Norton / Harley Ironhead Cafe Project.. Build thread

Bevelheadmhr said:
The oil tank mounting caused some head scratching. The mounts at the top our obvious, but how to use the grooved bosses on the lower sides wasn't clear. Original Tritons used rubber loops to pull the oil tank down against the top of the gearbox, with a rubber pad sandwiched between to try absorb the vibes. On the Ace Café Norley they used the same method, but with the oil tank sat on a T piece welded to the rear engine mount. My frame didn't have this T piece, I did Email Norley to ask about this, but got no reply.

So before the frame went for powder coat I had a couple of hooks welded to the inside of the frame, to be used to hang the oil tank via rubber O rings, or some other suitable loop. I prefer my method as it better isolates the tank from engine vibes.

This is how the Ace Café Norley mounted their tank, notice the upright tube supporting the tank from beneath, which my frame doesn't have, and my bike pictured beneath

Let me make an observation about the oil tank for a future revision. My oil bag (stock steel tank) on my Triumph 650 would tear the tabs off the tank and open a hole on the back side even though the tank was suspended from 2 straps with tubes at the end and 2 isolastic rubber bushes. The oil tank was so heavy that over time the mounting tabs just couldn't carry the load even with a supporting L(90 degree) bracket at bottom of tank also rubber bushed, we all know there was concern for vibration especially in a Triumph. A good engineering practice is the support the weight of the tank on something solid. It seems the way Norley did it is one way but it does illustrate the notion the tank should sit on something. A single post or tube would make me think eventually the weight will punch a hole in the bottom of the tank.

A better way might be to let tank rest against the small diameter cross tube you have on your frame about 2" above the swing axle. I notice so far you are not running a rear fender or a flat panel just ahead of the tire. Instead you have created a curve in the tank itself that I'm sure you matched to the radius of the tire. But similar to the issue with the radius of the front fender the radius of the rear tire although it may be the same as the tire doesn't ever match the radius ( not concentric ) of the tank except at one finite point of the swing of the axle and becasue it is so short draws attention to itself. This is visually competitive. The way you have mounted the top of the tank with an addditional tab (horizontal or some angle ) that will tend to change as tank pulls the tab downward at an angle again visually too busy, if the tab on the frame was bigger and tank thru bolted thru side of tank using your bung feature it would still support the tank (a straight downward hanging load even if the bolt loosened at the top it would still carry the load but the way it is now the tank wants to rotate into the rear wheel with the tanks rear bottom edge coming into contact with tire.

Also your use of the orings aren't really doing their job. My suggestion is to make a thinner, longer tank maybe wider tank that would fit againts the rear of frame to act as fender shield. Although for safety reasons and cleanliness (you will ride in the rain over there, no? I would run a shaped or flat plate to protect oil tank from rocks kicked up by tire and as an innner fender against water. Most Jap bikes have a plastic liner here and use a separate fender above the wheel. I know the cafe look is to throw all this crap away but without a liner you will be cleaning the crap off your oil bag all the time. Making a different shape to the oil tank will do 2 things open up the visual space between the rear cylinder and head and allow easier mounting perch for the oil bag. Currently it looks crowded with tank up against engine and /or hanging out in mid air not to mention its trapezoidal flowing shape. A simpler tank more rectangiular like a flat box of tissues, longer, wider and only 2.5 inches thick, you could still radius the back side but the longer it is, the less curious it will look.

Now finally the piece d'resistance the proper use of the o-rings as rubber bands. The current tabs will tend to cut the o-rings. See attached Norton solution or aftermarket Norton race solution on a revised Norton, simple and elegant. Love your circular bungs at side of tank and with the orings doubled over but around the lower crossover tube just above the swing arm which would hold tank firmly against that tube with a thin strip of rubber in between as anti chafe to anchor tank against frame at bottom and load of tank carried above thru the 2 lugs and tabs on the frame.

An alternative is to use small angle iron as a cup on the same lower crossover rail so the tank rests on it carrrying all the load but also anchored to it by the o-rings. Otherwise Bevelhead, a masterful project so far.
PS
I recieved my Cali II Guzzi from snow country and have a line on the bottom Tonti frame tubes for the conversion, can't wait to see this finished and a restart on your Guzzi project. The race is on !
 

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The oil tank, there is nowhere to rest it upon, unless I strip the bike down and modify the rear engine mount cross member.. which I don't want to do. Also the trad Triton method of holding the oil tank down against the top of the gearbox will transfer more vibration with or without a rubber mat between the two. If I followed that route, what happens when or if one of the rubber straps fails? With my method its a ten second job to replace it, with the trad method, I'd have to remove the rear engine mount, not a quick or easy task.

