DO THE TON

Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Projects => Cafe Racers => Topic started by: PHeller on Aug 23, 2010, 23:18:59

Title: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Aug 23, 2010, 23:18:59
Just picked this up. Almost all original parts, but not the original exhaust  :(  - I vow to finish this bike with a sweeping 4-1 exhaust.

I got a spare tank, footpegs, lights, etc.

Currently, the bike doesn't idle or go faster than 15mph.

PREVIOUS OWNER REPLACED OR SERVICED OR FUCTED UP: Fork seals, valve springs?, K&N pods, MAC 4-1 Exhaust, mini rear light, superbike bars, cleaned and rebuilt carbs with below mentioned "mods", replaced key cylinder, reupholstered seat (nicely), new (crappy) throttle and clutch cables (that are crappy).

CARBS: Previous owner drilled "one size up" on a set of drill bits. I have no idea what that means. Needless to say I think the stock jets are kafucted. I'll replace with a set of #85, as I've read that is what is necessary for pod filters alone.

EXHAUST: Previous owner scrapped the original exhaust this past week, deeming it "too beat up to keep"....I disagreed...but the current exhaust is a MAC piece in ceramic coat black. It's not overly loud, so I can't see it changing the flow (or jetting) that much. Hell, it might flow WORSE than stock. Disappointed about this one.

ELECTRICS: Everything works...strangely enough...but the wiring is a rat's nest of wire nuts and electrical tape. Random wires are cut places, and others groups of wires are all connected together. The starter wire is all on its own...running around the bike like someone lost track of the original wire and decided to run their own.

I got all of this for a few hundred bucks.

My inspiration?

Woody's CL350
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3453/3866075760_a6d3a12142_b.jpg)

I'm thinking low, sleek, and built for style, not for speed. I might actually get ahold of a CL360 front wheel with drum, and a few other "back dated" parts.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport (no pics, no progress, read if you want to help)
Post by: Kanticoy on Aug 24, 2010, 03:34:50
Post a pic of her up. I have always wanted to see what a MAC setup looked like. It actually has a better collecter on the pipes than stock so i imagine it would be a good candidate for a race exhaust depending on the can....just curious what they look like. I'll help any way I can. Put her as close to stock as possible and go from there first....especially on the carbs.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport (no pics, no progress, read if you want to help)
Post by: PHeller on Aug 24, 2010, 11:33:43
Well I can't go too stock because of limiting funds.

The condition of the stock air box rubbers is such that I'm tempted to stick with the pods. You may disagree. I'll post pics of the box.

Replacing the exhaust would be a mad expensive proposition, so I'll re-jet according to a better flowing exhaust. Maybe a 90 main? No idea on the low speed jet.

Electrics really worry me. I'll post some pics of that mess, because I'll really need some help there. The funny thing is, as hacked up as the wiring is, the bike still runs.

I rode it down the street and back, shifted all gears, clutch worked, brakes worked...all just very slowly.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport (no pics, no progress, read if you want to help)
Post by: Kanticoy on Aug 24, 2010, 12:20:41
Oh no, I didn't mean make the bike back to stock, I meant put the jetting back to stock.  I run velocity stacks on my 400f with a MC Again header, and I upped one jet size for the pipes, one for the velos.  I just mean, get rid of the shoddy jets and put good ones in.  Rule of thumb is one size for pods, one for exhaust....gets you pretty close to ball park.  Do a plug read and see how they're looking...my guess is fouled.  And the floats in these little guys LOVE to stick and puke fuel.  Get you some anti seize from the auto parts store and put it on the float pin when your putting your jets in.  It really helps.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport (no pics, no progress, read if you want to help)
Post by: PHeller on Aug 24, 2010, 12:29:57
What jets are you running? #85? or 90? Stock is 75 I believe.

What about the idle jets? Up or down or no change?

Any pics of yours, Kanti?
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport (no pics, no progress, read if you want to help)
Post by: Big Rich on Aug 24, 2010, 14:37:04
As far as the wiring harness goes: if it's just TOO bad, im sure you could get one from a similar bike and just compare the wiring diagrams for each. They should be almost the exact same (just guessing)
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Aug 24, 2010, 22:24:13
Clutch actuator lever is messed up. Clutch is also very stiff. One broken bolt/stud and the other is missing.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0306.jpg)
What lies under the tank.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0305.jpg)
Wiring mess.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0303.jpg)
Lots of work needed.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0294.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0293.jpg)


I tried starting it again tonight. After about 20 kicks it lit up, but would only run under 1/2 throttle or more. Won't rev more than 2,000 rpm, no matter how much throttle.

