DO THE TON

Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Projects => Cafe Racers => Topic started by: joeyputt on Jul 14, 2011, 21:55:23

Title: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine Built By DWMS Racing!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 14, 2011, 21:55:23
I have been provided the great honor and priviledge of working with Brother Habanero52 to build the engine for his CB450 "La Pastinaca"!
 
We will be completely disassembling this engine and building it from the bare cases with a lot of photos so for all of you who share the love affair with the CB450, or high performance engines in general, you will not want to miss this thread!
 
Here are a couple photos of the engine as I received it from Brother Habanero52.
 
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0001.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0002.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: Swagger on Jul 14, 2011, 22:03:01
I'm working on one myself, will be interesting to compare the two!
Can't wait to see what madness you come up with Joey!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 14, 2011, 22:22:13
Brother Swagger I can not wait to see yours! This is the kind of build that I always look forward to doing as Brother Habanero52 is really great to work with and is providing a wonderful list of parts!

I started disassembling the engine for cleaning and inspection while some of the parts were on the way.

I removed the cylinder head, cylinders, side covers, etc.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0010.jpg)
 
I disassembled the cylinder head and started cleaning it in preparation for all of the machine work. Notice the CB450 has an aluminum head with steel semi hemispherical combustion chambers.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0002_00.jpg)
 
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0016.jpg)
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: Swagger on Jul 14, 2011, 23:37:24
If it looks like any of your others it'll be stunning!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 15, 2011, 00:12:31
Thank you for the compliment Brother Swagger it means more to me than you realize, your work is very nice as well!

I split the cases yesterday.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003.jpg)

Today some of the parts came in including a close ratio 5th gear!
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0009.jpg)

Before I fully disassembled the bottom end I wanted to test fit the close ratio fifth gear so I removed the main and counter transmission shafts and gears.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_00.jpg)

This photo shows the mainshaft with the stock 5th gear.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0005_01.jpg)

The mainshaft with the stock 32 tooth 5th gear removed.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0007_01.jpg)

Here is the mainshaft with the 31 tooth close ratio 5th gear installed, and the stock gear in the bottom of the photo.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0011_00.jpg)

I installed the mainshaft, countershaft, and gears back into the case to check the fitment of the close ratio 5th gear, it went togethor beautifully so now I can completely disassemble the cases for cleaning.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0012.jpg)

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: teazer on Jul 15, 2011, 03:41:29
Joey,

Is that a new 31T and does it come with a matching gear for the other shaft or does it just have more backlash?  That gear looks brand new - is it?

NOVA in the UK list top gear as 25-23 and first as 16-30 so something must have changed over the years. 
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 15, 2011, 10:16:09
The honor is all mine! I am delighted with the way you are handling the project and the communication between us.
I know that this will be an enviable engine once you have completed it.
Thank you for everything.
 :D ;D

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 15, 2011, 13:46:11
Teazer, that is a spanking brand new gear! It did not come with a matching gear, for it is not available any more.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: VonYinzer on Jul 15, 2011, 16:27:22
Right on Joe! This will be a jewel for sure.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 15, 2011, 16:29:57
Brother Teazer as Brother Habanero52 already mentioned it is a new gear, the stock gear in this engine was a 32 tooth and the new gear is a 31 tooth. Both gears can be seen from the side in the photos above as well for a tooth count.

The backlash specs that I have for the CB450 show the servicable limits as 0.0037-0.0074 in. or 0.094-0.188mm for 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears. The new gear falls within this range, I will put gauges on it and get the exact number if you are interested.

The gear appears to have been designed and cut with the correct amount of backlash to be run as a drop in replacement for use with the stock countershaft gear, it definately has a very nice fit!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 15, 2011, 16:33:25
Right on Joe! This will be a jewel for sure.

Brother it is definately going to be pretty but a lot of the jewels will be on the inside! Yesterday I received two big boxes of parts that Brother Habanero52 sent and was like a child at christmas going through them all! Hahahaha! You would think after all of these years I would be tired of looking at shiny new parts but for me it never gets old!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: teazer on Jul 15, 2011, 16:44:31
New gears are always a nice thing and if the lash is in spec and tooth engagement is deep enough you should be good to go. We do something similar on GT570 using GS gears and it's an old trick on Honda 305s to use a Dream top gear with one less tooth.

Is that a closer top gear or higher first gear? According to NOVA it's bottom gear that uses 30T ( different again). 

Do you have all the tooth pairs and I can compare them to what NOVA has. It is possible that different years used different gear ratios or maybe General Export Vs UK or something.

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 15, 2011, 17:01:51
Brother it is a K5 engine and 5th gear on the main shaft. I am removing the crankshaft and transmission now, I have a computer next to my work table, for final inspection and cleaning and can post all of the gear counts for you.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: teazer on Jul 15, 2011, 17:25:10
Joe,
That's really interesting.  I went on line and trolled through parts list and found most of the gears and 32T is listed as top gear mainshaft as you said. All the gear pairs I could match were around 58/59 teeth but NOVA lists them as 45/46/48 which is very different.  CB350 and 360 and race kit trans are in the 55-58 tooth range. I wonder what NOVA used as their starting point? In fact the gears that NOVA list re very close ratio.  I wonder if that was a race kit trans they were measuring.  I have no data on those.   

If you get a chance to count teeth sometime, I'd appreciate it. From the parts list it looks like 41- (18), 22-(37), 26-33, 29-29,32-27.  The numbers in brackets were guesses based on tooth counts in the other pairs. They are probably fixed.

 
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 15, 2011, 18:10:34
Sure that is no problem at all Brother, I just got the crankshaft and transmission out and am working on cleaning the cases and I am going to record the transmission numbers for Brother Habanero52's build sheet so I can post them here for you as well this afternoon.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 16, 2011, 02:31:46
Here is a photo of the top case half after I removed the crankshaft, main shaft, countershaft, gears, etc. and started cleaning it.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0020.jpg)

Here are the transmission numbers -
17-41, 22-36, 26-33, 29-29, 32-27 (31-27 for this engine with the close ratio gear)

So the ratios would be -
1st - 2.41:1
2nd - 1.64:1
3rd - 1.27:1
4th - 1.00:1
5th - 0.844:1
(5th in this engine with the close ratio gear will be 0.871:1)

Brother Teazer I have found the same information with the NOVA standard values being 16-30, 19-27, 21-24, 23-23, 25-23 which as you said run anywhere from 45-48 paired compared to the stock gearing of 58-59 paired. I also wonder if NOVA's standard value measurements are from their old race kit trans which I also do not have the specs for, I know that they are no longer offering the five speed but do have a six speed available. The last time I looked Team Hansen had the last available NOVA 5 speeds but they do not list the ratios for it.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 17, 2011, 13:13:47
I know a lot of you are interested to know what all is going into Brother Habanero52's engine so here is the parts list and a few photos! I will show each part in more detailed photos as I install them but this will give you all a better idea of what we will be doing.

Parts list -
Complete Athena gasket set
Solid copper head gasket
Mikuni VM32 carburetors
Kibblewhite black diamond intake valves
Kibblewhite black diamond exhaust valves
Kibblewhite bronze intake guides
Kibblewhite bronze exhaust guides
Kibblewhite H.T. steel lash caps
Kibblewhite racing valve spring conversion kit with titanium retainers
The camshafts and rockers have been shipped to Megacycle for regrinding
Tsubaki cam chain
THR 74mm racing pistons
Barnett clutch friction plates and new springs
Electronic ignition
Close ratio 5th gear
New starter chain
Rebuilt starter
Rebuilt stator
Stainless steel engine bolt set
Chrome valve cover bolt set
16 tooth front sprocket
New left cylinder head cover/cam bearing
New right cylinder head cover/cam bearing
New base point cover/cam bearing
New tach gear cover/cam bearing
New rear cam chain guide
New roller cam chain guide
New front roller cam chain guide
New cam chain tensioner
Jet kit

For the cosmetic finish Brother Habanero has decided on a satin black for the engine cases, cylinders, cylinder head, and stator nose cover with polished aluminum clutch, stator, sprocket, oil filter, and all of the cam covers. We will also be polishing the cylinder heads fin edges and the Honda lettering on the stator nose cover as well!

Here is a photo of the new Mikuni VM32 carburetors and K&N air filters!
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0010_00-1.jpg)

This photo shows the beautiful THR 74mm racing pistons!
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0006.jpg)

There are still a few parts on the way but here is a photo of what has arrived already!
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0023.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: VonYinzer on Jul 17, 2011, 20:40:08
Puuuurrrdy!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 17, 2011, 21:45:55
That's a giant pile of the good stuff....
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 17, 2011, 23:48:42
Puuuurrrdy!

That's a giant pile of the good stuff....

Brother Habanero52 definately supplied a lot of beautiful parts to work with!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 17, 2011, 23:59:10
I spent a few hours today working on the lower case half, I still have some more work to do but here is how it looks so far.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0024.jpg)


Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: bluesmoke69 on Jul 18, 2011, 00:09:03
Looks great can't wait to see motor finished.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: kelvis on Jul 18, 2011, 01:04:58
I am really interested to see how this build pans out....I haven't seen a 'motor only' build before!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: teazer on Jul 18, 2011, 02:22:32
I budget one complete day for cleaning crankcases. Sometimes you get lucky, but it takes time toi get them clean and then clean out all the threads and countersunk them all, helicoil any that need it, check all the faces to get them dead flat and then clean them again to remove oil from fingers.