I do have a 5inch alloy rear mudguard that I may or may not use on the bike, haven't decided yet. If not, I'll still fit some kind of splash guard to protect the back of the alloy oil tank. Its position in the frame is governed by the need to clear the rear exhaust, and the rear tyre at full compression. Its positioned now so that the top surface is parallel to the top frame rails. But again if needed its easy enough to change.

The curve of the rear tyre isn't concentric with the back curve of the oil tank, but I think it still looks better than the original Norley oil tank which was a big angular affair, as seen on the Café racer TV series awhile ago.

Besides most of the photos I've posted have been at knee height, as that looks better, but in reality this is how you'll view the bike, so the rear of the oil tank wont be such an issue if I leave it as is.
 

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Bevelheadmhr,
Short of resting it ON something, I'm saying rest it AGAINST the lower frame tube which is just above the swing arm axle tube so the frame doesn't need to modded but hang it at the top of the tank in the center of the top so its balanced. I agree resting it on the eng. or trans will impart much vibration, so I'm saying to isolate it from the frame. At the top it could be rubber bushed with a lug each side on the frame with a rubber bush so bolt shank hangs in bush(instead of a tab and bolt ) carries whole load and at the bottom just a sliver of rubber where it rests against the x-wise frame tube. Loosen bolts at top use rubber orings to set angle then tighten top bolts. Then its rubber bushed,isolated, no vibration, no torque on mounts and Norton pic says it all. Will oil tank be polished (draws too much attention) or painted (more of a whole, part of the basic chassis?
endeavour to persevere,
OMO
Ross
 
Quick update.. The brake lines and clutch line have been fitted and bled, and all seemed well. My homemade hydraulic clutch conversion felt ok, not that light but usable and I was just happy it worked at all. But soon after the lever went back to the bars.. oh oh, somethings gone wrong.. sure enough the slave piston seal had failed. Not a big surprise, as I had been in two minds about replacing the seal as its came off a twenty year old Ducati Monster. I took the chance it would be ok. Hey ho, got to find an aftermarket seal now. Google suggests a 'Quad ring' O ring design will work better than the OE part. A job for next week. I'm also waiting to hear if the faulty speedo will be replaced foc, fingers crossed it will as it wasn't cheap.

So to cheer myself up, I got a bigger Eaton M112 blower to replace the M90 I already had for another project :)
 

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I have to be honest mate I thought painting the frame black would not look as cool as clearing over that beautiful bronze welding but I have to tell you she came out a beauty. well done. subscribed
 
I did ponder having the frame clear coated for a long time, but I'm happy I went for gloss black in the end. Well, the hydraulic clutch troubles continue. I removed the home made slave cylinder expecting to find it leaking fluid into the Primary case. But surprisingly it was bone dry, no hint of a leak. So I reattached the line and bled it again, off the bike so I could see what was going on. The slave piston moved out as it should when the clutch lever was pulled, but I was then able to push it back in with my thumb. Which shouldn't happen, so the fault lies at the second hand master cylinder not the slave. Its good really, as it means my home made slave cylinder is ok, now need to buy a rebuild kit for the master cylinder. Its from a Honda VTR1000/VFR800 so should be easy to find.
 

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I'm interested in making a hydraulic slave cylinder for my TriBSA. I have a lathe but I'm unsure how to go about the job, how did you get a smooth surface for the bore of the cylinder and what clearance do you need between the cylinder and bore?

BTW are you in the UK? I'm based in Cheltenham.
 
Ref the slave cylinder.. The bore was machined on a lathe, we just copied the diameter of the Brembo slave cylinder I got from a Ducati. Don't have the exact clearance as my mate did the machining while I drank tea and ate all his biscuits lol. Its a smooth as we could manage, he didn't do anything extra than just machining the bore. Looking at the original OE Brembo, its bore isn't glassy smooth, so I guess the seal can deal with any tiny imperfections. The difficult part of making the slave was cutting the big imperial thread to match the primary cover. Couldn't do that so handed over to a local friendly machine shop who did for me for a tenner.

So my advice would be to buy a matching clutch master cylinder/lever and slave from a popular bike (parts easy to get) and either make the original slave cylinder fit the engine (seen this done on Big Twin Evo Harleys), or replicate its dimensions if you decide to make your own. Another option is to keep the original release mechanism but activate it via an hydraulic ram, again seen this done on Suzuki GS1000 and Harley Sportsters (Magura make a kit to do this).

Yes, I'm in the UK, in Cheshire.
 
i've seen a few aftermarket pistons with 2 or 3 o-rings, which keeps the piston off the bore. just need to keep them all lubed.

if you spin the lathe fast and take some light final cuts you should get a nice smooth finish for the bore. i usually linish those early ducati slaves with scotchbrite when i want to clean them out, and it will give a nice finish to an already smooth surface.
 
