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Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Projects => Restorations => Topic started by: Texasstar on Sep 28, 2017, 11:23:43

Title: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 28, 2017, 11:23:43
Kind of a restoration. The bike that Fabio Taglioni should have built? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/c3bf181e6b07d002ac9528fbb3fc989c.png)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/fcc67f58021720c9b8355d8b60eb95b7.png)Zeke was suppose to be doing his homework during computer class at school. He found this online and it was close to home so we took a look. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170928/a2cae3cb3bd63d7743019efc7daef53f.png)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Uglyrabbit on Sep 28, 2017, 17:10:47
Nice!


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 28, 2017, 22:36:44
This build has been on hold for the past two years until we finished our other ZoŲid cb175 build. Now we get to work on one of our bikes again! Zeke's dream bike is the Ducati Elite 200 with a Jellymold tank also called the "bean" tank but this fell into our lap and we have been doing research on Ducati small singles for the past year including Fabio Taglioni the designer that made Ducati's so beautiful. Fabio's name  means 'bean' in Italian. Fabio came to Ducati from Mondial and the Mondial is one of my favorite Italian bikes.

When we arrived to look at the bike we thought we were going to see the Scrambler in the condition of the pictures but boy were we in for a surprise. This guy was so good his wife didn't know he was working on it as a project and you could tell it was a passion of his. We were standing in his garage which had boxes stacked in it but if you turned around and looked at his house it had just been demolished by a tornado. When we approached his address we couldn't believe what destruction this tornado did. However when we turned back to look in the garage he started pulling out the parts. The frame was powder-coated. He pulled out a fully painted and sealed Monza tank. The seat was covered and badged Ducati. Next was the engine. A widecase 250.  He had it fully rebuilt by Syds Cycles out of Florida. Forks were 35mm Marzocchis but one was bent.  Most of the parts were there! He had shouldered rims laced up with Avon rubber, He also collected Italian NOS for the project.   We left because there was no way we could afford what he was asking. Later that night he called us and said he wanted us to have the bike and made us a deal we couldn't refuse.  We took it home and Zeke stayed up and put it together that night and there it sat for two years. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170929/60d7be44badd7eda22c02ae59b8d3aed.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170929/7a8d3e12f966df91f396d91fb24edbe6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170929/85ca736714b83351831c915ecbd8cd03.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Sep 28, 2017, 22:37:20
Nice!


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Thank you!


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Nov 24, 2017, 14:54:45
Onward time for some modifications to the rear sprocket. We made a template in fusion 360 for some speed holes.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/9f5587fdb76ad2043bd9eed5e6b466f4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/366d386c9e45db6fc1c1c3ed23e9499e.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Nov 24, 2017, 14:55:52
https://youtu.be/P25RWUDgYKI


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Nov 24, 2017, 15:05:51
We have made significant strides in upgrades on our Honda electrical systems so we are thinking about converting the 6v Ducati with a 60 watt charging system over to 12 volt. Seems to be an easy fix. This article is for a Ducati narrow case but the concept is the same for the Ducati widecase. All you have to do is wire them in series, In fact what I have read for the wide case is that all we have to do is leave one wire disconnected since it is not grounded internally to the stator.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/d97ad49f0677180cff7dc608375907fc.gif)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Nov 24, 2017, 15:29:53
Ride height of the Scrambler the day after we had it Home.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/9830dcf8315715f595a526bdc15399e1.png)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Nov 24, 2017, 15:31:20
So we lowered the front 35mm Marzocchis with spacers and lowered the rear also. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/f06c870d096535a15449f2ed6ee53a41.png)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Nov 24, 2017, 15:33:34
Did not like the Scrambler fork ears nor the lines of the bike with that head light so we picked up some period correct ears. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/3620108de51fbff506c8b315696a87a8.png)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Nov 24, 2017, 15:48:10
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/b20c04b4ad23f7090ac4c4f7e4199eed.jpg)zeke checking out the ride


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 02, 2018, 13:23:02
We have the Duc in the shop. We made a lazy Susan bike stand over Christmas. https://youtu.be/Zjf-jYKdy7I


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 02, 2018, 13:23:59
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/74a633bdee1a687e163c6646e4a69f5c.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 02, 2018, 13:36:34
https://youtu.be/wAaPbRtA7As  To marry the 35mm Marzocchis triple to the cast head light ears for our Ducati 250 build we needed to machine some delrin spacers to set the height of the of the headlight bucket. We used a boring bar on our g0602 Grizzly Lathe. Delrin machines great!