Won't idle.

Plugs are wet.

I tried timing it as best as I could, but I don't have a timing light so I have no idea on how close that is.

Didn't check the advancing unit, that's tomorrows project. After that, its onto the carbs.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: teazer on Aug 25, 2010, 01:03:37
That's not a bad start.  The wiring may look like it's guts are hanging out like it committed hari kari, but really I's just untidy. That should be easy to tidy up.

Seat is a good place to start but it needs some sort of rear fender.  The symptoms sound like jets clogged in the carbs, but we don't know how good the motor is or how old the plugs are. Start with giving a good clean and service it.  Clean the carbs, fit good new plugs, check for a fat spark from both coils check compression while the plugs are oput and set the tappets.

Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Aug 26, 2010, 22:12:52
Ok, so I got the carbs off tonight, which was pretty easy, and I was disappointed at what I found.

The bowls must have been leaking on the previous owner, so he used some sort of sealant to seal them...only it didn't harden and turned to a gooey mess inside my bowls.

So here's the run down:

External Condition: Good, most screws come loose pretty easily. Everything seems to be there including hoses. Discovered PO must have switched the throttle because it only had one cable. There is no return cable on the carb.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0314.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0316.jpg)

Bowls: Gunky with gook. Drain screws were extremely tight (probably because of gunk), and one I couldn't get out...I actually rounded a flathead screw...
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0309.jpg)

Main Jets: Marred and gouged, clogged and two had really messed up seals. They don't appear to be drilled, but who knows.

Pilots: clogged, but otherwise fine.

Carb body (inside bowl): I'm seeing some pitting on the #4 jet holder thing. Is this a problem?
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0315.jpg)

Floats: Here is where I noticed a big question. The float has a nick in it. Are these solid floats? Does this nick keep it from floating?
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0313.jpg)

Throats and slides: Both look good. Some little nicks on the slides, but nothing serious...I think.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0319.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0321.jpg)






Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: BigBSBusa on Aug 26, 2010, 23:53:27
Comin' together.  Carbs are always a tough thing.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Aug 28, 2010, 13:46:02
Last night:

Put carb back together without new jets (crappy seals), without new float bowl seals (let them soak in brake fluid) and aside from a good cleaning, pretty the way it came to me.

Today:

Beautiful morning, so I set off to get some spark plugs.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/IMG_0531.jpg)

Get back to the shop, pull the plugs...and find this...

On the left, you'll see a D7EA, D8EA, and then a DR8EA. On the right are the new plugs after idling the bike and running for about 5 minutes with a quick trip down the block.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/IMG_0530.jpg)

Yes, you read that, the bike IDLED for a few minutes. I tried running up the street, but it was really bogging. However, it did rev past 6,000 rpm, so this is IMPROVEMENT.

The bowls didn't leak, the bike didn't smoke much considering it condition, and it actually revved like a normal bike.

After running for about 10 minutes the bike wouldn't start again, I think I either flooded it or the jets got clogged again.

So the carbs will come back off, get recleaned, and new jets will be installed. Then we'll try again.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: Tim on Aug 28, 2010, 14:01:50
At least now you're running the right plugs :)  You don't want 'R' plugs as they add unnecessary resistance and weaken the spark.

If you're running a fancy electronic ignition, then you want 5K ohm resistor spark plug boots, which often come with the ignitions.  Then for sure you don't want R plugs as you've doubled the resistance.

Plugs look better but perhaps a bit 'clean' especially from just idling.  Make sure it's not running too lean.

All that being said - don't sweat the carbs / plugs yet.

1 - valve clearances - set these correctly with engine cold
2 - timing - static timing adjustment with test light - also check points condition/gap too
3 - spark plugs - new plugs properly gapped
4 - fuel supply - clean and fresh
5 - air supply - new air filter / clean it

Now you can start the bike and fiddle with carbs.  Unless you've done all the 'mechanical' work above first, all the carb work in the world isn't going to help and will end up needing to be redone.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Aug 28, 2010, 14:20:28
Everything above I've done aside from valve clearances.

The intake might affect the running performance, but it won't keep it from running. That's the problem now. It turns over, it fires occasionally, but its not running. I didn't change anything after 10 minutes of it running on its own.

I think the jets that have torn or messed up seals, and the fact there was so much shit in the carbs, probably means there is still major issues with the fuel delivery.

I need to get a feeler gauge.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: teazer on Aug 28, 2010, 15:16:14
Somehow I managed to miss teh reference to the PO drilling the jets out.  The chances of him getting that right are about the same chance as winning the lottery.