It takes time to get motors right, and that investment pays off.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 18, 2011, 10:09:23
Mr. Swagger, thanks for your comments, much appreciated.
Joey, this is looking better every day!!! I am very grateful for your dedication!
Mr. Teazer, you are right on sir! The only way to do an engine is to do it the right way, taking whatever time is needed  and paying attention to every detail like Joey is doing and I am sure you also do. As you can see, the new components are the best available and affordable to me, and the only way to make them all "hum" in harmony, is to have top notch craftsmen like Joey and yourself bringing them all together with American pride!!!
Thanks you all of you gentlemen for all of your comments!!!!! ;) ;D

Speed cost.......how fast do you want to spend?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 Parts List And Photos Added!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 20, 2011, 00:07:58
I agree that prepation is key and never base what needs to be done on how long it will take and love to give each part the necessary time that it deserves. It is easy for me to spend anywhere from a couple of days to over a week just on the cases depending on what I am doing with them. I have spent close to forty hours working on a single part to prepare it for show quality polishing! Building quality equipment does takes a lot of time, patience, and dedication but in the end the rewarding feeling of seeing what you have created with your own hands is always worth it for me.

I also clean the cases by hand without chemicals so it takes me a little extra time but I enjoy it. Here are a couple photos of the two case halves sitting on my engine building stand.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0020_00.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_01-1.jpg)

The satin black engine coating came in today and I still have a couple hours of sanding, smoothing, and cleaning left to do before they are ready to coat but here is a photo that shows how the front of the cases look so far.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0005_02.jpg)

Thank you all for taking the time to read and support this thread!

Brother Habanero52 it truly is an honor to work with you, thank you again for putting your trust in me!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases on the engine stand.
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 20, 2011, 22:00:51
I painted the cases satin black today.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0002_01.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0004_01.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0006_00.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0007_02.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0008_00.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0010_01.jpg)



Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Painted the cases!
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 21, 2011, 11:02:58
Sweet!!!!! ;D

"Speed cost......How fast do you want to go?"
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Painted the cases!
Post by: lingo on Jul 21, 2011, 11:24:55
Damn that is going to be sexy.
Title: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Painted the cases!
Post by: Flugtechnik on Jul 21, 2011, 11:53:39
This is going to look nice. I have a very similar scheme on mine. The silver bit are actually brushed with a clear on them.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sHB1iTy4rdo/TcFT0rhze-I/AAAAAAAAA18/R0DzlhOI_AI/s1600/engine_1.JPG)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Painted the cases!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 21, 2011, 13:37:38
Say Flugtechnik...that's pretty....but all you black engine guys....knock it off! hehe
Aw well, we'll be the black engine posse.....(perhaps with a less dumb name)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Painted the cases!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 22, 2011, 19:58:14
Say Flugtechnik...that's pretty....but all you black engine guys....knock it off! hehe
Aw well, we'll be the black engine posse.....(perhaps with a less dumb name)

No fair, my CB450's engine is gold! I want to ride with the cool kids too! Hahahaha! I know...we are not kids, but we are young at heart and that counts right? Hahahaha! Seriously though there are a lot of beautiful black engines around here lately!

Oh well, back to work! Brother Habanero52 ordered new shift forks for the transmission and it will be a few days before they arrive and I can assemble the bottom end so I am working on sanding the engine covers to prepare them for polishing and the cylinder head.

We are converting the valvetrain from the stock factory valves to lightweight racing valves with 5mm stems. Naturally with the stem size change we had to convert the valve guides as well. We got all four valve guides installed in the cylinder head and reamed so here are some photos!

This photo shows the new 5mm valve guides installed in the cylinder head on the intake side.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0022_00.jpg)

Here is a photo of the new valve seals installed.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0031.jpg)

In this photo you can see the difference between the stock intake valve on the left and the new 5mm lightweight racing intake valve on the right! The new valve stems themselves are shorter as well for use with lash caps.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0019.jpg)

I still need to cut the valve seats and am waiting for a pilot in the new guides size before I can do it. I also want to smooth the combustion chambers a little more but here is a photo of what the valves look like in the chamber.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0008_01.jpg)








Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 22, 2011, 20:14:22
Apparently there's some *measurable* power to be had in cutting and blending the ridge between the valves down, especially near the plug. I've seen two dyno sheets that showed around a pony from doing so. Now....I've not seen them in real life nor did I know the guys that built the engine. Just thought I'd toss it out there since you're turning this one up to 11......
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Rip-It-Up on Jul 23, 2011, 21:05:29
Nice, I haven't looked alot into internal mod's for these motors. Do you have any links or resources you would mind sharing for parts and stuff?
 
BTW looks like there's a ton of room for unshrouding to be had there. My hand is twitching for a die grinder just looking at those pics! lol! I reaaalllyyy want to play with one of these bikes.
 
Out of curiosity do you have any more pic's of the port's? Did honda leave alot of flashing in there? Haha, sorry for so many questions. I haven't seen any posts with anyone doing much more than a rebuild on one of these. I'm very interested to see what one of these old twins could pick up with some of todays cylinder head knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've heard that they where pretty under rated at 43hp back in the day.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 25, 2011, 17:49:52
Brother Swagger combustion chamber and port shapes would be a long discussion and would deserve their own threads I am sure as I know there are a lot of different opinions on the subjects here on dotheton as we have attempted to try and discuss them a couple of times! Hahahaha!

Brother Rip-It-Up I sent you a PM. We have to help you find a CB450 to play with, you would love it! This is an older article that you may enjoy, it is a short read and has some good information- http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/modifications-to-the-henning-honda-cb500-14679.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/modifications-to-the-henning-honda-cb500-14679.html)

Brother Habanero52 ordered new shift forks for the transmission and they got here today so I can start assembling the bottom end!

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0001_02.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 25, 2011, 18:06:00
true enough, I'll look forward to you pics.....
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: teazer on Jul 25, 2011, 18:10:10
You might be surprised how much shrouding those heads need to improve trapping efficiency. I'd just round off the sharp edges and leave it at that.  You don't want too much overlap flow into the exhaust port.

Most older Hondas suffer from constipation.  They have enough intake flow but can't get rid of exhaust gasses effectively.  Squish (quench) was typically too deep to be effective too.  Lots of ways to improve them.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 25, 2011, 19:09:43
true enough, I'll look forward to you pics.....

It is not like that Brother! You know I always value your information and enjoy talking with you, I just do not want to get into a large debate (not with you, I know we agree a lot!) over combustion chamber designs and port shapes here as it is Brother Habanero52's build thread. We can start a new thread if everyone would like to try and discuss these issues though and I will join in.

You might be surprised how much shrouding those heads need to improve trapping efficiency. I'd just round off the sharp edges and leave it at that.  You don't want too much overlap flow into the exhaust port.

Brother Teazer that is the plan, as this engine is not going to be on the track I just want to smooth the chambers and ports real nice and I may cc match the chambers after I cut the seats.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: lingo on Jul 25, 2011, 23:17:23
I would really enjoy a discussion of the modifications that can be done to the 450 head to make it breath better. I come from the hot rod world but head work is something that I have never learned. I wouldn't necessarily do it myself but I would like to learn about it.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Rip-It-Up on Jul 26, 2011, 12:05:08
Teazer I get what your saying about leaving the valve shrouded to help prevent cross flow during the overlap. However if you where to do serious work to a 450, and I understand he's not taking this one that far, You would want to fix the poor scavenging correctly. It does appear to be, although hard to tell from the pic's, alot of unshrouding around the cylinder sides of the valve that could easily be cut back.
 
I seems to me that the "linear" torsion bar springs are the problem here. I would imagine there would be a bit to be gained by both the 5mm valves and by retrofiting the motor with progressive springs "beehives" would be ideal allowing a custom grind cam with better ramp geometry.
 
Thanks for the article Joey, It does help shed some light to the weak points in the design.
 
Lingo, there's alot of good articles floating around on the web about head porting that would give you some good insight. Without a flow bench and ton's of experience I wouldn't do much more than deflashing and smoothing the ports, smoothing the chamber to eliminate hot spots, and a good valve job. The biggest mistake most people make is taking out too much metal destroying the flow velocity.
 
I think a good discussion on cam geometry and port work would be beneficial to all if someone wants to start a new thread. I think we have jacked Joey's enough. lol
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 26, 2011, 13:41:11
Brothers it has already started so go ahead and have the discussion here if you like, I felt it coming! Hahahaha! I have just seen a lot of technical discussions turn into differing opinions and ending with hurt feelings and I did not want that for Brother Habanero52's thread but I am sure everything will stay cool here!

Brother Rip-It-Up this engine is getting custom reground cams and the racing coil spring conversion with titanium retainers so there will be no torsion bar system. The parts have been ordered and should be here soon! I will post photos of the conversion as I install it.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 26, 2011, 14:23:51
It's funny, I prefer the idea of coil springs....I really do. But Honda raced lots of bikes with torsion bars and I've found no account other than those of guys trying to sell.....coil spring conversions.....that say they are needed. Not trying insinuate anything about anyone selling them, just what I've heard. Torsion bars hold our cars up too.
Now, would 35-40 year old torsion bars merit replacement, you betcha but I'd run fresh torsion bars with a fairly stout cam and feel pretty good about it.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 26, 2011, 14:58:23
Brother Swagger I like the torsion bar system as well, if for no other reason than its uniqueness and a lot of guys cut a tooth off of the bar to give them more torsion for high rpm engines and they work fine however they will not work with the stem on these particular 5mm valves so to use these valves you have to use the spring conversion kit with them.