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 02, 2018, 13:37:30
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/fa898c758705033cf4045a46994a7c26.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/366c757c73ab526ec58c60d08741df9a.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 19, 2018, 11:35:04
Removing the bezel from a Ducati 250 speedometer to clean and lube. https://youtu.be/L_A91IBNoXU


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 19, 2018, 11:37:34
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_throttle_assembly_-tommaselli_super_pratic_b-.html.  Throttle assembly (Tommaselli Super Pratic B)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 19, 2018, 11:39:41
Super Pratic B retaining ring install.
C/


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 19, 2018, 11:44:57
Not real enthused about the Super Pratic B throttle design. It seems that it would be better to have 3 set screws to center the collar so the barrel isnít offset and creates drag on the throttle. Have gone to a thinner rubber drag but the throttle still doesnít want to retract after cleaning and lubing.


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: innovativems on Jan 19, 2018, 15:03:50
Love these little Ducatiís.  Whatís the miles per boxes of pasta on that guy?


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 19, 2018, 16:01:09
Love these little Ducatiís.  Whatís the miles per boxes of pasta on that guy?


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It only had 900 ish


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: DesmoDog on Jan 19, 2018, 16:15:38
Not real enthused about the Super Pratic B throttle design.

I'm right there with ya on that. I bought an NOS part a few years back. Took it apart and cleaned/lubed everything but it never did get to the point I thought it would work very well. Ended up buying a modern throttle instead. Won't impress the purists but it should work better. Well, should work better if I ever finish the bike. Neither one seems to sit on the shelf any better than the other...
Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 19, 2018, 16:20:05
I'm right there with ya on that. I bought an NOS part a few years back. Took it apart and cleaned/lubed everything but it never did get to the point I thought it would work very well. Ended up buying a modern throttle instead. Won't impress the purists but it should work better. Well, should work better if I ever finish the bike. Neither one seems to sit on the shelf any better than the other...

We have 3 of them! Lol! Zeke stripped the little screw that holds the cover so now 2. The irony is the original one still on the original Scrambler bars works great! So I am going to save it if this ever needs to go back to being a Scrambler. Most of the purists I have met all cuss at this throttle.  frustrato!!! Or Italian cruise control!


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Jan 19, 2018, 16:23:47
I'm right there with ya on that. I bought an NOS part a few years back. Took it apart and cleaned/lubed everything but it never did get to the point I thought it would work very well. Ended up buying a modern throttle instead. Won't impress the purists but it should work better. Well, should work better if I ever finish the bike. Neither one seems to sit on the shelf any better than the other...
On another note. Concerning the rear shocks...what was the stock length, spring rate, was Ducati the manufacturer?


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 03, 2018, 08:38:15
Curious George here.  Is there a reason why Ducati used two pieces of glass in their vintage speedometers? So you are NOT suppose to create a water tight seal for most  speedometers because they need to breathe and not build up condensation. However, Ducati used glazing putty to seal the bezel to the first glass. Then placed a paper gasket between the next piece of glass. So the first seal was water tight but was the second one? Did they ever build up condensation between the two pieces of glass?  Is there a better solution? Putty dries out and you can see the results. Why didnít they use an o-ring?
U/


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: The Jimbonaut on Feb 03, 2018, 13:05:15
When I grow up I want to be just like Zeke.


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: DesmoDog on Feb 03, 2018, 16:49:01
Ducati doesn't manufacture anything. They assemble engines, and assemble parts into motorcycles, but pretty much all the parts are bought from suppliers. I forget who built the shocks back in the day.

The only speedo I took apart used one piece of glass


Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 03, 2018, 18:23:55
Ducati doesn't manufacture anything. They assemble engines, and assemble parts into motorcycles, but pretty much all the parts are bought from suppliers. I forget who built the shocks back in the day.

The only speedo I took apart used one piece of glass
Parilla must have used the same suppliers also. That may explain why we are seeing similar parts on our Parilla.  The clutch arms on the engines look the same...Tanks looked similar on some of the earlier models. Thank you.


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 12, 2018, 09:49:17
So we discovered you can use DC current on an AC coil http://www.ecmweb.com/content/using-ac-coils-dc-power (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180212/02eeaa46dd915940ef30759dc4dd8f4f.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 12, 2018, 09:56:29
So just for grins we hooked up Dc to the Ac coil


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 12, 2018, 10:01:08
https://youtu.be/obCuaZwI-34


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Title: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 12, 2018, 11:44:40
Wondering if Ducati used the same coil for both Ac/Dc to stay back in black?


