SUZUKI SAVAGE ROADSTER BUILD...
- Thread starter teabowl13
- Start date
flatcurve said:
I understand that. I have mixed feelings about the kit myself, which is why I like what guys like MotoBuddah and RpnSht have done with theirs; it's also why I'm really excited to be doing something more unique and personal with mine.
But then again; I wouldn't be able to do what I am doing if I was on my own. I have a friend helping me who's been building bikes for 10 years, and he has access to a professional shop. If I had stumbled upon a $250 Savage and din't have his help, I might very well be assembling my kit bike right now.
It's also a great way to learn for some of these guys. If you read RpnSht's thread, you'll see that this Ryca is his first build, but now he's on to doing an XS650 bobber, and he's got another XS that he's going to build a Tracker out of. He's doping pretty cool stuff with these bikes for someone who's never done this before...
RYCA; the gateway drug?
john83 said:
I have NO wish to take anything away from RYCA, and if their products get people on the building ladder - great.
We had the same situation here in the UK in the 70's. In the 60's you MADE your parts, got a mate to make them, or bought ex. race track stuff, then knitted it together into something that had your stamp on it.
Then in the 70's "Kit" shops started springing up. Initially supplying parts [ no foul ] but then producing complete kits and then bikes. Let's all be different together and get a mail order Cafe Racer. NOT what the movement was all about in the 50's / 60's.
However, I would be the first to recognise that not everyone has the time or maybe skills [ or friends with skills ] to be able to knit together a "unique" bike.
I would also be the first to admit that up until very recently, I was so blinkered [ trapped ] in a 60's time warp that ALL my bikes turned out as 60's style Cafe Racers ! Nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't satisfy the desire to be different, different - if you know what I mean !
I'm building a BMW Kay Fighter - now I know Fighters are generic, but you don't see too many Kay 100 Fighters.
I'm also trying my hand [ next year ] at a more modern take on the Specials genre using a spare Yamaha TR1.
So, whilst I wouldn't be a buyer of a kit bike - if it gets people out there and building - great.
I'll be the first to say it; I'M JUST A POSER.
I've looked at, and lusted after cool old cafe bikes and such for years. I've been riding mostly crappy cheap old Jap bikes since the Mid-1980's, and I've had my hands on a few cool ones: a pristene '74 CB450, a 1981 Guzzi CX100 that nearly killed me in a tank slapper, a naked '75 Goldwing, and a really cool '76 KZ750 Twin that I very lightly hot-rodded. I loved that bike, but could never find anyone to help me really dial it in, and then it blew up something in the bottom end and was gone...
I'm a modestly competent mechanic at best, and with more than a few full time jobs tugging at my sleeve every day, I'd given up my cafe dreams a while ago. My '92 Nighthawk will NEVER get me laid, but it will certainly get me down the road and back, and that's a lot for me to accomplish these days.
I'm absolutely loving the hell out of every moment of this project; but I know for sure it would be impossible without Jay's very substantial help. I've hardly laid a hand on this thing myself so far (mostly because he's 2 hours south of me in MASS and I just can't get away to get down there...) All I've done is stay up way too late pouring over the RYCA stuff and the other Savage Forum info, and ordering way too much stuff on Ebay, and come up with the conceptual stuff. I can dream it, but I sure can't build it...
THANKS JAY!!
I've looked at, and lusted after cool old cafe bikes and such for years. I've been riding mostly crappy cheap old Jap bikes since the Mid-1980's, and I've had my hands on a few cool ones: a pristene '74 CB450, a 1981 Guzzi CX100 that nearly killed me in a tank slapper, a naked '75 Goldwing, and a really cool '76 KZ750 Twin that I very lightly hot-rodded. I loved that bike, but could never find anyone to help me really dial it in, and then it blew up something in the bottom end and was gone...
I'm a modestly competent mechanic at best, and with more than a few full time jobs tugging at my sleeve every day, I'd given up my cafe dreams a while ago. My '92 Nighthawk will NEVER get me laid, but it will certainly get me down the road and back, and that's a lot for me to accomplish these days.
I'm absolutely loving the hell out of every moment of this project; but I know for sure it would be impossible without Jay's very substantial help. I've hardly laid a hand on this thing myself so far (mostly because he's 2 hours south of me in MASS and I just can't get away to get down there...) All I've done is stay up way too late pouring over the RYCA stuff and the other Savage Forum info, and ordering way too much stuff on Ebay, and come up with the conceptual stuff. I can dream it, but I sure can't build it...
THANKS JAY!!
ben2go
Two Wheel Projectile
I'll say this and no more jacking this thread for me.
I understand the kit bikes and the reason people purchase them.Test fit,tear down,paint,and reassemble.Most can do it with no imagination and a general understanding of how motorcycles work and are assembled.It's a good way to get into building but to me that is not bike building.That is bike assembling.
I'm done now.Thanks for listening to my brief rant.
I understand the kit bikes and the reason people purchase them.Test fit,tear down,paint,and reassemble.Most can do it with no imagination and a general understanding of how motorcycles work and are assembled.It's a good way to get into building but to me that is not bike building.That is bike assembling.