The spring conversion is also not quite as easy as most would think, there is a certain amount of valve stem heighth that is required to prevent spring bind and attain proper spring pressure.

Take a look at the valve comparison photo on page four of this thread and you can see the difference in the valves, I guess if you really wanted to you could machine a custom retainer for use with these valves to retain the torsion bar system but the valve is also shorter for use with lash caps so you would probably run into clearance issues with them as well.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 26, 2011, 16:15:38
Aw yes, those Kibblewhite valves......gooood stuff that. They're taller too aren't they?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 26, 2011, 16:38:29
Mr. Swagger, would you mind expanding, for may edification, on the Kibblewhite Valves comment?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: teazer on Jul 26, 2011, 17:19:23
Teazer I get what your saying about leaving the valve shrouded to help prevent cross flow during the overlap. However if you where to do serious work to a 450, and I understand he's not taking this one that far, You would want to fix the poor scavenging correctly. It does appear to be, although hard to tell from the pic's, alot of unshrouding around the cylinder sides of the valve that could easily be cut back.
 
I seems to me that the "linear" torsion bar springs are the problem here. I would imagine there would be a bit to be gained by both the 5mm valves and by retrofiting the motor with progressive springs "beehives" would be ideal allowing a custom grind cam with better ramp geometry.
 
Thanks for the article Joey, It does help shed some light to the weak points in the design.
 
Lingo, there's alot of good articles floating around on the web about head porting that would give you some good insight. Without a flow bench and ton's of experience I wouldn't do much more than deflashing and smoothing the ports, smoothing the chamber to eliminate hot spots, and a good valve job. The biggest mistake most people make is taking out too much metal destroying the flow velocity.
 
I think a good discussion on cam geometry and port work would be beneficial to all if someone wants to start a new thread. I think we have jacked Joey's enough. lol

Shrouding on this type of head is not necessarily what you think it is and unshrouding does not necessarily create the flow improvement you might have expected. The flow problems come from two places, general shape of the port and the small short turn radius. David Vizard and AG Bell among others have written books and articles on the subject of port shapes.

If you read the article on what Kenny Augustine did with Todd Henning's head you would have seen the raised floor in the exhausts. That improves flow and also provides anti-reversion which prevents exhaust reverse flow along the floor of the port.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 26, 2011, 20:20:33
Also notice that Augustine and Henning chose the spring conversion as well for their Daytona winning engine.

Just so there is no confusion here, I mentioned earlier that I like the torsion bar system and I do so mostly for its uniqueness however this should not be interpreted to read that I like them better than the spring conversion as when I have a choice I will choose the spring conversion every time without question. 

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 26, 2011, 20:24:57
Joey and Mr. Habenero, don't sweat it fellas....the "Kibblewhite comment" was really just what it appears: Let's have a peek.....

Aw yes, those Kibblewhite valves
<generally implying that I'd forgotten about that part of your build>

......gooood stuff that.
<'cuz ya know....they don't suck or anything>

They're taller too aren't they?
<well.....they are....right?>

No hidden subtext, I promise. :)

As to the torsion vs. coils comment....also not meant to stir the pot.
I must be typing on the grouchy keyboard today? haha...
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 26, 2011, 21:02:15
Brother Swagger we all love you man! All is well!

I have been assembling the internals and am getting ready to put the cases back togethor so I will be back this evening and will add some new photos!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 27, 2011, 12:54:25
No problem Mr. Swagger!!!!!
I appreciate your comments and your clarifications.
I want everyone to enjoy the thread that Joey has created for this project.
I know that the project's outcome will be memorable to all. :)
 ;)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 27, 2011, 15:24:58
Yesterday I worked on getting the internals of the bottom end back togethor. I installed the new shift forks, the transmission, and the crankshaft back into the upper case and was able to seal and bolt the cases back togethor late last night.

Here is a photo of the cases back togethor.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0002_02.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 27, 2011, 16:39:59
I replaced all of the seals behind the sprocket cover including the shift drum seal, the transmission/clutch rod seal, the shifter seal, and the transmission/sprocket seal.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0007_03.jpg)

After all of the seals were in I installed this new 16 tooth sprocket.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0009_00.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 5mm racing valves conversion!
Post by: Rip-It-Up on Jul 27, 2011, 18:18:03
Shrouding on this type of head is not necessarily what you think it is and unshrouding does not necessarily create the flow improvement you might have expected. The flow problems come from two places, general shape of the port and the small short turn radius. David Vizard and AG Bell among others have written books and articles on the subject of port shapes.

If you read the article on what Kenny Augustine did with Todd Henning's head you would have seen the raised floor in the exhausts. That improves flow and also provides anti-reversion which prevents exhaust reverse flow along the floor of the port.

I never claimed that unshrouding would unlock magical heaps of plentiful HP. Simply that it's and easy way to pick up a little. And yes I did pick up where he raised the ports in the heads thereby improving the short side radius. Pretty textbook stuff and that is where you get the greatest benefit and also where most people screw the pooch.
Now raising the ports takes alot of work and as mentioned changes the exhaust port and intake port position requiring modifications not only to the port but the exhaust pipes and intake manifold.
 
For those not in the know, the most efficent path is in a straight line and by raising the ports you take the bend out of the L giving a more direct path to the valve.
 
Most people think a 305 chevy makes no power due to poor head design or black curses or something. Truth is the smaller bore has the flow coming out of the valve and directly smack into the side of the cylinder. The heads and intake actually for the displacment flowed just as well as the 350. So again saying not to unshroud a valve is like leaving a weak link in the chain.
 
Now on the subject of springs. Cam designs greatest technological leap forward here lately is primarily due to the advent of better spring technology. Comp cam's released an entire new line of cam's with faster ramps due to just the discovery of the beehive design of spring. Why? Because they remove weight from the valve tip allowing the valves to be opened and closed faster without floating, this free's small parasitic losses, and because now a lower spring rate can be used, guess what, lower spring rate also = less wear on the cam, valves, and seats. Guess what they are in every LSx based motor and part of the reason pushrod motors now make 450 tame hp instead of just 300. All top aftermarket head manufacturers now use them. Moral is theres more to it than just a piece of spring steel.
 
The 5mm valves he's installing in this motor are a huge step in the right direction due to not only a smaller stem obstructing the intake and exhaust flow in the ports. But also being lighter enabling the valve at higher RPM's to open and close faster. Now by leaving the ancient cam in the motor from the 60's you would not be taking full advantage of that benefit, It has poor valve control with slow ramps due to the limitation of the torsion bars. Now torsion bars are linear not progressive. Do a search and find out why race engines don't run linear springs... For the same reason... better valve control and faster opening and closing ramps. No engines use torsion bars and it's not because the engineers are overlooking something.
 
Do this, put your arm in front of you and move it up and down as fast as you can. Now hold a 5lb weight in your hand and do it again. Thats the best way to understand how reducing these inertia's helps in the valvetrain.
 
Cam's have to comprimise with letting the valve down gently enough not to destroy the valve and the seat yet fast enough to open and close the valve precise enough for optimal valve timing events.
 
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 28, 2011, 10:01:30
I thank you very much for your comments!!!!!
Much appreciated Glenn.

When I asked Joey to take on this project, thru ought our conversations, it was obvious to me, that he is an indisputable subject matter expert.
I have such faith in his knowledge that I have subscribed to all of his recommendations. To top it all, he is gentleman and a top notch human being!!!!!!

As I have stated, and you have reiterated, this thread if for the purpose of sharing with all this build you all and to be enjoyed by all!

I have no doubt that Joey is doing an outstanding job and I am greatful to him and all of the other that have chimed in support.

 :D ;) Thank you all!!!!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 28, 2011, 11:42:27
I know that will be the case! 8)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: Swagger on Jul 28, 2011, 12:06:55
Since my posts seemed to kick this over, I ask that we please keep it friendly here. Let me reiterate that I think this will be a helluva lump when Joey gets it buttoned up. There's obviously lots of kats here with engine building experience...perhaps we could pool our knowledge rather than just with it?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: Rip-It-Up on Jul 28, 2011, 15:58:56
Swagger,

You did not cause this response.

A buffoon did, all good!

Alright, I was going to post and appoligize if I came off the wrong way until I was called names. I re-read my own post and see where I coud have come off as being arguementative. It was never any of my intentions to start an arguement or disrespect Habenero's build thread. I offered to start a new thread out of respect. Joey welcomed the discussion or else I would have left it alone. I had the complete intention to be informative and create a good discussion as other less experienced people also read the forum. Apparently some are too sensitive and closed minded.
 
Teazer, I'm sure we could both learn from each other. I admit I'm new with bikes, And I mean you no disrespect either man. I have been building race engines albeit in car's not bikes along time and also am far from an amatuer at it.
 
To Revhead, Nobody is the end all, All knowing guru. There's always someone faster, And even the pro's learn new tricks from each other all the time. I guess it's just a crazy "theory" (In your words) of mine that reduced spring pressure, weight at the valve, and improved cam geometry is beneficial. Guess I should have included my resume before posting as you also have no clue who I am or what my experience is. Guess we will let my post count give you the assumption I was born yesterday.
 
If my FACTS where incorrect at any point then please let's have an adult discussion and show me the errors in my thinking. I am a very receptive person. I have already seen that Joey knows his stuff and at no point doubted his abilities. If you reread my post I paid him much credit to his knowledge. I would say that Habenero's build IS in very capable hands. I never once tried to discredit that or Joey... I have read several posts from Swagger and see that he also produces some awesome stuff and is an obvious asset to the forum. My intention was to shed light to the advantages that newer springs have over the torsion bars. You mentioned you didn't know why people where selling the kits.
 