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 13, 2018, 12:27:12
First start Ducati 250  https://youtu.be/RhHE1RqaOOU


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 07:50:08
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/e6b4c23e83ee5b9f2b82f5347b07eb0b.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 07:50:34
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/3abe345bcb4445786ddb7850d7af8bf5.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 08:00:44
Originally our Ducati 250 widecase ran off the mag with an Ac coil.  The lights were controlled by the battery and there was only one diode in the system and no half Wave rectifier like the other Ducati 6v systems???Apparently the new coil we found with the stash of parts IS a DC coil. Is this system effectively a 3 phase 6v system?  We want  to run a 12v LED headlight.  How would you get there with this system? I have read about disconnecting the grounds on the stator am wiring them in series to get there and also read a LONG treatise on why not to do that and just disconnect the grounds and bring them out of the stator to rectify individually??? I will post more pictures


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 08:09:12
Here are the wire colors coming out of the case. I donít know if this is a common conversion to change colors to match up the connecting wires on the diagram...geeze and I thought the Hondaís were confusing.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/ebfc54efd0ec78f77aaba7c2f7b20168.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 08:12:22
Is this the derivation terminal block with the diode at the top?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/d1ee6c893589dfa6c3581fdde6b06277.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/45b9e40145b9d1c9744eb2ea67e4b197.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: DesmoDog on Feb 17, 2018, 12:05:16
Here are the wire colors coming out of the case. I donít know if this is a common conversion to change colors to match up the connecting wires on the diagram...

To me that looks like a typical replacement for the original wires that were likely trashed years ago. I doubt it had anything to do with trying to match colors, that's just what was available in that type of wire.

Is this the derivation terminal block with the diode at the top?

I don't know what a derivation terminal block is, but that's not a diode it's a fuse.
Title: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 12:49:34
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/b5d64868f91eb6df46eb4f0004b4f385.png)white wire Ac voltage of the  mag  is 21.4 ACV for the 68 Ducati 250 Scrambler

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Title: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 12:51:07
Black wire Ac voltage 4.35 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/32eb0f3713481d6dc7462ab1bff22063.png)


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Title: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 12:53:25
Green wire Ac voltage 8.67 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/3f0fc29d0186eeda36f72bcc96011c7a.png)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 17, 2018, 12:55:29
To me that looks like a typical replacement for the original wires that were likely trashed years ago. I doubt it had anything to do with trying to match colors, that's just what was available in that type of wire.

I don't know what a derivation terminal block is, but that's not a diode it's a fuse.
Thank you the derivation terminal was listed on the wiring diagram. Now I know what an Italian fuse looks like!


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 18, 2018, 02:45:08
Wow DewCatTea Bobís posts on Motoscrubs are amazing! Sorry to hear about his passing but thank goodness for Forums like DTT and Motoscrubs to capture and preserve Bobís genius and legacy! 


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Title: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 18, 2018, 10:23:13
Stage Right enter DewCatTEA Bob as Jay Leno says, "there is always a guy who is an expert in it"

So we found a Ducati Scrambler String with a similar wiring set up as ours and both are not stock as the diagram shows above.

http://www.motoscrubs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2091&p=15738&hilit=28+watt+system#p15738

So here is the background info on our bike. We know it is above engine number 92172 and were are using the correct diagram in the Ducati Workshop Book.

We know that Mick Walker's Ducati Singles Restoration does not take in account the Ducati Scramblers for the use of a Diode and said it was "only fitted to the 160 Monza Junior"

We have been very curious why Ducati chose to go to a 28 Watt system from a 40 watt system but we think we know the answer to that now. It was to balance the system so Ducati didn't need to use a Reg/rec.

So here are our findings all three wires from the case have continuity with each other.

If you ground the ohm meter to the case

White wire has 1 ohm
Green wire has .5 ohm
Black wire has .2 ohm

at idle doing the same procedure

White wire 21vac
Green wire 8 vac
Black wire 4 vac

According to DewCatTea Bob the wire with the 1 ohm should be the ignition circuit.

He also said that the Green label
Ducati coil which is an AC coil should have a resistance of 1 amp however we have two of those coils and they are both reading what they guy in the post got on his 3.8-4 ohms. Now the new 6 volt coil we started the 250 Ducati Scrambler Wide Case  Scrambler with has 1.8 ohms closer to what Bob said. Once our neighbors wake up will will fire the Duc up and test the white wire to see if it will start it without a battery.  We wired it with the white and point going to the positive on the coil and we wired the negative to ground on the frame. We know the bike runs great and starts great because we first started it on total loss the only difference is the coil need to be wired differently with the positive of the battery going to the batter and the negative going to the points and condenser. Don't ground the negative to the frame it won't start!

DewCATtea Bob is the dude. I am pretty sure he is giving Ducati rides in heaven. RIP
Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 18, 2018, 11:39:33
DewCatTea bob was correct! https://youtu.be/KNFjhhzRPBg


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: farmer92 on Feb 18, 2018, 12:12:05
In regards to AC vs DC coils,
Coils are coils and they are both transformers.

A coil from a cdi ignition will be getting a substantially higher voltage from the cdi box than it would from a battery on a points system.

In order to have the same voltage at the spark plug, the inductance of the primary circuit must be different. This is achieved with either different cores, different size windings, different number of windings etc.

