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Turn your Brain Off and Shoot the Shit => Loungin at da club => Topic started by: jag767 on Aug 02, 2017, 21:03:21

Title: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 02, 2017, 21:03:21
So a buddy of mine and I are feeling out starting a parts line, all CNC and 3D printed stuff. We are designing a whole bunch of things, some of which there are already versions available, and others are parts that simply can't be found. 

My question is, what parts would you guys like to see produced? I'm not sure we can do all of them, but we can at least make designs and get pricing on each one. Also, the bigger run of parts, obviously the better the pricing. Right now we are working on parts for cb350, cb550, cb750, and cbx, since those are available to us for test fitting.

Please give any and all input, thanks!

Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 02, 2017, 21:22:14
Here is a top triple clamp design we are working on. Can do for any bike, but this one is for cb350. Will also have a second version with cutouts.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 02, 2017, 21:33:47
And with cutouts
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: LightsOut on Aug 03, 2017, 04:28:50
Looks great! Maybe a "winged" top triple? Lots of people running modern forks and ground clearance is an issue so a product like that would be awesome.


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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 03, 2017, 11:19:45
Looks great! Maybe a "winged" top triple? Lots of people running modern forks and ground clearance is an issue so a product like that would be awesome.


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As long as enough wants it for a specific front end sure. We are working on some really nice fork braces right now.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Sav0r on Aug 03, 2017, 11:32:45
Sounds cool, do you plan to manufacture in house or send it out?
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 03, 2017, 12:04:17
Sounds cool, do you plan to manufacture in house or send it out?

In the short term we will do the prototyping in house and send out the orders. 
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: SONIC. on Aug 03, 2017, 12:34:54
Not to be discouraging, but from a money perspective make sure you have real interest before you commit to buy many thousands of dollars worth of parts.
CNC stuff is pricey, and the vast majority of the folks here don't buy it.
Look at cognitomoto they are doing great but no one here runs their parts because they are very very pricey.
There certainly is a market, but dtt is not it.
Your target is people with more money than sense, or willing to pay dearly for high quality stuff. Remember that every bike comes with a triple tree, it's not a need item, it's a want item. Those that build high end enough bikes to want/need a billet triple can generally make their own.

Just a word of caution, as I've seen quite a few try this over the years and only cognitomoto has succeeded as far as I can tell. And that was thanks to marketing and luck getting in with famous people.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: SONIC. on Aug 03, 2017, 12:36:56
Also note that if you're not making the parts in house you are having to cover 2 full profit margins. On a small order that is going to either  decimate your profit, or skyrocket your prices.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Rider52 on Aug 03, 2017, 13:30:09
Consider your competition the their pricing for like items.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 03, 2017, 13:42:58
We spent some time hashing out numbers. Even In lower quantity we can make it work. I think there's more need for items simply not produced, which is where a bulk of our products will be to start. 3d printed fenders, fork braces,  3d printed side covers, perhaps with an updated design. Starting to see side covers become more popular again, and that's easy stuff to make. We are working on a custom set of drum hubs also, obviously that would be a lower quantity item, but there's an ass for every seat. Regular disk hubs are also in line.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Sav0r on Aug 03, 2017, 13:52:44
Also, not to be discouraging (for reals, I have a small CNC VMC and plan to build a CNC lathe center soon), but startup on these types of things can really pull a small crew down. In my case the crew is just one, but when I have issues that need troubleshooting or am just getting unsatisfactory results production grinds to an absolute halt. When I want to upgrade a system or make a major process change production grinds to a halt. And if you don't have things to sell but man hours are racking up it's especially hard to generate cash flow. Now granted, I don't do bulk orders or processes and have little desire to do so, but the point is that you are going to pay either way. Whether you pay a pro or you do it yourself there is a cost and it's probably higher than you think it is or higher than you think it's going to be. Then add sales, customer service, accounting, etc. on top of designing parts, running machines, maintaining a shop, eating, sleeping 3 or 4 hours a day, and it's not too long until things get pretty old. Conversely, if you do it for fun and turn customers away as you see fit you can avoid a lot of those stresses.