I'm done now.Thanks for listening to my brief rant.
ben2go said:
I don't mind talking about RYCA here. Like I said; for me, I didn't want to do what they are doing, but the fact that they have done it, and posted up almost all of their technical knowhow for the public to see (If you go to their site, they have PDF documents and full instructional videos that anyone can download that take you through their conversion step-by-step... that's pretty cool for what they are doing.) has made it a lot easier for me to be able to figure out what I want to do with my own project here, and it has inspired me for sure, even if it has inspired me to go in a different direction with some of it...
Their Kits are ready to go, almost bolt-on, and I don't think anyone out there who is "assembling" one is really thinking that they are on the same level as anyone who is building their own bike from scratch. I don't hold that against them. Just as I don't have any beef with guys who restore old bikes to a totally stock form when I personally might be inclined to fiddle with it instead. I don't hold it against anyone who buys a bike new and just plain old rides the tires off of it without doing anything to alter it at all.
This here mighty-mighty Inter-webs has a home for all of those folks.
DTT is a great home for cafe-racer builders, and folks who like to watch (like me...)
PEACE OUT! says the hippy drippy guy who drank too much coffee this morning...
crackerman
Been Around the Block
Teabowl interesting build.
Where you at in MA. I'm located up in North shore, Wakefield.
Where you at in MA. I'm located up in North shore, Wakefield.
teabowl13 said:
That's another reason why I don't hate on 'em. I never thought that the barrier to entry for owning a cool motorcycle was that you had to be able to hand forge every part yourself. Hell, the majority of the parts that most people put on their bikes were bought from somewhere. Nobody fabricates everything.
crackerman said:
Thanks Man! I'm looking forward to the next stages.
We are at a pause right now; my buddy Jay has other stuff to do before he can get back to my bike, but hopefully by next week I'll have some new pictures from him.
The hardest part of this is that I live in Portland, Maine, but He's working on my bike two hours south; outside of Worcester, Mass.
I just wish I could get down there and get my own hands dirty more easily...
Hoosier Daddy
Earache my eye...
Just found this thread and want to keep up to date!
NICE!
NICE!
Now I know I've lost my mind...
Contemplating a Mono-shock conversion.
Anyone wanna chime in on this??
I'm thinking a CBR600 shock might be just the trick; the size is right; most are too long for the space I have to work with. Since the geometry and such are all very different, I just have no idea how to know if the spring rate or spring travel is right or even close; I'm basically just guessing...
But I think I can squeeze it in there...
Contemplating a Mono-shock conversion.
Anyone wanna chime in on this??
I'm thinking a CBR600 shock might be just the trick; the size is right; most are too long for the space I have to work with. Since the geometry and such are all very different, I just have no idea how to know if the spring rate or spring travel is right or even close; I'm basically just guessing...
But I think I can squeeze it in there...
Whooooaaa back boy. You can't just whizz any shock off one bike and slap it on another, just because "it fits" !!!!!!
For a start the valving and inner construction of the shock has been designed to work in a certain application, which means leverages as well. Shorter leverage pivot points usually mean the shocker mut be more robust. Just take a look at the average modern Superbike shock / spring.
The spring rate will almost certainly be totally wrong.
That said - IF the angle of operation for the original shock placement is similar to what you're proposing - then maybe it has a chance. Remember the more you lay a shock over from verticle - the "softer" the spring becomes.
I had a customer who took a shock from a modern Triumph Triple to fit his BMW K100. It physically fit, but went down the road like a pogo stick !
Your stock Twinshock arrangement will probably have springs in the 75 lbs range - maybe a little softer as the bike was originally aimed at the armchair crowd. However, that doesn't mean you replace them with a 150 lbs Monoshock.
As far as travel goes - a typical monoshock with a short leverage pivot will have far less travel than a Twinshock.
When we designed the rear shock arrangement for the Scorpio trike we're developing, a shock mounted in the traditional place, gave us an 800lbs spring and 1" of compression travel [ 2" o/all ]. When we came up with the current arrangement, the spring rate was reduced to 400lbs and we had literally as much travel as we wanted - pegged to 4" o/a.
I'll flag some pix up later to illustrate the point.
BTW - there are several good books of referrence out there dealing with motorcycle suspension.
Of course anything is possible - if you have the will.
If in any doubt, go back to the old see-saw leverage diagrams you did at school to point you in the right direction - good luck !
For a start the valving and inner construction of the shock has been designed to work in a certain application, which means leverages as well. Shorter leverage pivot points usually mean the shocker mut be more robust. Just take a look at the average modern Superbike shock / spring.
The spring rate will almost certainly be totally wrong.
That said - IF the angle of operation for the original shock placement is similar to what you're proposing - then maybe it has a chance. Remember the more you lay a shock over from verticle - the "softer" the spring becomes.
I had a customer who took a shock from a modern Triumph Triple to fit his BMW K100. It physically fit, but went down the road like a pogo stick !
Your stock Twinshock arrangement will probably have springs in the 75 lbs range - maybe a little softer as the bike was originally aimed at the armchair crowd. However, that doesn't mean you replace them with a 150 lbs Monoshock.