Teazer, I welcome you to further digress your theory of these motors needing the valves to be shrouded to prevent crossflow. I didn't doubt your knowledge of this or the benefit of doing so. My point was that theres a cause and effect to any issue. In other words... If you blow a fuse, the fuse isn't the issue, there's a short in the wiring that needs fixed. To further digress on my part I was trying to provide info that the ramp's could be profiled faster to negate alot of overlap using beehives, 5mm valves, and titanium retainers.
 
If I'm perceived as being too much of an asshat by this point by group concensus, I will respect who was posting here first and respectfully leave...
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: teazer on Jul 28, 2011, 22:03:40
No worries rip it up.  I'm still learning.  Only 4 decades of modifying bikes and still learning something new everyday.

My comment about shrouding alludes to the fact that in a Hemi head there is zero shrouding as designed.  Pulling valves back slightly often improves flow and reduces the short circuit effect.  What looks like shrouding that needs to be dealt with, is often beneficial.  A lot of car head design issues don't translate on bike motors for many reasons. 

That's one reason why people with an auto background have a hard time making power with bike motors.  The design constraints are different and so are the solutions.

In both cases we are looking for certain things that are the same such as critical port diameters relative to other parts of the port, the relative sizes of taper, bowl and parallel sections for example.

Agree that Ti caps and light valve help to reduce stresses and allow a motor to rev higher.  Beehive springs are an interesting subject that I think the jury is still out on.  Shorter duration higher lift cams are a trick I have used for years. Matching cams to port flow is a whole other area that can be explored. Agreed.  The cause of short circuit is valve geometry basically.  That hemi head design is great in terms of having the lowest ratio of surface area to volume but wide valve angles and deep chambers lead to being able to look down the intake and right out the exhaust when the valves are out.

All engines are a compromise in design.  It's easy for example to look inside a Honda 6 and see areas that they could have improved - because technology has marched on and the pool of knowledge is deeper. 

There was great article on the web a while ago that I should have grabbed showing different Renault F1 engine power curves and compared their effect on lap times.  F 1 fuel is (or at least was) mixed specifically for a certain motor at a certain circuit and changed from one to another. Simply amazing technology. 

You don't have a Cam Doctor or swirl meter by any chance do you?  I really need to spend the big bucks (when I work out where to get them) over at Audie Technologies.

FYI I'm trying to get a test program going on LPG fueled motors to see the effects on emissions and power etc of different "clean" fuels and I really want to see what differences we can make with liquid phase versus gaseous phase direct injection. My theory is that the effect will depend upon the motor's responsiveness to the cooling effects of liquid phase injection in the same way that some motors work best with very fine fuel atomization and some respond well to larger droplets. Now I have to line up funding to work with a mixture control specialist at a university engine lab.

BTW, I missed whatever it was that might have upset someone, so stick around.  I'm sure Joey won't mind too much if we go off at tangents from time to time. He's capable of politely telling us to keep down the noise while he works. 
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: teazer on Jul 28, 2011, 22:08:15
Joey, Nice looking clean engine there.

BTW all valve springs work in torsion so that's not an issue and we totally understand the logic for the change to work with the new valves.  Kibblewhite have been around for ages.  The company that Mr K's father IIRC founded was called something like Precision Machining and they put together a really fast CB77 Superhawk back in the sixties. 
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: Habanero52 on Jul 29, 2011, 10:05:42
I am sorry if anything I commented on the blog was a direct contributor to the upsetting of the people chiming in and giving their opinions.

I am a firm believer that everyone has the right to their opinion. Everyone must also realize that an opinion is just that, one personís personal view on a matter/subject.
When it comes to a respected Subject Matter Expert, then that opinion carries knowledge and experience and has the pillars to support it. When a person is not a Subject Matter Expert, they should clearly state that they are just providing an opinion and are open to being educated and obtain new knowledge on the matter at hand.
It is also Ok to agree to disagree. That is acceptable in my book.
I have lived my life this way and I am convinced that it has provided me with the tools to be educated and learn on a diversity of matters.

This is what I believe in!
All I wanted to do with my comments was to be further educated, that is all. I am sorry if I upset anyone!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 29, 2011, 15:21:23
Man! I am away from the computer for one day and miss all of the action! Hahahaha!

I do not see where any one person caused anything and as I mentioned earlier as much as I love them this is why I normally try to stay away from getting into overtechnical discussions as sometimes differing opinions end in hurt feelings and I would never want that for anyone here. I do however thoroughly enjoy a good technical discussion as well as reading everyones thoughts, experiences, and opinions.

Brother Rip-It-Up do not leave, you have commented and complimented my work on several threads here and I would like to thank you for that. Brother Teazer has a rich wealth of knowledge to share and helps a lot of members here. When I first joined dotheton he and I used to debate quite often...to the point that I used to jokingly call him my heckler! Hahahaha! but he knows I did not mean anything by it and I think that if you take the time to get to know him as I have you will come to view him, as well as Brothers Swagger, Revheadgl, Habanero52, Vonyinzer, and the rest of the crew whom has posted here and many other members who have not, with the same great admiration and respect that I do.

I tested the waters on a lot of different forums for quite a while and trust me when I say you will not find a better group of Brothers that are willing to share knowledge and support one another than you will find right here on dotheton so stay with us and share your knowledge and experiences with us and help those that you can. We are all here because we share the love affair with the motorcycle and there truly are a lot of overwhelmingly talented people here!

As far as what has been said about me I would like to thank you all for your kind comments, I could never put into words how much they mean to me or how honored and blessed I am to know and have you, as well as so many others here, as friends and Brothers!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: Swagger on Jul 29, 2011, 16:43:18
I like motorcycles!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cases back togethor
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 29, 2011, 18:09:17
I like motorcycles!

Hahahaha! Me too!

The machine work on the cylinders for the 498cc big bore conversion is complete! This photo shows the 74mm Henning racing pistons in the cylinders and the copper head gasket that we will be using. Now that the machine work is complete we are going to clean and paint the cylinders satin black to match the engine cases.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_02.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 30, 2011, 17:17:20
Booyah! hey by chance did you weigh the Henning pistons vs. the OE slugs?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 31, 2011, 01:39:44
Brother Swagger the pistons are similar in weight, without the rings and wristpins a single stock standard sized Honda piston weighs roughly 7 3/4 ounces or 219.7 grams and a single Henning 74mm piston weighs 7 1/2 ounces or 212.6 grams by my scale however Henning advertising says that their pistons weigh 218 grams. I also checked the wristpins for comparison and they are of equal weight.

Here are a couple of photos for comparison with a stock Honda piston on the left and the Henning piston on the right.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0002_03.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0004_02.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 31, 2011, 21:05:09
After discussing the cosmetic appearance of the engine some more with Brother Habanero52 we decided to make a change and run the inner stator, sprocket, and clutch cover with a blasted natural aluminum finish and polish the outer stator and oil filter covers as well as the cam bearing and points covers.

I really think that adding the natural aluminum finish as a cosmetic feature will compliment and look very nice with the satin black, polishing, and chrome/stainless bolts as well as giving the engine a nice balance of classic and hot rod styling.

I have been sanding and filing the covers since the engine arrived to smooth the casting lines, scratches, and imperfections and decided to dedicate the time necessary to get the natural finished covers completed this weekend. I completed all of the smoothing and spent a lot of time blasting them today to get a nice uniform finish and color.

Here are a few photos of the covers after I completed the blasting and washed them. I just finished applying a coat of sealer to protect them from oxidation so when it cures I will take a couple photos of them on the engine.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_03.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0005_05.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0007_04.jpg)


Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Swagger on Jul 31, 2011, 21:49:54
Joey, thanks for the info/pics....that's pretty useful. Looks like Henning et al compensated for the weight of the extra dome height by cutting back on skirt length. Do they give a spec for cylinder clearance or just go by OE?

Also, gotta commend you on your drilling pattern for the sprocket cover...too many look bad due to misaligned holes. That's a nicely uniform grid. Well done. Good choice on the sandblasted as well, I've been planning the same treatment on some of the smaller parts for Sakura's engine. What did you use for a sealer? I was planning on clear epoxy after a bath in muratic....
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 31, 2011, 22:47:30
Joey, thanks for the info/pics....that's pretty useful. Looks like Henning et al compensated for the weight of the extra dome height by cutting back on skirt length. Do they give a spec for cylinder clearance or just go by OE?

Also, gotta commend you on your drilling pattern for the sprocket cover...too many look bad due to misaligned holes. That's a nicely uniform grid. Well done. Good choice on the sandblasted as well, I've been planning the same treatment on some of the smaller parts for Sakura's engine. What did you use for a sealer? I was planning on clear epoxy after a bath in muratic....

You are very welcome Brother, I am always more than happy to share information. To look at the Henning pistons, even with the shorter skirt length, I would have thought that they may have been heavier than stock due to them having so much extra material in the dome as well as the wristpin bosses but they really did a good job keeping the weight down. The piston box says to clear .0020 but after speaking with Buff Harsh he recommended .0025 so that is the clearance that I went with.

I would love to take credit for the drilling on the sprocket cover but to be honest it was already drilled when I received the engine from Brother Habanero52, the drilling looked fresh so he may have done it or had it done...I have been meaning to ask him about that!

I am happy that you like the blasted look and again to be honest as many exotic paint jobs and polished parts that I do flat black and natural cast are actually two of my favorite cosmetic choices! Here at the shop not many folks will let me do their engines that way though as most everyone wants custom paint and mirror polish!