Those carbs look more or less OK.  Make sure all the small drillings are flowing the same from one carb to the next. I use a can of carb/brake cleaner and blast it down a passageway on carb 1 and then i do the same passage on #2, #3 and #4.  That way if one is even slightly clogged I can see the comparison.

While they are apart, take the time to check and adjust the float valves. And then adjust the slow speed air/mixture screws.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: KrashManhatten on Aug 29, 2010, 09:45:44
Everything above I've done aside from valve clearances.

The intake might affect the running performance, but it won't keep it from running. That's the problem now. It turns over, it fires occasionally, but its not running. I didn't change anything after 10 minutes of it running on its own.

I think the jets that have torn or messed up seals, and the fact there was so much shit in the carbs, probably means there is still major issues with the fuel delivery.

I need to get a feeler gauge.

Not that every one has a problem with the electrics, but make sure the battery is good too, as a weak battery will simulate screwd up carbs.

Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Aug 29, 2010, 10:50:33
Well I had it hooked up to a car battery for testing and it still gave me a no-run.

Seriously...the seals around the jets are fubarred. Torn and all else. I know the main jets are a definite problem. Whether the main jets are keeping it from running, I'm not sure, but I'll have to pull off the carb to see if any of the sealant used by the PO is still floating around the passages.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Aug 31, 2010, 13:41:05
I've noticed the rear tail seems to have had the stock signal threads stripped out and new holes (i think) drilled next to them, which is a bummer.

Anyone with a CB400F want to post a picture of the tail section of frame?
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Oct 02, 2010, 18:50:17
New jets in, I used 85s. Runs pretty good. Idle is surging a bit, but hey...its idling. It also has a very snappy throttle response (despite the throttle wire being rusty).

Now it's gotta be taken apart and fit into the back of my station wagon for its journey north.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: Erskine on Oct 02, 2010, 20:45:47
Dumb question but have you thoroughly flushed the fuel tank out?
The crap in old tanks is incredible. I've found logs, boulders, shopping trolleys, strange petroleum dwelling fish.
You never know whats in there.
 ;)
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Oct 02, 2010, 22:44:14
True, but I've got an inline stone filter on the line, so its getting clean gas...but necessarily "good" gas.

I think I've got a sync issue.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Nov 23, 2010, 10:17:50
UPDATE:

Ended up not being able to get into my station wagon securely. It wanted to roll around in side the car, even with the wheels off. Not only that, but at the time my wagon's springs were severely damaged, and the car was riding on the bumpstops.

So I waited...and saved...

and after 3 months of my motorcycle sitting in pieces (wheels off, forks off, engine in frame)...

I bought a trailer! A 70's Holsclaw 3-Rail Motorcycle Trailer.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Nov 29, 2010, 14:34:27
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0027.jpg)

So after nearly 500 miles, 5 stops, one blown tire, the Holsclaw managed to get my CB400F and about 400lbs of stuff from one side of PA to the other (Philly to Erie).

The girlfriend's T-Bird had no problems with the towing, although the suspension could have been better.

The trailer's flat tire was a result of rapid deterioration of the right side tire. I suspect an alignment issue, as the axle appears to have been repaired and the tire was at a fairly low air pressure, yet wore through the cords in the center of the tread.

Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Nov 29, 2010, 14:49:48
So this is where I'm at.

1) I know the bike runs. I had it running, riding (badly), and idling (badly), but it ran!
2) The carbs are now in good shape, but need synced probably. I benched synced them but who knows how close that is.
3) Electricals are all over the place, see below.

So lets start:

Wire nuts on the ignition/key cylinder and on the right side switch wiring (starter button).
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0028.jpg)

The key cylinder uses different colored wiring, I'd like to redo the plug for OEM wiring.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0033.jpg)

Four wires into one wire nut...and only one wire out? PO didn't know how to hook up the three-way cut-off switch and the start button...
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0038.jpg)

From brown to black...is this normal?
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0039.jpg)

I have no idea where to start with any of this:
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0029.jpg)

I could really use some ideas on what to do with the relays and junk at the back of the bike...they are just hanging loose in there. Some of them look old and questionable as well...

Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Dec 01, 2010, 17:12:53
Cleaning stuff up, despite it being messy outside.