As far as travel goes - a typical monoshock with a short leverage pivot will have far less travel than a Twinshock.
When we designed the rear shock arrangement for the Scorpio trike we're developing, a shock mounted in the traditional place, gave us an 800lbs spring and 1" of compression travel [ 2" o/all ]. When we came up with the current arrangement, the spring rate was reduced to 400lbs and we had literally as much travel as we wanted - pegged to 4" o/a.
I'll flag some pix up later to illustrate the point.
BTW - there are several good books of referrence out there dealing with motorcycle suspension.
Of course anything is possible - if you have the will.
If in any doubt, go back to the old see-saw leverage diagrams you did at school to point you in the right direction - good luck !
beachcomber said:
Yeah, I'm realizing more and more about all of this, and I realize even more full well that I have no idea what I'm doing....
Fortunately, I am working with guys who really do know their stuff, and if it's just too too much, then I'll revert to the original plan. I'm mostly just thinking out loud.
That said, I'm having great fun learning about all of this stuff, and I really appreciate the input.
Any resources you can send my way, I'm totally open to, and I'd love to check out...
Cheers!
Teabowl,
No foul for wanting to be different, if you want to pm me after Crimble, I'll let you have some ball park info. that might help.
However, if you have some tame suspension guys around , they will know what to suggest. If you have access to the Foale and Willoughby book on the subject that's a good starter for 10. "Motorcycle Chassis Design - the theory and practice" Been out of print for decades, but is still regarded as the bible. Expect to pay silly money if you track a copy down on E-Bay wherever. Originally £6.95 [ $10 ?], I had to replace my original copy a few years ago and had to pay £20 ! [ $50? ]
I'll flag up the 2 pix as promised to illustrate the leverage / pivot point vs shock spring selection. Picture is worth etc ..................
Here they are - 1st pic with Red spring was an early prototype - still using the original alloy driveshaft tube cut'n shut.
2nd pic. with the mounting of the shock horizontal and carefully designed leverages we ended up with a spring half the rate of the Red one and over twice the useful travel.
No foul for wanting to be different, if you want to pm me after Crimble, I'll let you have some ball park info. that might help.
However, if you have some tame suspension guys around , they will know what to suggest. If you have access to the Foale and Willoughby book on the subject that's a good starter for 10. "Motorcycle Chassis Design - the theory and practice" Been out of print for decades, but is still regarded as the bible. Expect to pay silly money if you track a copy down on E-Bay wherever. Originally £6.95 [ $10 ?], I had to replace my original copy a few years ago and had to pay £20 ! [ $50? ]
I'll flag up the 2 pix as promised to illustrate the leverage / pivot point vs shock spring selection. Picture is worth etc ..................
Here they are - 1st pic with Red spring was an early prototype - still using the original alloy driveshaft tube cut'n shut.
2nd pic. with the mounting of the shock horizontal and carefully designed leverages we ended up with a spring half the rate of the Red one and over twice the useful travel.
That's some mighty fancy footwork, Sir!
And way beyond my prowess, but YES, I do indeed have good folks to work with.
The guy who's doing my actual building works for a shop near me that builds a lot of ground-up custom bikes, and they have done a lot of mono-shock frames. He's been tossing my ideas over to his boss who does all of the fabricating. I'll find out what he thinks after the holidays.
I'm very prepared for them to tell me no. I'm fine with that.
I've been thinking about some simple ways to get a little more leverage, but in the end, I know I'm not the guy to take on some sort of home-spun engineering project.
These guys have already figured out that the Flea-bay shocks I bought will be too weak, and they have new springs to replace the black ones with.
I'll get back to you for that info if these guys sound like they are at all interested in attempting this...
Merry Chrispies!!
And way beyond my prowess, but YES, I do indeed have good folks to work with.
The guy who's doing my actual building works for a shop near me that builds a lot of ground-up custom bikes, and they have done a lot of mono-shock frames. He's been tossing my ideas over to his boss who does all of the fabricating. I'll find out what he thinks after the holidays.
I'm very prepared for them to tell me no. I'm fine with that.
I've been thinking about some simple ways to get a little more leverage, but in the end, I know I'm not the guy to take on some sort of home-spun engineering project.
These guys have already figured out that the Flea-bay shocks I bought will be too weak, and they have new springs to replace the black ones with.
I'll get back to you for that info if these guys sound like they are at all interested in attempting this...
Merry Chrispies!!
THANKS PETE!
I've always had a fondness for those GS450E's I think they are too often over-looked.
I met a guy once, many many years ago, who rode one from Ohio to Colorado non-stop in half the time it should have taken him, legally. He got to the track at 3am, spent the next several hours prepping it; raced it all weekend, and then rode home on it...
I can't remember his name, but he went on to be some sort of US national racing champion...
I've always had a fondness for those GS450E's I think they are too often over-looked.
I met a guy once, many many years ago, who rode one from Ohio to Colorado non-stop in half the time it should have taken him, legally. He got to the track at 3am, spent the next several hours prepping it; raced it all weekend, and then rode home on it...
I can't remember his name, but he went on to be some sort of US national racing champion...