For the sealing of the covers Brother Habanero52 wanted to test the Shark Hide and as I have been considering testing it myself as well I happily agreed so he purchased a can for us to try. I did a lot of research on it and everyone that I have been able to find that has used it seems to have been very satisfied with it. I used it today to seal the blasted covers...it has the consistancy of water and you simply wipe it on with a cloth, it evaporates almost instantly and leaves a film that protects the aluminum which is transparent. The instructions call for a 24 hour cure time before applying a second coat however I just checked them and they are dry to the touch and the covers have a satin look to them. When I applied the Shark Hide it did darken the color of the aluminum a little, similar to as if it was wet. The inner stator cover and sprocket cover look nice however the clutch cover looks a little splotchy or almost has a stained look similar to wood so I am going to have to let it cure and see if that goes away, it has a nice patina look to it but it does not look as clean as after I blasted it.

Joe, That looks really good, funnily enough I was planning on a brushed finish on the covers on the 400. I was thinking of clear anodizing but will wait to see how you clear finish looks first.

Thank you Brother, I am happy that you like it! Man I love what you are doing with the Lime Spider, it is (I almost said she right there...Hahahaha!) looking good! A brushed finish would look really nice!

Cast and brushed finishes from all of us...? Great men do think alike!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: joeyputt on Jul 31, 2011, 23:35:48
Brother I am not sure what this 1 quart can cost as Brother Habanero52 purchased it. One can would do a lot of parts as it is thin like water and you just wipe a couple of thin coats on. If it tests well on the polished parts I am going to get some for the shop and can send you some if you like but it is flammable as it has xylene and toulene in it which are paint thinners so it would probably be expensive to ship to your part of the world.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Swagger on Aug 01, 2011, 04:32:30
Of note, unless there's a new process I haven't heard of (which could be possible) you won't be able to anodize your engine cases Rev. To make aluminum flow nicely during casting it's often alloyed with one of several 'pot' metals like zinc or tin. Unfortunately these act as inclusions and during the acid bath portion of the anodize process, rather that opening surface scale the inclusions burn away destroying the entire piece. Also, in the case of porous 30 year old Japanese engine pieces, they'll be contaminated by motor oil and carbon.

There is one anodizing process for cast aluminum in truth but it yields a yucky brownish coating for anti corrosion purposes.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 01, 2011, 10:42:22
Thank you all for the comments!!!!
The drill pattern was an easy task. I layed the pattern out on a piece of graph paper: photocopied it onto a matt finish clear adhesive sheet; cut the pattern to fit the area; adhered to the cover and then just went to town drilling. That was all!  ;D
As for the SharkHide I purchased it from a marine supply store on line. The cost was around $50.00. This type of product can not be shipped via airfreight due to it's volatility.
As for anodizing cast aluminum, I could not find a process that would give me the results that I was looking for, thus choice of SharkHide.
I think that this engine will be a master piece based on the amount dedication that Joey has put into it! ;D :)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 01, 2011, 11:11:28
The drill pattern was an easy task. I layed the pattern out on a piece of graph paper: photocopied it onto a matt finish clear adhesive sheet; cut the pattern to fit the area; adhered to the cover and then just went to town drilling. That was all!  ;D

I have to agree with Brother Swagger and say that you did a beautiful job!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 01, 2011, 12:11:22
Thanks!! It means a to to me that you guys liked the pattern. :-[ :) ;D
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Useful Idiot on Aug 01, 2011, 12:44:13
Awesome build so far. A little OT, but do any of you cats know if they make a 'big bore' kit for the cb500t? If they can bump a 450, I'm ASSuming they could do the same for a 500.

muchas gracias!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 01, 2011, 12:54:31
Here is a good place to start.
Good luck!!!
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=25742.0 (http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=25742.0)

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: lingo on Aug 01, 2011, 13:11:36
Awesome build so far. A little OT, but do any of you cats know if they make a 'big bore' kit for the cb500t? If they can bump a 450, I'm ASSuming they could do the same for a 500.

muchas gracias!


I believe the 500t and the 450 are the same bore. The difference is in the stroke. So the 450 pistons should work in your 500t but I would be concerned with clearance issues.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Useful Idiot on Aug 01, 2011, 13:13:11
Thanks guys.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: lingo on Aug 01, 2011, 13:17:46
I think that the piston set that is listed is for a four cylinder.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Swagger on Aug 01, 2011, 13:29:51
Hey Useful,
The link given was actually for the CB500/550 4cylinder. To overbore a 500T, simply nab yourself a set of overbore pistons for the 450. You'll need to have the skirts machined back to clear the crank due to the 500T having a longer stroke thus the extra ccs. Depending on the pistons you may need to relieve material around squish band, usually done by turning the piston on a lathe. You may also be able to account for it with a thicker base gasket but whatever you do you'll want to assure clearance and remember that the rods stretch a bit at higher rpms.

74mm pistons will yield ~550cc and a solid boost in compression. If you're using OE overbore pistons I believe (don't have my notes in front of me) the static compression will fall somewhere right around 10-1 (due to the difference in wrist pin to ring land height) so as long as your carbs are tuned decently you can run pump gas just fine. A mild cam regrind and some port cleanup make for a nice boost in performance.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 01, 2011, 13:53:20
I apologize for the error. My bad!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: Swagger on Aug 01, 2011, 15:10:22
Meh...no biggie mate....it's your thread!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! 74mm 498cc big bore!
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 01, 2011, 23:26:16
I took some more photos today while I worked on the engine.

I installed the rebuilt starter, starter gear, chain, and a new inner stator cover gasket on the engine.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0004_03.jpg)

The Shark Hide cured nicely on the inner stator cover so I installed the rebuilt stator into the cover and bolted the assembly to the engine with new stainless allen head bolts. After the cover was in place I attached the neutral switch and secured the wiring.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0005_06.jpg)

Brother Habanero52 had me send the cams to Megacycle, they welded and reground them to their new vintage road racing profile.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0006_02.jpg)

We also had the rockers welded and reground.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0009_01.jpg)



Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! The cams are here!
Post by: Useful Idiot on Aug 02, 2011, 14:13:05
Looks amazing so far.

Me thinks I'm going to try the shark hide on my rebuild. I painted my motor but after 2 seasons with no front fender, it's looking pretty beat.


*swag, thanks for the info. I saw they were for a 4cly after I posted, but didn't want to interrupt the thread any more.

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! The cams are here!
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 02, 2011, 23:49:43
Looks amazing so far.

Thank you Brother!

This afternoon I worked on the clutch side of the engine, this photo shows it bare except for the shift drum, drum stop, neutral stop, plate, and springs which I had already installed. Notice there is no kickstarter spindle shaft assembly in the cases as Brother Habanero52 requested that I leave it out and build a plug to seal the clutch cover.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0013.jpg)

Here is a photo of how she looks now after I installed the gearshift spindle, arm spring, return spring, crankshaft thrust washer, primary drive gear, new oil pump o-ring, a new oil pump, new oil pump plunger, new plunger pin, clutch outer body with oil pump rod assembly, clutch center hub, new Barnett clutches, the pressure plate, new clutch springs, etc.   

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0018.jpg)







Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: teazer on Aug 03, 2011, 03:29:05
That's a lot of camshaft for a street motor.  Just saying... I have run race cams on the street and they do make more power as revs rise but tend to be a PIA at lower engine speeds.  I guess if it spends its time on the twisties it will probably be OK, just not so civilized around town. I hope you are using smallish carbs on this one to keep it tractable.

That engine sure does look pretty.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 03, 2011, 11:18:03
Brother Teazer thank you for the compliment about the engine looking pretty, you know that means a lot to me!

The cams are Megacycles .365"/.350" lift middle grind not their .411" full race grind and the engine is getting a pair of Mikuni VM32's. She is a lot of engine for the street however I have a feeling Brother Habanero52 is not building this one for civility! Hahahaha!

I believe I had posted a photo of the carburetors earlier but here it is again for anyone that may not have seen them or would like to know what they look like.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0010_00-1.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: teazer on Aug 03, 2011, 12:33:14
From the photos I figured they were the X10-X11 grind.  That's still more cam than some racers use.  I'd use that on a race bike with those carbs and pistons.  It should be a fast bike when it's all done.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 03, 2011, 13:42:42
Brother the cams are the 120-X11 intake and 120-X12 exhaust grinds.

Here are the specs on the cams -

Intake - .365" lift, 274 duration@.040, 102 lobe centers, open 35btc and close 59abc. Run with .004 valve lash.

Exhaust - .350" lift, 270 duration, 106 lobe centers, open 61bbc and close at 29atc. Run with .005 valve lash.

The 120-X7 is the 411" lift full race profile that Megacycle is offering.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: Sonreir on Aug 03, 2011, 13:44:36
How is ignition going to be handled on this beast?  Going with electronic, I hope?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 03, 2011, 14:03:53
How is ignition going to be handled on this beast?  Going with electronic, I hope?

Yes we are wanting to go with an electronic ignition, I will let Brother Habanero52 fill you in on the details of what he would like to do as he is still working on that at the moment.