That said, I think there is a niche in there somewhere. I'd just try to establish that niche before investing too much time and money.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 03, 2017, 16:56:35
Best of luck to you, Jag.

Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 03, 2017, 17:03:15
Hardest thing for me, when I started building bike parts, was learning where I could charge more, and where I had to charge less than I want.

If you're the only one making something, make up for charging less for some other stuff there.

If you're trying to do your own variation of something common, price it competitively, or a bit less, and sell more. Downside to that, is more time committed. On the flip side, sell more, bigger runs, materials cost less per the more you buy.

Delicate balance.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Tune-A-Fishİ on Aug 03, 2017, 19:43:16
I think the CB SOHC is fading, seems the  KZ and GS bikes are gaining again and the singles in any configuration. The gull wing top clamp for GSXR and R6/1 is a good idea for sure.


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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: crazypj on Aug 03, 2017, 21:32:47
A double sided TLS brake similar to Suzuki GT750 would be nice but I think material costs and 'wastage' will make costs prohibitive unless you could get precision castings/forgings? (Hub is known to crack so could be a replacement market?)
You would need to be competitive with Fontana, Brembo, Grimica et.al
As for USD forks, they are pretty standardised diameters and only a few manufacturers for streetbikes (Showa, Ohlins, Kayaba) so a 'stock' size could be used with facility to bore 1mm~3mm oversize? Market is pretty large as they can replace stock item just for 'bling'
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 03, 2017, 23:19:09
A double sided TLS brake similar to Suzuki GT750 would be nice but I think material costs and 'wastage' will make costs prohibitive unless you could get precision castings/forgings? (Hub is known to crack so could be a replacement market?)
You would need to be competitive with Fontana, Brembo, Grimica et.al
As for USD forks, they are pretty standardised diameters and only a few manufacturers for streetbikes (Showa, Ohlins, Kayaba) so a 'stock' size could be used with facility to bore 1mm~3mm oversize? Market is pretty large as they can replace stock item just for 'bling'


You're thinking  the same way i am with a 4ls setup. I think it can certainly be done, maybe with a little better design. I love drums, and wouldnt mind putting some serious time into a killer piece. I know i wont sell a lot, but it would be damn cool.

Thank you everone for your input thus far. As we have parts designed I will keep updating this as well.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 03, 2017, 23:20:30
There is a chap in the Phillipines building TD hubs. He list them up at close to $2K, and they sell immediately, every time.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 03, 2017, 23:33:32
There is a chap in the Phillipines building TD hubs. He list them up at close to $2K, and they sell immediately, every time.

Thats very interesting. If I could even run 10 the price wouldn't be half bad I think. If I were to have parts cast I'd have to sell a ton of them, but I could really get the price down.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 03, 2017, 23:41:52
Thats very interesting. If I could even run 10 the price wouldn't be half bad I think. If I were to have parts cast I'd have to sell a ton of them, but I could really get the price down.

He's casting them in house.

I've considered doing billet. I just don't have the time.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 03, 2017, 23:55:44
He's casting them in house.

I've considered doing billet. I just don't have the time.

Thats a lot of hours, but doable. I figure out of billet it's still under 2k no problem.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Brodie on Aug 04, 2017, 04:24:41
Xv1100 side covers. They are notorious for falling off and are not cheap for a new set.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Karlloss on Aug 05, 2017, 03:34:44
Spoked hubs are something that are hard to find for modern USD front ends. Shouldn't be as hard to machine as a top yolk (triple tree in US English). I wish my mill was CNC. At least I have a mill and make my own parts. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170805/00335c49309bb413b1ceabd41e5576aa.jpg)


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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 05, 2017, 08:20:11
Milling your own top clamp is awesome. I'm looking to offer some heavy 3d machining that right now no one is producing, mainly because of cost i think.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 05, 2017, 08:21:17
Oh and we are offering the spanner nut under thr triple in stainless also. The original ones are nasty!
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Karlloss on Aug 05, 2017, 08:22:21
Not criticising your plan, hell I wish I had the opportunity to set up a cnc shop. 