Been away for awhile, but when I got home the rebuild kit for the clutch master cylinder had arrived, rebuilt it ok but now its proving a pain to bleed, ditto the rear brake. I'll leave it overnight see if it helps.

A bolt which used to hold the foot peg in place by passing through the primary chain case served no purpose, now its got rearsets. So I replaced it with a alloy bung, its slightly tapered, and after a few hours in the freezer, it went in with a few gentle taps. Hopefully it'll stay there..and another 102gms in weight saved!
 

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No, but I was so fed up, I ordered a vacuum kit a few days ago and it arrived today, will give it a try later.
 
And here it is..

Worked ok, except the clear tubing was too big for a bike's bleed nipple (no doubt made to fit a car). Fixed it by pushing a smaller tube inside it and using that. I now have a working front brake and clutch. The clutch pull is suspiciously light, but seems to work ok.

The last task was to bleed the rear brake, soon found that like the second hand clutch master cylinder, the rear brake master was leaking under pressure. One step forward, one step back.
 

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just sayin, but if you can't bleed brakes(that have good condition components) very easily without a vaccum pump you are doing SOMETHING wrong
and it is almost always an improperly bled master
keep up the good work and reporting
 
Brake bleeding can be a real pain in the a$$ sometime, for no good apparent reason.


I’ve come up against the same problem, and came up with the following method for a quick; cost effective way to get them sorted.

Let me just say that bleeding brakes is not one of my favourite jobs and over the years I've invested in a ‘brand name’ brake bleeder which never really worked right, or used the monotonous pump / open bleed nipple / close brake nipple / pump etc etc etc

However I discovered an extremely quick, effective way to bleed the brakes, and guarantee that there are no air bubbles in the lines.

First, get a new bottle of brake fluid, and – here’s the important component - a length of clear tubing that’s a nice snug fit over the bleed nipple and long enough to easily reach the master
cylinder.

Right then, take the top off the brake reservoir, open your nice new bottle of brake fluid and fit one end of the tube over the nipple. Next, thread the remaining tube up to the handle bars with the end near the reservoir (a cable tie to hold it to the upper fairing stay / mirror works a treat.
Start bleeding the brakes in the normal way - a few strokes on the lever then a slow stroke as you crack the nipple open a bit to let the air through. After there's about 150mm of brake fluid in the tube, I didn't have to keep opening and closing the nipple any more.

Carry on pumping the fluid until it’s is almost to the top of the clear tube (being careful not to let the reservoir pump dry), and then a few more pumps of the lever to get the fluid to the end of the hose and then put the end of the hose into the top of the open reservoir, making sure the tube can’t slip back out.

What you now have is continuous bleeding as air cannot enter the tube because it’s under the surface if the fluid level.
You can now crack open the bleed nipple and pump away for several minutes - you'll be surprised how long the small air bubbles take to get all out.
I did this on both sides with a 100% drained front brake system and had them fully bled in 17 minutes - usually I'm swearing at it for at least an hour or so.

Just one note of caution - make sure everything is completely clean with a few well-placed rags to catch and fluid spills.

And the cost of the hose - about $1.50.



As you can see, it works well even if the caliper has two bleed nipples :)

Hope this can help someone save some time and frustration.
 
The bike now has a new rear master cylinder, and a rebuild the clutch m/c (seems everything I bought second hand was worn out lol). I now have a working clutch, smooth but far too heavy. So what's required is a smaller master cylinder or a bigger slave cylinder. The latter was cheapest, so I bought a second hand slave from a Honda VTR Firestorm. Need to make a new mount to fit it to the bike, one where I don't need to mod the slave cylinder itself.

Also saved a whole 100gms by replacing the hefty obsolete foot peg bolt that fits though the primary with a little alloy plug. It spend the night in the freezer before being tapped into place. Hopefully it'll stay there.

It still needs to go on the dyno to set up the ignition timing and jetting, but that will have to wait a few months when my mates dyno shop isn't so busy, and so it can be done for free.

I've already started another project (must be mad).. another HD but something a bit faster this time..
 

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Last update for this year anyway, a couple more pics, taken at a ring of standing stones near me.. I await jokes about ancient monoliths... :)
 

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Sweet build. What are your plans for a fork brace/fender? The only thing wrong with that bike is the pipes come out of the motor on the wrong side and only one carb. ;) Excellent workmanship.
 
I've got an alloy front fender, that's not fitted in the photos, as it doesn't look quiet right.. bit too narrow. The forks are 43mm in thick billet yokes, they don't really need a brace on such a light bike, though I'll probably make one if I don't fit a front guard soon.
 
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