Brother Glenn they definately would not let us ship it by air! We would have to put it on a boat if that was allowed but it would take a while to get there!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 03, 2011, 20:43:50
Electronics is the only way to light up this dragon. I am working with Charlie's, in SF to get a Dynatech that he is modifying for sale, it will be a drop in without any mods required. It is currently under test. As soon as he  approves it, I will be gettingg one. I have considered the other more expensive optio and that is plan B. Comments please. :o 8)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Clutch side engine assembly
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 03, 2011, 23:04:20
I cleaned the cylinders and painted them satin black to match the cases this afternoon, I set them on the engine to let the paint cure and took a couple of photos.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_04.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0004_04.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders cleaned and painted
Post by: Maritime on Aug 04, 2011, 00:20:59
damn sexy!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders cleaned and painted
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 04, 2011, 13:08:31
Thank you Brother Maritime, as always your compliments mean a lot!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders cleaned and painted
Post by: teazer on Aug 04, 2011, 15:43:07
Electronics is the only way to light up this dragon. I am working with Charlie's, in SF to get a Dynatech that he is modifying for sale, it will be a drop in without any mods required. It is currently under test. As soon as he  approves it, I will be gettingg one. I have considered the other more expensive optio and that is plan B. Comments please. :o 8)

There are so many options and so few that are practical for the street.  DYNA GL100 is such an easy one to adapt but it seems that sometimes the rotor is too far out and needs to be machined to let it fit closer to the head. 

The Best system would be one on the crank but that's not so simple to organize on a street motor.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders cleaned and painted
Post by: teazer on Aug 04, 2011, 15:52:40
Brother the cams are the 120-X11 intake and 120-X12 exhaust grinds.

Thanks Joey, I should have been more careful with those numbers.  That's still a race cam with a lot of lift, so it should make for a fun ride. We found that megacycle's mildest cams tend to make for the nicest bikes to ride, but I don't have enough experience with their 450 cams to know if that's true for the 450 as well.

DYNA is a good choice for the ignition and a GL1000 unit almost drops straight in with little modification.  Sometimes DYNA rotors need to be machined to drop the magnet back close to the backing plate to get a clean reliable trigger with that conversion.  Keep it cool. Lots of other options but few appropriate for a street bike.

Power Dynamo would be worth looking at if it was programmable, but way more dollars.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders cleaned and painted
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 04, 2011, 16:17:34
You are welcome Brother, I was not saying that you were wrong on those numbers I just supplied them for you as I know you like to look at the profiles.

Thank you for the referance to the Power Dynamo, I will take a look at them. I am not a fan of the GL1000 conversion, I have been looking at the bore tech recently however it is a little costly as well at almost $400, have you ever used one of their ignitions? Hopefully Charlies will release an affordable bolt in Dyna unit!

As popular as the cb450's have become in recent years it is surprising that Dyna has not offered an ignition for them...? I guess they would have to be able to sell enough of them for the research and development to be profitable and the market audience for them is just not large enough but I still would have thought that they would have offered an affordable solution to the mag ignition for vintage racers on a budget by now?

I know there was some previous discussion in this thread about the valve spring conversion, it has arrived so here is a photo of the springs, spacers, and the titanium keepers.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0005_07.jpg)

I also removed the 444cc from the cylinders and changed it to 498cc before I painted them yesterday.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0015_00-1.jpg)



Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders painted & valve spring conversion
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 04, 2011, 16:35:29
Do any of you have any experience with this electronic ignition?
http://www.cb450ignition.com/ (http://www.cb450ignition.com/)
(http://www.cb450ignition.com/CB4503.JPG)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders painted & valve spring conversion
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 04, 2011, 16:54:06
Mr. Swagger.
Are you aware of the existence of this product family?
This is the material that is used by gunsmiths and manufacturers of firearms.
http://www.kgcoatings.com/protective-coatings/1000-anodized (http://www.kgcoatings.com/protective-coatings/1000-anodized)

This website has all kinds of very interesting coatings.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders painted & valve spring conversion
Post by: Swagger on Aug 04, 2011, 18:10:52
I've used a ton of gun-kote products (1600 and 2300)on...well....guns. I haven't however played with this one looks interesting and if it holds up well it might be a good alternative for coating cast aluminum in pretty colors. I'd want to see how it holds up to regular wear though. For giggles you can prep with muratic acid over a polished aluminum surface and spray with candy urethanes for a pretty nice effect. Unfortunately painted aluminum will always be painted aluminum, the finish will eventually flake off. I have heard of etchant being added to paint going on aluminum but I don't know how that would work out with the translucent nature of candy paint.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders painted & valve spring conversion
Post by: teazer on Aug 04, 2011, 21:07:57
That would be a PAMCO if I'm not mistaken.  very popular with the XS650 crowd. Recently released for teh 450 and SOHC 4s
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinders painted & valve spring conversion
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 05, 2011, 00:04:05
Today I installed the new Tsubaki timing chain, a new timing chain roller guide in the top case, and a new cylinder base gasket onto the cases.

The paint on the cylinders had dried nicely so I also installed a new o-ring around the base of each cylinder, checked the clearances of all the piston rings, and assembled the pistons, rings, wristpins, circlips, and cylinders on to the engine.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0006_03.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0007_05.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0010_02.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0012_01.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 05, 2011, 01:28:00
I have been doing some research on the Pamco unit that Brother Habanero52 posted the photo of earlier and it looks like it was released just a few months ago for the cb450 and from what I have found so far everyone seems to have had good results with it.

I am considering getting one to test on the reverse port as he also offers them for the cb550.

I normally do not link to other sites but as it is a 20 page thread with the builder of this ignition I thought others may be interested. I am not a member there I just found it on google.

http://www.hondatwins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1030 (http://www.hondatwins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1030)

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 05, 2011, 23:29:08
I read most of that thread and the Pamco seems to have good reviews from those that are running them on the cb450 so far.

My main concern from looking at the photos of the ignition is that the small wiring is not protected with an epoxy, etc. as most motorsports electronics are to protect the small wiring from vibration and breaking.

Has anyone here run a Pamco ignition on any other make of motorcycle and if so could you share your experiences with us please.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 05, 2011, 23:52:41
I have been sanding the engine covers since they arrived and worked on the stator cover some more today.

Brother Habanero52 asked me to polish the cover and paint the Honda lettering red, I also painted the background of the Honda logo satin black to match the engine cases and cylinders to see what it would look like but that may change as I will have to see what Brother Habanero52 likes the looks of best.

Here is a photo of how the cover looked when I received it.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0022.jpg)

I still have more polishing to do but I bolted the cover to the engine as well as the sprocket cover to take a couple of photos.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0013_00.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0015_01.jpg)





Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: Swagger on Aug 08, 2011, 01:16:07
That.....is fantastic! There are so many ways to finish,the 450/500t engine, like this.....tons for work and sweat and time, or like me....lazy. Sheesh...I got lucky with as perfect an engine as you could ask for. This one will just be perfect.....
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: Swagger on Aug 08, 2011, 01:21:29
Hey Joey.....(sorry for the extra post....lazy again) you surely mentioned it previously but I really am feeling lazy. What type of paint did you use on the main cases and cylinders? It really does look a treat.

Mr.Very Hot Pepper(Hahahaha...might be a little drunk too),
So I can't remember if you've mentioned or not but what are your thoughts about the chassis for this beastie? Care to dish?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: Flying J on Aug 08, 2011, 17:51:05
Im running a PAMCO on my 125, works fine.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 08, 2011, 19:45:23
Mr. Moore, how long have you been using it?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: schaubster on Aug 08, 2011, 20:17:22
Amazing project!  When can you start on my 450?!?   :P
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 08, 2011, 20:43:49
Brother Swagger the paint I used on the cases and cylinders, and we will be using it on the cylinder head as well, is VHT SP903 which is a satin black color and is a specially formulated case paint for motorcycles and atv's. The SP903 is also good to 550 degrees and is gas and oil resistant. After discussing it with Brother Habanero52 we are also not going to run the red letters so I am going to polish them for more of a classic look.

Brother ffjmoore it is great to see you here I have not talked to you in a while! As Brother Habanero52 already asked please give us some more information about your experience with the Pamco ignition if you do not mind.

Brother schaubster thank you from both myself and Brother Habanero52 for the compliment! I can start on your 450 immediately, just say the word man!

I will try to add some new photos later on this evening.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: Flying J on Aug 09, 2011, 01:14:40
Mr. Moore, how long have you been using it?
Since early june.
There is nothing much to report. i put it on, set the timing, bolted the cover back on and have been ridding it ever since.

(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g276/thepanman99/cl125/IMAG0058.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 09, 2011, 01:24:38
Thank you Brother ffjmoore, we have been hearing good things about the Pamco ignition and hoped that some members here would share their experiences with it.

This afternoon I assembled the oil filter rotor and installed the clutch cover with new stainless bolts.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_05.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0004_06.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 09, 2011, 01:37:28
Stop it Joe, youre making the rest of us look bad!!!!

Brother I am just trying to get a head start before you unleash the photos of the lime spider with a turbo and make us all look really bad!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 09, 2011, 02:10:46
Haha! It will turn out alright but I definitely dont have your attention to detail.

Those are modest words for a man of your creative genius! You forget..I have seen your motorcycles!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 09, 2011, 15:44:51
Can I see pictures of them? ;D
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: Swagger on Aug 09, 2011, 16:18:15
I ran a pamco in my last xs650, I beat that bike like a bad stepchild and the ignition was a set and forget.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 09, 2011, 16:47:20
Well that settles it! Brother Swagger I am going to have to get one and try it on the reverse port! I am awaiting Brother Habanero52's decision on what he will run on this engine.