I think spoked hubs is the gap in the market.


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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 05, 2017, 08:34:03
Not criticising your plan, hell I wish I had the opportunity to set up a cnc shop. 

I think spoked hubs is the gap in the market.


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Those are easy, we are designing them too!
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: clem on Aug 05, 2017, 11:17:37
Oh and we are offering the spanner nut under thr triple in stainless also. The original ones are nasty!
I think that things like this are a good way to get the ball rolling. The little things that usually aren't cost effective to have re-plated (only one piece) but stick out on a build and make it look half done.

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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: CrabsAndCylinders on Aug 05, 2017, 15:25:03
Spoked hubs are something that are hard to find for modern USD front ends. Shouldn't be as hard to machine as a top yolk (triple tree in US English). I wish my mill was CNC. At least I have a mill and make my own parts. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170805/00335c49309bb413b1ceabd41e5576aa.jpg)


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What mill do you have, Karl?

Fantastic that you built your own triple clamp!
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Karlloss on Aug 06, 2017, 09:58:38
What mill do you have, Karl?

Fantastic that you built your own triple clamp!

I have a Chester Champion 20v mill http://www.chesterhobbystore.com/champion-20v-mill-3992-p.asp

Basically it's the same Chinese mill as many others. I chose the Chester as it came with MT2 taper which is the same as my Myford ML7 lathe.

The mill is ok, can't take big bites of material as it does vibrate a bit if you do, so I end up with many lighter cuts. Not an issue, just takes time, but then my project build has been 4 years in the making due to life getting in the way.

The triple clamp came out ok, I might tidy it up a bit more yet. I want to anodise it and some other parts when I'm finished.


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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: crazypj on Aug 06, 2017, 16:31:10
Those are easy, we are designing them too!

 You could probably design a modular hub for 20~25mm axles?
 The axle provides strength and rigidity  to forks so a 'built up' hub could be a viable option?

He's casting them in house.

Originals are magnesium, is he doing them in 'ordinary' alloy?
I think someone mentioned the alloy hub weight around 25lbs?



The mill is ok, can't take big bites of material as it does vibrate a bit if you do, so I end up with many lighter cuts. Not an issue, just takes time, but then my project build has been 4 years in the making due to life getting in the way.


 My XS650 has been 'on hold' for 10+ yrs
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 09, 2017, 11:00:34
I didnt know this was vetting made so soon, but got sent to me just now. This is obviously the bottom.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: JSJamboree on Aug 09, 2017, 12:15:57
I still want an offset top tripple to replace the stock RD350 one. Cant use a flat top because it would lower the front end
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: irk miller on Aug 09, 2017, 12:46:28
How do you plan to tighten them on the forks?
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 09, 2017, 12:55:43
How do you plan to tighten them on the forks?
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 09, 2017, 12:56:48
I still want an offset top tripple to replace the stock RD350 one. Cant use a flat top because it would lower the front end

Its probably only an inch no?
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Karlloss on Aug 09, 2017, 14:54:05
Nice work. Makes me wish my mill was CNC with cooling!


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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 09, 2017, 16:37:24
Out of curiosity, how many ops you running on the triple?
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Sav0r on Aug 09, 2017, 16:41:04
More than a few, with more than a few to go.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 09, 2017, 18:17:45
More than a few, with more than a few to go.
Trunion table would be the tits for those.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Sav0r on Aug 09, 2017, 18:50:28
I was actually thinking about that while driving home from work. I've been working on one for my mill, but it sure would be slick for this type of work.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 09, 2017, 19:01:40
They're easy enough to make with a rotary, and a tail stock. But, that way, you don't have a rotational 5th. On these, you'd want the 5th for the bolt holes that go in at an angle.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 09, 2017, 21:46:10
Out of curiosity, how many ops you running on the triple?