Long story short, running coils from a points system with a CDI might cook it, and vice versa might not spark as well.

Itís easy enough to compare if you have a known AC voltage source, you can hook it up to the primary side and see what voltage comes out the other. The ratio of resistances would also be a good indicator before hand as the relationship between resistance and the number of loops in the windings is linear (given the same gauge wire is used in both).
Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 18, 2018, 21:25:10
https://youtu.be/_JS4v1jhnV8 we test the other two circuits coming off the Ducati 28 watt magneto alternator.


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Title: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 18, 2018, 21:27:52
In regards to AC vs DC coils,
Coils are coils and they are both transformers.

A coil from a cdi ignition will be getting a substantially higher voltage from the cdi box than it would from a battery on a points system.

In order to have the same voltage at the spark plug, the inductance of the primary circuit must be different. This is achieved with either different cores, different size windings, different number of windings etc.

Long story short, running coils from a points system with a CDI might cook it, and vice versa might not spark as well.

Itís easy enough to compare if you have a known AC voltage source, you can hook it up to the primary side and see what voltage comes out the other. The ratio of resistances would also be a good indicator before hand as the relationship between resistance and the number of loops in the windings is linear (given the same gauge wire is used in both).
That is good stuff! We use 5ohm coils on our Dyna S electronic ignitions on our other bikes.

Ducati used two different coils one that worked with the Ac Mag and the other with the Dc system.


You would have to reference the other link DewCatTea Bob said that the Ac coils had a lower resistance of around 1 ohm.





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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 19, 2018, 06:22:00
This is on the tinkering list.
Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 19, 2018, 07:11:13
Another tinkering option is DewCatTEA Bob's brilliance! Check out his diagram at the bottom of the post! In this post http://www.motoscrubs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=394&hilit=12+volt+conversion+scrambler&start=20  Bob explains how to modify an existing Ducati 6v system to harness the wasted power using bridge blocks and convert to 12v

"As far as the difference between 6 & 12 volt charging goes, there would only be a slight difference in the RPM needed to actually begin any actual charging of the battery...
As a 6-volt battery's std.volatage-level would be able to feel charging-pokes from the alternator's voltage-peaks, at a slightly lower RPM than a 12-volt battery would,, as the RPMs climb, from a non-charging to a charging amount of alt.power-output.
So while that may seem like a worthwhile-bit of an advantage for prefering to go-with the 6-volt choice, it's not really very critical for normal (non-constant low-RPM) riding. _ Because a 12-volt battery won't begin to act as a load (and begin consuming alt.power-juice) at the same lower RPM, thus allowing the alt.power to fairly quickly build-up from the 6v to the 12v level and therefore tends to reduce the otherwise seemingly quite noteworthy advantage, (which is actually only a slight one). _ (Keep in mind that a battery that's able to receive any CHARGING-juice is also a 'load' that's partially wasting the charging-system's power-juice, since unlike a capacitor, the battery can't give back everything it has taken !)
__ And from the other point of view, a 12-volt battery system will not as likely make any use of a voltage-regulator."
The AC-output (of that lighting power-coil's two wire-leads) would then need to be full-wave rectified by a 10 or (25-amp) bridge-block, of which it's DC-output should then be switched so that it's only turned-on when the lights are running off the battery.
____ The other alt.stator power-coil -(meant for ignition & brake-light), would also have to have it's Yellow & White wire-leads connected to another separate bride-block, so that it's full-wave DC-output could then keep the battery charged and run a 12-volt battery-powered ignition-system. ____ The full-wave diode-bridge for the lighting alt.coil should have at least a 6-amp rating, and the battery charging circuit's diode-bridge should be at least 4-amp, and both ought to have greater than a 50PIV rating.
__ But those bridge-rectifier units which you may find, (while quite cheap), may be difficult to mount & wire-up.
So I'd recommend buying a pair of bridge-blocks with 25-amp & 200PIV, as that is such a commonly produced diode-bridge size, that it's quite cheap for it's specs and also easy to mount & wire-up !"   
Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Feb 21, 2018, 12:45:48
Tinkering https://youtu.be/BWXitFxhGQk
Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Mar 13, 2018, 14:38:44
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/10b81fbbdc6f07e88c137688e48b70f2.jpg) Restomod Ducati 250 Scrambler(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/da8143486b352815f5249864c5174966.jpg)


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Mar 13, 2018, 14:39:45
First ride...a few little issues https://youtu.be/sHIbKW-b8j0


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Sonreir on Mar 13, 2018, 16:08:39
Looking sharp.
Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: Texasstar on Mar 14, 2018, 17:57:59
Looking sharp.
Thank you Sonreir!


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Title: Re: 68 Ducati 250 SSS minus an S
Post by: The Jimbonaut on Mar 14, 2018, 18:04:15
Sounds great!  Looks the part too!