Can I see pictures of them? ;D

Brother Habanero52 if you click on the lime spider or xl100 minimus in Brother revheadgl's messages it will take you to his build threads. Brother Swagger has a nice cb450 going togethor in the bob and chop section titled "Sakura the Saki Rocket", Brother Teazer has a cool GT750 titled "Phat Trakka" in the trackers section...everyone who has posted here and supported your thread is very talented and have beautiful builds that you would enjoy!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Big bore pistons installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 09, 2011, 23:07:06
Today I filed and sanded the edges of the cylinder heads cooling fins and painted the head.

I set it on the engine to let the paint cure and took a couple of photos. I still have to do the finish work on the fin edges but here is how it looks so far.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0012_02.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0013_01.jpg)



Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: ponycarman on Aug 09, 2011, 23:49:09
That looks increadable!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 10, 2011, 01:24:04
Thank you Brother ponycarman, your compliment means a lot!

Brother Glenn that is a nice power file! The fins on this cylinder head had some heavy uneven casting in a few areas and I did file them by hand. I really like crafting by hand but I almost bought a power file a while back, have you used it yet? Let us know how you like it!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 10, 2011, 08:43:26
Joe, this is looking awesome!!!!!!!! SWEET!!!! 8) ;D :D ;)
Thanks for the info on how to access the other builds. I will browse around
I agree that all of these "posters" are very talented and I am fortunate for their willingness to share with us their comments and experiences.
Mr. Swagger, I appreciate your feedback on the PAMCO ignition. i will be ordering it in the next couple of days and get it to Joe.

I can't wait!!!!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Swagger on Aug 10, 2011, 16:14:21
Should do nicely for you!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 10, 2011, 20:10:49
Brother Habanero ordered new cam bearing housings for this engine, the castings were a little rough around the edges and had a couple of dings in them so today I filed, sanded, and started the first stage of polishing them as well as the original points cover. I also removed the red lettering from the stator cover and polished the letters.

For those of you that have not seen this photo, here is how she looked when we started!

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0001.jpg)

I am still polishing the covers but here is how they look so far.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_06.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Swagger on Aug 10, 2011, 21:20:28
Something about the polish vs. the sandblasted surface is bugging me........
dunno. Looks tidy though.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 11, 2011, 10:02:19
Mr. Swagger, I understand where you are coming from and respect your opinion very much.
Personally I beleive that it will take a bit getting use to since it is a very different look and an uncommon one!
I believe that it makes for very nice contrasts and flows of textures and colors.
Most of all, it is different withoiut any radical chromatic effects, and that achieves what I have been looking for.
 :) ;D
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Swagger on Aug 11, 2011, 13:35:27
Good point, it's easy to get caught up in the 'rut'.....I'll wait and see the whole thing together in the bike. Speaking of which, what are you plans for the bike itself?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Sonreir on Aug 11, 2011, 13:41:32
Hey Joe, This will show you how lazy I am, on minimus I did the fin edges by hand like you have done here. I really like the look and I will be doing it again on the 400, but it can be time consuming.

No more....I bought this, lol,

http://www.ryobi.com.au/Products/PowerTools/Corded/Files/EPF400.aspx (http://www.ryobi.com.au/Products/PowerTools/Corded/Files/EPF400.aspx)

That's nothing.  I bought THIS (http://www.amazon.com/Marvy-Uchida-Calligraphy-Pen-Silver/dp/B000S176TO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313080867&sr=8-1) for my fins.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Sonreir on Aug 11, 2011, 13:44:43
Mr. Swagger, I understand where you are coming from and respect your opinion very much.
Personally I beleive that it will take a bit getting use to since it is a very different look and an uncommon one!
I believe that it makes for very nice contrasts and flows of textures and colors.
Most of all, it is different withoiut any radical chromatic effects, and that achieves what I have been looking for.
 :) ;D

I ended up doing a polished alternator with a brushed-look left case cover and I think it turned out pretty well, too.  Good choice.  :)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Chucklhead05 on Aug 11, 2011, 14:11:21
As one who does not know the inner workings of a motorcycle engine, this has been very educational. That is a GREAT looking engine!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 12, 2011, 08:55:03
Mr. Swagger;
In addition to the outstanding engine by Joey, the plan for the bike is as follows:

- Black frame, either sating or wrinkle finish
- Polished or glass blasted hubs (drilled)
- Acewell Multimeter 2853AB
- Pamco electronic ignition
- Dual Dynatech Coils
- Fuel tank with aircraft type bung and chrome cap, tank painted in Tundra Pyrite Mica Metallic with two silver stripes at a 45 degree angle across the tank with a Pastinaca (Sting Ray) domed decal on each side.
- Roc City Roadster Cafe seat painted in Toyota Tundra Pyrite Mica Metallic
- Seat upholstered in black Sting Ray hide
- Front Fender from a Ducatti painted like the seat and fuel tank.
- Yellow headlamp in a silver or black bucket
- Rear sets.
- YSS PD valves with Hyperpro progressive springs for forks
- YSS RZ 362 TRL rear shocks
- Black Anodized Al Buchanan wheels with SS spokes (F 1.85 x 19 r 2.15 x 18)
- Pirelli tires (F 90/90-19 R 100/90-18)
- Ducati Sequential LED Tail light
- LED front turn signals
- Black Lossa Engineering clubman handle bars
- Some metal etchings of the Pastinaca (Sting ray) on some componets.
...and anything else that I amy come up with to compliment the above. ;D

What do you think? 8)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Maritime on Aug 12, 2011, 09:03:35
That, is a nice list of goodies.  With the freshly updated and rebuilt motor it will for all intents and purposes be a "New" motorcycle, please be sure to post updates in a build thread as I would love to see this as you put it together.

Cheers,
Maritime
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: benarmour on Aug 12, 2011, 09:39:47
Completely un-bike-related, but are you aware that 'pastinaca' means parsnip in italian?
On more bike-related issues, GOOD JOB SIRS.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 12, 2011, 09:41:56
Thanks. Will do what I,can to post the build.
I forgot to mention the dual Magni curved megaphone exhaust in black satin.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 12, 2011, 09:43:11
Yes I am, but in Latin it means sting ray. ;D
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 12, 2011, 09:55:20
"Dasyatis Pastinica" is a Sting Ray, whereby Pastinaca Sativa is the turnip.
Now that we are both fluent in Latin........ 8) ;D ;) :)
I appreciate your comment Mr. Benarmour. As I always say, it is important to learn something new every day.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cylinder head
Post by: Swagger on Aug 12, 2011, 19:58:44
Wow...that's going to be one helluva bike mate! I LOVE the YSS stuff, great bang for the buck too. I have a YSS shock on the back of the SuperIII and it was transformative, the bike handled well previously but after the instal it tracked like it was glued to the ground.

This will be a spectacular bike  man.....
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Racing valves and spring conversion
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 13, 2011, 10:26:19
The 5mm tapered pilot that I ordered came in so I spent Thursday afternoon cutting the valve seats to attain the proper valve stem height for correct spring and seat pressure, clearances, etc. That night I lapped all of the valves and yesterday I cleaned the head again and assembled the 5mm racing valves and the lightweight racing valve spring conversion with titanium retainers into the cylinder head.

Now that I have completed all of the valvework and the cams are ready I can finish the final polishing of the cam bearing housings, bolt the new cam chain guides to the cylinder head, assemble the cylinder head to the engine, and install the cams!

It is difficult to get a photo that shows the springs in the head but here is how the spring conversion that replaces the torsion bar system looks installed in the cylinder head on the exhaust side.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0013_02.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Racing valves and spring conversion
Post by: lassenc on Aug 13, 2011, 15:32:02
Running a Pamco in my XS650. Mine cracked the thin insulation on the wires, ignition died. Now I don't know if it was the cracked insulation in a combination with a rainy day that did the trick.

Pete instantly sent me a new unit, where I reinforced the wiring with heatshrink, have been running solid for 6000km.

If I could do it over, I'd go with a Pamco. Petes customer service is superb, and the product does very well.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Racing valves and spring conversion
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 14, 2011, 12:50:40
Brother lassenc thank you for sharing your experiences and advice with the Pamco ignition, the issue you had with the exposed wiring has been my only concern just by looking at photos of the ignition. It is very nice to hear that he has friendly customer service and stands behind his product! Brother Habanero52 has decided to try the Pamco ignition on this engine and I will be testing one on one of my motorcycles as well.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Racing valves and spring conversion
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 16, 2011, 01:45:50
Today I installed the three guide pins, new stud seals, a new copper head gasket, a new front cam chain guide roller assembly, a new rear cam chain guide roller, and the cylinder head on the engine and torqued all of the head nuts.

I spent most of yesterday afternoon doing the final sanding on the cam bearing housings so today after I installed the cylinder head I polished them some more and am now ready to install the cams, rockers, and rocker shafts.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0016_00-1.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 17, 2011, 12:30:20
I did a lot of work on the cylinder head yesterday.

Here is a photo of the new cam bearing housings after I polished them.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0001_03-1.jpg)

I installed the rockers that we had welded and resurfaced, the rocker shafts, seals, and the lash caps, the red on the rockers, shafts, etc. is assembly lube.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0004_07.jpg)

I installed the top cam chain guide roller and prepared the cam bearing housings by assembling all of the tachometer drive parts in the right front housing, adding new seals to the tachometer drive and the ignition base, and deburring all of the cam bearing faces.

