so it should work fine. Only thing about AGM that you need to be careful of is that they don't like
being charged at voltage above 14.3 V (Some sources say 14.2 V.)

You can buy those spade terminals at any auto supply store. Best to solder them after crimping them.

Your wrong about the charge rate for AGM, they can charge to about 17volts and higher amperage than 'wet' cell batteries, need to check supplied literature or, printing on battery for charge rate. (usually around double amp rate @ 14.5V)
There are usually two different charge rates, slow and quick charge, quick charge is preferred method
It severely lowers service life charging at high voltage/low amps though
If you check a new one, you'll find its around 20~23v until you 'load' it. (I measure stuff and was REALLY surprised )
Gel cells don't like higher voltage, they can't shed heat and can explode

No, PJ, I don't know where you get that info. My info comes straight from Deka's technical data on their AGM batteries. Any voltage over 14.3 on an AGM battery will kill it in quite a short time. It boils them dry. They have very little electrolyte, so overcharging makes them vent and lose water.

I was a Deka dealer for three years, selling about 50 batteries per year. Motorcycle charging systems is an area where I have considerable expertise.

Yes, AGM batteries can tolerate a pretty high charging rate, and discharging rate. Charging rate is CURRENT, not voltage.

If I check a new one? I have checked the voltage on over 100 new ones. Every battery that came in, I checked its state of charge before giving it a refresh on a float charger. Never have I seen higher than about 13.8V on a battery that is fully charged.

Study the attached document. Tech data straight from Deka.

Thanks for the tech sheets, I'll check it out.
I have measured around 23 volts on several of the factory charged batteries, never over 13.8V on batteries I've had to fill and charge

Sonrier,
You don't have to avoid the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. I ran the improved Shorai in Kool-Aid all summer, the no problems whatever. The only thing you will want to do is make sure that your charging sytem is not overcharging...which sounds like is not the problem. You might even be adding some loads back on after that. There is no battery lighter and easier to mount in than one of these. Shorai had a few stunbling blocks early on, but now they have got it dialed...can't argue with the performance for the weight, I highly recommend. I am running one of the small case batteries in the VTR, and it weighs just over 1 lb.

Do, however, avoid straight lithium batteries...they are somewhat expolosion prone. The Shorai's are Lithium Iron Phosphate, and are much more stable. Here are some links to by journeys with these batteries, and the findings and results:

http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=23613.0

http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=26076.0

I have since rode the bike over 300 miles with this battery with not so much as one no-start or concern. Since the improvements, it runs cool, and starts my 1000 twin like nothing!

<<You might even be adding some loads back on after that.>>

I'll take exception to that statement.
While a higher capacity battery can give you more capacity reserve, it does not increase the amount of power output by the stator. Stator output is THE determining factor in what loads you can put on the electrical system.

Stator output is also determined by RPM. Output that may be adequate for the load at 5,000 RPM sustained engine speed might become woefully deficient in tooling around local roads with lights, stop signs, and traffic.

As someone who likes to do things like dual headlights and heated riding gear, I can attest to the power capacity differences with different riding conditions, and the impact of too much power draw.

You are right Alpha, but that was not why I was saying that you might be increasing loads on the charging system/ battery. You might read the two previously attached links to my earlier posts for the complete story, but here is a short synopsis:

On some bikes with non adjustable voltage regulators (solid state thyristor style) used well past year 2000 actually short a leg of the stator to ground to regulate charging rate, rather than tunring off field power as in a conventional alternator. Naturally, this shorted leg creates a good deal of heat, and this is why the regulartors are finned--to dissipate this heat. The key is that most bikes do not regulate voltage like a car alternator does, but rather more like a lawn mower--crude and ineffecient at best, but light and simple.

When you remove all the loads from the charging system, the regulator has to short one or maybe even two legs directly to ground to reduce charge rate to match the reduced load and keep from overcharging the battery. This translates into even more heat at the regulator. THe thyristor type regulartors cannot do the switching to ground and off again efficiently enough to handle this kind of reduced charge rate for an extended period of time. What then happens is they either burn out and the regulator quits, or they burn closed, and the charging system goes to full field. This would boil a lead acid battery, or in the case of my first Shorai, actually set it on fire due to the maxed out charge rate. As you stated this is increased by running the engine at road speeds--higher RPM.

The Mosfet style regulators (like the ones used in the R6 and R1 bikes) use FET transistors to switch this action, and while they still build heat, it is in nowhere near the amount of the Thyristor style regulator, and they are much longer lived.

In the case of my VTR, when I stripped it clean, and went to full LEDs and Shorai battery, the stock thyristor regulator burned out trying to reduce stator output to a battery that charges to full quickly, and failed closed. The resulting overcharge caused the battery concerns. I since changed to a MOSFET style regulator, mounted in the air stream, and added a few variable loads to keep the regulator cool, and I have not had any problems since.