My guy says 4. Finished part, well almost.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: crazypj on Aug 10, 2017, 22:30:41
The important bit, what's it going to cost?
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: CrabsAndCylinders on Aug 10, 2017, 22:43:04
My guy says 4. Finished part, well almost.

Pretty!
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 10, 2017, 23:04:28
The important bit, what's it going to cost?

Heh, working on that. I'm guessing I don't have to tell anyone here this isn't going to be a cheap part with all that machining. It's going to largely depend on how big the order is, both for this piece, and other pieces all on the same order.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: crazypj on Aug 11, 2017, 11:47:08
If it comes in much more than $125 you'll still sell quite a few but doubtful to the majority of people on here.
Probably 'worth' $250  or more, I know you have to start with a very expensive block/plate, material and machine time are going to be a bit high?
You already checked some of the other yokes people are making here? CB350/360 is known issue, they go around $100~$120 last time I looked.
 I
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 11, 2017, 12:35:45
If it comes in much more than $125 you'll still sell quite a few but doubtful to the majority of people on here.
Probably 'worth' $250  or more, I know you have to start with a very expensive block/plate, material and machine time are going to be a bit high?
You already checked some of the other yokes people are making here? CB350/360 is known issue, they go around $100~$120 last time I looked.
 I

Cognito's nicer ones go for 249, the cheap flat piece of aluminum ones go for 129. Imo this is much nicer that what is available, I have to get good shots of the beautiful contours, my cell phone did not do it justice. My cost will by high on a low production number like 10, don't care to speculate on an exact number in case i'm wrong. If I did something like 100 I could get it down for sure, there's a lot of setup time for this piece. I think the total actual run time for everthing is 35-40 mins each. This is probably a piece I would make very little on, but it's nice to offer any how.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: crazypj on Aug 12, 2017, 00:29:33
 ;) I just threw out some numbers to see where it went, knowing you would have already priced the competition.
Personally I think $130 for flat plate is way overpriced, the design you have is going to need a much thicker piece to be able to machine all the curves. Good looking piece is going to cost a lot more. Probably be best to make a replacement for USD forks first, new stock piece would be damn expensive simply because the forks are newer (plus, as I already mentioned, there ain't too many different sizes) If tey were drilled for 'risers/bar clamps it would open up a market that doesn't exist at present, USD forks with MX/flat track bars. To get a neat looking handlebar mount is pretty difficult and stock top yoke is real tin where they get drilled for bar mounts (Used to work with a bunch of 'stuntaa's')
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 12, 2017, 04:54:58
;) I just threw out some numbers to see where it went, knowing you would have already priced the competition.
Personally I think $130 for flat plate is way overpriced, the design you have is going to need a much thicker piece to be able to machine all the curves. Good looking piece is going to cost a lot more. Probably be best to make a replacement for USD forks first, new stock piece would be damn expensive simply because the forks are newer (plus, as I already mentioned, there ain't too many different sizes) If tey were drilled for 'risers/bar clamps it would open up a market that doesn't exist at present, USD forks with MX/flat track bars. To get a neat looking handlebar mount is pretty difficult and stock top yoke is real tin where they get drilled for bar mounts (Used to work with a bunch of 'stuntaa's')

Definitely something we can do. Another I'm thinking of offering is new cnc brake arms for drums. They are all in sad condition at this point, and I saw a guy repopping  tz350 drums that is doing it just for the 1 rim, looks awesome!
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 12, 2017, 13:38:08
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-TZ350-TD2-4LS-Leading-Shoe-Front-Brake-Cafe-Racer-TZ-Yamaha-TZ3/202015114293?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3D955ece44a4544625b0fcd7dbe12d5254%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D202015114293&_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042

On this. I'd like to offer those hubs too one day.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: crazypj on Aug 12, 2017, 15:10:58
That's a good price considering what a genuine TD/TZ costs. They have been bid up to crazy prices. It's so far outside my price range that  I don't even look any more though..
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 12, 2017, 15:41:27
That's a good price considering what a genuine TD/TZ costs. They have been bid up to crazy prices. It's so far outside my price range that  I don't even look any more though..