Previous owner purchased a newer Voltage Regulator/Rectifier Combo, but didn't utilize the Regulator. I'd like to try to use the new unit to minimize the amount of wiring running around, but didn't want to remove the old regulator mounting tabs. Solution:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/DSC_0050.jpg)

I've gotta start construction of a work bench in my basement, because its getting too cold outside to spend much time outside, plus there is no rush to have the bike on the road until Spring.

How she sits currently:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/DSC_0045.jpg)
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: IndieSol on Dec 01, 2010, 18:57:28
Nothing to add other than I'm enjoying the thread.  Keep it coming!
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: VonYinzer on Dec 01, 2010, 19:12:02
+1... Keep it up. Let us know if ya need anything.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: sxecafe on Dec 01, 2010, 19:42:10
good job man... like the quality of the pics too!
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Dec 01, 2010, 21:10:59
Still need a RH switch/cable assembly. Start button and On/Off Three way switch for CB360, 400/4, 550/4, 750/4.

I'm thinking of going with a Kit's headlight tabs, ditch the stock indicator lights for some sort of smaller light bar.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: jeff4uk on Dec 09, 2010, 13:24:19
Keep up the good work man , I built a CB400/4 this year to and had all the same probs as you
my threads on page 6 CB400/4 UK build,
The wholes at the back of the frame hold brackets that then hold the indicators!!!
I took the wiring loom off and re-built it following the manual,
your carbs look ten times better then mine,If your keeping the mesh filters,85 main jet, turn air screws out two turns,
A good earth is a MUST,Also check the Auto advence behind the points and fit NEW points and condencers
Anything you need just ask i will keep watching  ;D
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Feb 17, 2011, 20:54:21
Now that the temps here in Northwest PA are starting to rise above freezing I think I should start ordering some stuff.


I've got a Wishlist 5 items long (and $200 deep) on Dime City Cycle, and probably will hit up Vintage CB750 for electrical connections.


I'm not going to purchase from Dime City until I've got the wiring all figured out, restored, and reinstalled.


So here's my question of the day:


Should I remove the engine while the wiring is out? I don't have a stand, I don't have a work bench, and I don't have a buffer. I don't really have a reason to remove it, but it would make cleaning it easier.


My thinking is to get the bike on the road this summer then go back and clean it up once I know the running condition.


I'm also thinking that I might start looking for a replacement engine, depending on price.


Advice?
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: Erskine on Feb 17, 2011, 21:14:41
I'd clean it in situ for now. Sounds like keeping it in the frame will give you the best engine stand.
If you liberally soak it with a cleansing agent and keep on working away at the crap over a period of time it'll come good. Polishing the bollocks out of it will not make it any more reliable or reconditioned ;)
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: joe-nh on Feb 17, 2011, 21:22:03
Hey man, i'm glad i found this thread! i;ve got the same bike as you and have been having the carb issues you've been describing. thanks for the help everybody. good luck with the build i'll be checkin in.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Mar 04, 2011, 11:31:24
Update March 2011:


I've made progress on putting the harness back to stock, including cleaning up the electrical panel and going to a modern fuse setup.


Once I get the harness back in place my hope is to try starting the bike again. It may be difficult now that my carbs have sat off the bike for close to 5 months.


My hope is that with the bike back to mostly stock setup, it'll run well enough to check the condition of the engine, then start modifying in a given direction.
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: lassenc on Mar 04, 2011, 15:31:54
The wiring on old bikes can be a real pain. I was/am in the same situation as you, burned wires, wires soldered together badly, nonsense splicing etc.

But on the other hand, when fixing it, it's nice to know that what you are doing only makes the bike in a better condition than it was before. If you are not comfortable with wiring it might be an idea to look for a new harness, price depending.

Get heatshrink in various sizes, connectors and spare wire, tin and a soldering iron, it'll be worth it if you're going ahead.

Good luck on the project!
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Mar 05, 2011, 15:29:04
thanks for the support. I probably will get a soldering iron and some equipment for that as well.


Worked on some Photoshop concepts today. I'm rather impressed. Which do you prefer?


Concept 2: Cafe?


Concept 3: Tracker?
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Mar 26, 2011, 22:02:46
Stock harness...it was nice knowing you. Let the surgery begin!


(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0464.jpg)
Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on Apr 02, 2011, 20:12:18
Wiring is done, at least for now. Gotta get this thing running, aesthetics can come later...


(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/PHeller/1977%20Honda%20CB400F/DSC_0283-1.jpg)



Title: Re: 1977 CB400F Super Sport "Give Up"
Post by: PHeller on May 16, 2011, 09:44:51
Sold to Big Rich.


Follow its progress here. (http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=25085.msg283256#msg283256)

Moving on to XS650.