So what you need to be careful of (and this would even apply to lead acid batteries as well) is to account for load removal with thyristor style regulators (as was even on my 1980 Yamaha) to ensure that the regulator is not overloaded by a fixed rate stator. This load would optimally be kept close to stock load draw. You are correct in being careful not to add too much additional load after the stock load is met.

Hopefully that clarifies things. The first link I posted above details the entire concept more fully, and is a pretty good read...if I say so myself! ;D

I understood you perfectly, but only because I knew what you were talking about. <G>

A lot of older regulators are what I call shunt regulators. (You called them thyristor type.) They funnel off excess power to ground to prevent overcharging. They were harder on stators, because the stator spent a lot of time producing maximum current, therefore heat.

Modern regulators are what I call series regulators. (Your term is MOSFET.) They regulate the voltage going to the battery by increasing the resistance in the charging circuit. Stators can be producing some pretty high voltages at high RPM, but run cooler because they only have to put out whatever current the battery and load requires. Current through the windings is what generates heat. Less current, less heat. (Also less parasitic load on the engine.)

It's my assumption, (and perhaps a faulty assumption,) is that when I buy aftermarket regulators for older bikes, I am buying a series or MOSFET type regulator.

I know Harley used to have the shunt type, but aftermarket regulators were series type. Eventually, Harley OEM regulators became series type as well.

Cool, a discussion on charging systems.
I have nothing much to add at present except automotive use 'excited field' alternators (electromagnetic) and, as far as I know, all modern bikes are using permanent magnet alternators
It's much easier to regulate field strength by DC supply voltage switching than switching AC current output 'legs'
Personally, I prefer the Honda CB500.550.650.750.900/etc system as with a modern solid state rect/reg they are more efficient (but heavier and more expensive to make)

<<as far as I know, all modern bikes are using permanent magnet alternators >>

I think Goldwings might be using automotive type excited field alternators.

Motorcycles need they charging system to be simple and compact. Permanent magnet alternators do a pretty good job of packing the power into a small package. Unfortunately, at some cost with regard to reliability.

I forgot about 'Wings', haven't worked on a 'new' one since around 1995 (been almost exclusively Suzuki and they discontinued EMS systems in 2007on the Bandit/Katana)

A very useful and timely thread. I am planning on using a Shorai battery with my current build and the information contained here and in t71ford's links has been very helpful.
I will definitely be checking the regulator set-up!

Crazy

I think most of the Honda CB style regulators are adjustable, at least on the older ones. Ringo's bike is at least. That makes them perfectly suited for running the Shorai battery, too.

I kind of wish that these reuglators would work by varying field voltage too, since it is truly the most efficient. But as Alpha said, there is size, weight, and expense to consider.

Mosfet and Thyristor type regulators actually work the same, though, and are used almost universally on motorcycles still. They both shunt to ground, rather than create line resistance. The old style uses thyristor diodes to do the switching to ground, while the MOSFET style uses FET transistors. The difference is that the transistors are faster and more precise. Otherwise they are functionally the same. If the load is fairly well balanced to the charging system, the regulator will run cool, but if not, and it is less, both types will get hot shunting the excess current to ground. The FET transistors simply work more efficiently.

Unfortunatly, new replacement equipment regulators are not necessarily MOSFET style, though they could be. MAny of the current production bikes are equipped with them, the R1 and R6 for example. You have to research each one out before you buy it, to be sure though, since there is not standard. I think most of the current new bike production ones are MOSFET style. Replacements for old bikes are most likely thyristors. Fortunately, though, they are direct replacements for each other!

As far as fixed magnet stators, they are always variable current and voltage. But the variable on the stator alone is rotor speed only. Output voltage is a function of output current, and is controlled only by either the throttle, (before the regulator) or by the regulator. The stator itself will produce max current for its given RPM all the time. Speed will affect this, or regulating the stator output. At a constant engine RPM, current-in to the regulator will remain unchanged, as the stator is fixed. current-out from the regulator is governed by shunting any excess to ground. That is the singular reason for taking care in the load sensed by the regulator. seen as battery voltage.

Hopefully that sheds a little more light on the situation

The old style mechanical regulators only cycle about 60Hz.
Voltage spikes will be well above the average set voltage
Have you put a P. V. A. on output lead to battery?
I prefer modern solid state as they 'cycle' at thousands of times a second so volt average is closer to what is going into battery
It's part of the reason several motorcycle manufacturers used 3 phase center tap EMS alternators, (Suzuki
BMW, Yamaha)
I think Honda and Kawasaki also used them but haven't worked on them