After we had all of the cam bearing housings ready we installed the camshafts to measure the end play with the new cam bearing housings, removed them to adjust the end play and reinstalled them.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0003_07.jpg)

I also installed the intake manifolds, the kickstarter plug in the clutch cover, and a few other small parts. She is getting close to being ready to run!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: One80Auto on Aug 17, 2011, 20:28:33
I am an expert DTT lurker but had to comment.  This is really nice build up to watch.  It looks amazing and I'm sure the photos don't do it justice.  Joe, what's the best way to get ahold of you for some questions...a pm here or your DWMS website?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 18, 2011, 00:17:21
Brother One80Auto thank you for the compliment, they always mean more to me than I could ever put into words! I am here on dotheton almost every day so you are more than welcome to pm me here or contact me through the DWMS site, however you feel the most comfortable. I also took a look at your CB750 and it looks awesome man!

Today I set all of the cam timing and installed the cam chain, adjusted all of the rockers to their proper lash, and checked all of the clearances. I also disassembled, cleaned, painted, reassembled, and installed the cam chain tensioner and adjusted it. This afternoon I blasted the front and rear cam covers, sealed them, and installed the intake side cover.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: Useful Idiot on Aug 18, 2011, 14:01:02
We def need more motor build threads. This one's amazing.

Joey, you gotta link(s) for polishing? I'm about ready to start rebuilding my CB500T motor and I want to polish my cam bearing housing, etc. If I could get mine half as clean as yours, I'd be stoked.

Thanks
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 19, 2011, 01:15:21
We def need more motor build threads. This one's amazing.

Joey, you gotta link(s) for polishing? I'm about ready to start rebuilding my CB500T motor and I want to polish my cam bearing housing, etc. If I could get mine half as clean as yours, I'd be stoked.

Thanks

Brother I am very happy that you are enjoying this thread and thank you for the compliment, I really appreciate it! I do not know of any polishing threads but I am sure there are a lot of them out there, I can send you a pm with more detailed information about polishing if you like or feel free to pm or email me if you have specific questions and I will be more than happy to help you any way that I can.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 19, 2011, 01:55:10
Here are a couple photos of the rear side of the engine, the first photo shows how the engine looked when I received it from Brother Habanero52 and the second photo shows how she looked as I started working on her today.

This afternoon I installed the carburetors and a few other parts. There was not enough clearance between the choke levers and the rear cam cover as well as both of the Mikuni carburetors having left side choke levers. I was able to adjust the choke lever assembly on the left carburetor to achieve the necessary clearance, on the right carburetor I turned the choke levers bracket and modified and shortened the choke lever so that it is now on the right side of the carburetor for easier access. I will take and add new photos of the engine with the carburetors tomorrow.

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0005-1.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0016_01-1.jpg)





Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: ponycarman on Aug 19, 2011, 02:01:23
What a transformation! It looks increadable!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 19, 2011, 15:50:36
What a transformation! It looks increadable!

Thank you Brother!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: JustinLonghorn on Aug 19, 2011, 15:54:00
Yep, I am a fan, sir.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: Swagger on Aug 19, 2011, 18:46:11
Whew....those shiny new cams make me feel all funny inside!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Cams and rockers installed
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 19, 2011, 20:13:35
Yep, I am a fan, sir.

Thank you Brother!

Whew....those shiny new cams make me feel all funny inside!

Hahahaha! Me too Brother! I had to take one last photo of how pretty the cams are before I put the assembly lube on the lobes!

Here is a photo of the engine with the Mikuni VM32 carburetors and stacks!

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0023_00-1.jpg)

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Carburetors and stacks
Post by: Swagger on Aug 19, 2011, 20:31:35
.....Woof!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Carburetors and stacks
Post by: ponycarman on Aug 19, 2011, 20:34:29
Wow! Just wow!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Carburetors and stacks
Post by: One80Auto on Aug 19, 2011, 21:40:46
Droooool....
 
Joe, sent you a PM.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Carburetors and stacks
Post by: Habanero52 on Aug 20, 2011, 08:45:30
I am a lucky man! Joey, you the man!
Thanks.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Carburetors and stacks
Post by: joeyputt on Aug 21, 2011, 18:12:54
I could never thank you all enough for your compliments and support or put into words how much they truly mean to me, you all make me very proud to be a member here. Thank you Brothers!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Electronic ignition
Post by: joeyputt on Sep 13, 2011, 23:22:52
Here is a photo of the electronic ignition that Brother Habanero52 decided to use installed in the engine. I am putting the finishing touches on the engine now so I will add all of the before and after photos very soon!

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0043.jpg)

Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 New photos! Electronic ignition
Post by: schaubster on Sep 14, 2011, 15:35:06
any tips for tools to use on polishing those covers?  I have a dremel but i think i need better attachments.  What did you use?
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Swagger on Sep 14, 2011, 17:51:01
Fantastic! Did you do any porting or anything to that beast?
(edit: you may have mentioned it previously but my head is full of other stuff so disregard if you already posted...I'll go look for myself)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: joeyputt on Sep 14, 2011, 18:02:56
Here are the before and after photos of this engine build!

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0002.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5%20Complete/100_5214.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0004.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5%20Complete/100_5196.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0005.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5%20Complete/100_5207.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5/000_0001.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5%20Complete/100_5199.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5%20Complete/100_5205.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5%20Complete/100_5187.jpg)

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/joeyputt/CB450%20K5%20Complete/100_5189.jpg)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Sonreir on Sep 14, 2011, 18:06:28
Great work, joey.  That's something to be proud of; not just the artistic value, but also bringing another vintage motor back to life, on the road, and breathing fire!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: JustinLonghorn on Sep 14, 2011, 18:19:35
Absolutely beautiful man.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: ponycarman on Sep 14, 2011, 18:47:31
Simply gorgeous!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Maritime on Sep 15, 2011, 08:48:57
Wow, excellent transformation!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Habanero52 on Sep 15, 2011, 11:12:51
From the ashes a powerful beautiful, fire breathing phoenix rose.
Thanks Joe!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: joeyputt on Sep 15, 2011, 12:04:35
Thank you all for your kind comments, as always they mean more to me than you know and make me very proud to be a member here amongst so many talented and supportive Brothers!

From the ashes a powerful beautiful, fire breathing phoenix rose.
Thanks Joe!

You are very welcome Brother however I am the one who owes you thanks for so many things, it truly is an honor and priviledge to have worked with you on this project!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: JustinLonghorn on Sep 15, 2011, 12:16:03
I can't wait to see the motorcycle that wraps around this beautiful motor.
 
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Swagger on Sep 15, 2011, 13:13:21
+1!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: TheButtonPusher on Sep 27, 2011, 16:58:05
This is a wonderful build, joined after reading this thread.  8)
 
Question where can i find a new roller for the cam chain tensioner? I have a cb450k5, Thanks
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: joeyputt on Sep 27, 2011, 22:09:24
Thank you for taking the time to read this thread and welcome to dotheton Brother! I just sent you a message about the cam chain tensioner.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: DC74inc on Nov 07, 2011, 20:47:44
i just recently picked up this 1967 cb450k0 and also just acquired a cl175 tank for it from salvage, Im not too big into posting and taking pics of builds but if you guys recognize, I may shoot some photos up every now and then.  I dont know what I want to do for a seat yet. so DWMS rules by the way..
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: joeyputt on Nov 14, 2011, 22:54:52
i just recently picked up this 1967 cb450k0 and also just acquired a cl175 tank for it from salvage, Im not too big into posting and taking pics of builds but if you guys recognize, I may shoot some photos up every now and then.  I dont know what I want to do for a seat yet. so DWMS rules by the way..

Thank you for the DWMS rules comment Brother, your support really means a lot to me and is greatly appreciated! Your 450 looks cool man, I would love to see more photos of it!
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: nobrakese28 on Mar 08, 2012, 01:09:02
Beautiful build! Where did you get the manifolds to run Mikunis? I think the hole to hole spacing on the intake manifolds for the CB450 was an odd size (64-65mm)..
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Habanero52 on Mar 08, 2012, 10:51:38
I bought them as a kit from the Power-Barn. It included everything need for their installation. Greta guys to work with!

http://www.power-barn.com/servlet/StoreFront (http://www.power-barn.com/servlet/StoreFront)
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: nobrakese28 on Mar 12, 2012, 22:10:17
Hey boss! Did the Mikunis/Velocity stacks fit under the side covers on the bike? My carburetors are dead...I will be converting to VM32's by the end of the week.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Swagger on Mar 12, 2012, 22:23:23
Isn't there a build thread for this bike? I thought there was, need to see how it's coming.....
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Habanero52 on Mar 13, 2012, 10:20:34
nobrakese28: I do not know since the engine is not yet on the bike, nor do I plan to use side covers. I speculate that these velocity stacks will interfere with the covers based on their size.

Swagger: Unfortunately as of this moment, there is no thread. I plan to start one soon. I have had to put the project on hold due to priorities that have taken over. The bike is totally stripped down to the frame and that is what we will start  the thread with. I promise you that I will have the thread stared by next week.

Thank you all for showing interest in this project of mine. I hope that i can live to all of your expectations. This is the first of many builds that I have planned.

Take care and stay tunned.
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Big Bore Engine! Before and after photos!
Post by: Swagger on Mar 14, 2012, 14:51:27
Life has a way of derailing our best laid plans...hang in chief. It'll happen.....
Title: Re: "La Pastinaca" CB450 498cc Engine Built By DWMS Racing!
Post by: joeyputt on Jan 11, 2014, 20:57:30
Brothers I could never Thank You all enough for your compliments and support, they truly mean more to me than you will ever know! I really enjoyed sharing this engine build with you all and it is very nice to hear that you all enjoyed it as well! Brother Habanero has started a new build thread for the complete motorcycle build here on dotheton as well so please visit this link to see the rest of the build! http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=36476.msg398872#msg398872