If I had something it made sense for im sure id rationalize the shit out of it and put it on a card, but the only bike im doing for myself at the moment doesnt have a front end wide enough to fit it. And im not cutting into a 2k hub! Maybe when i get to the sohc 750 sitting in the corner ill design one...
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 13, 2017, 04:48:19
Question for whomever. Drum brake arms, you think it's possible to make a universal set for each brand? I have 3 different honda ones (160mm, 180mm, 200mm) and thought I'd play with them all at the same time to see if there's a way to do it. If there is, I can cnc a lot of these things for cheap, both the male and female parts.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 14, 2017, 12:58:31
You'll likely need broaches for the female splined parts. They could be cut on an EDM easily enough, though. Single point broaching them in a cnc would be rather time consuming, or cutting them. You'd have to run something like a .030 end mill.

I have a couple rotary broaches to do brake and shift tabs for rear sets. Those things are awesome.

Slater, and Polygon Solutions have quick turn arounds for roto broaches.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: crazypj on Aug 14, 2017, 23:04:22
The only thing that stopped me making alloy operating arms for the CB 350/360 (plus CB77 and CB450 hubs) TLS brakes I have was broaching the splines. Both need 'new' arms because the chrome is bad. Link rods in stainless steel are the easy bit
The CB77 are a nice shape so worth getting re-plated sometime
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 15, 2017, 12:34:43
This is what you need for the splines.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170815/ace6a1172ea6fd94fbe900fc5d3f051c.jpg)

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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 15, 2017, 12:37:05
This is how she works.

https://youtu.be/C5i6WteJ2wU (https://youtu.be/C5i6WteJ2wU)
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Sav0r on Aug 15, 2017, 12:41:26
I've looked at rotary broaches many times for doing brake arms and shift levers, such cool tools. It's hard to justify the cost for a hand full of parts though.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 15, 2017, 13:00:31
Last one I bought from Polygon was $600, add another $300-$400 if you don't have a holder, and $150 for them to reverse engineer it.

I was buying brake and shift levers, and welding a tab to them for the last several years. Topped $15K in levers last year, so broaches were bought.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Sav0r on Aug 15, 2017, 13:57:32
Yep, that's too much dough for my applications.

I have noticed that prices are coming down and some import broaches are hitting the market. Obviously not much of an advantage for a shop doing large quantities, the better tool will always be a money saver, but for guys like me it lets me do the work myself since I'll never wear the tool out in the foreseeable future anyways.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: Tune-A-Fishİ on Aug 25, 2017, 14:02:03
;) I just threw out some numbers to see where it went, knowing you would have already priced the competition.
Personally I think $130 for flat plate is way overpriced, the design you have is going to need a much thicker piece to be able to machine all the curves. Good looking piece is going to cost a lot more. Probably be best to make a replacement for USD forks first, new stock piece would be damn expensive simply because the forks are newer (plus, as I already mentioned, there ain't too many different sizes) If tey were drilled for 'risers/bar clamps it would open up a market that doesn't exist at present, USD forks with MX/flat track bars. To get a neat looking handlebar mount is pretty difficult and stock top yoke is real tin where they get drilled for bar mounts (Used to work with a bunch of 'stuntaa's')

Had this made here, can't remember who tho.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170825/20333da6a00d3b20a01fb04f3637acc0.jpg)





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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: BarnBurner on Aug 26, 2017, 18:09:03
I'd be interested in a fork brace for a 350. Vintage aftermarket ones fit funny and the brace from the stock front fender is ugly.


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Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: J-Rod10 on Aug 27, 2017, 12:58:50
Definitely some coin to be made, building top clamps with risers for sport bikes. See people asking about them regularly.
Title: Re: New CNC parts line.
Post by: jag767 on Aug 28, 2017, 14:58:09
Well, we will be moving ahead with top clamps and fork braces. Already have a dynamite design for the top clamp, and first batch will be a preorder for cb350, 360, I  think some cx500s, basically any bike that used that same 33mm front end. Working on pricing now.