DO THE TON

Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Projects => Cafe Racers => Topic started by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 15, 2018, 18:54:11

Title: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 15, 2018, 18:54:11
OK here we go. I bought this bike in February last year from the second owner, who in an attempt to rekindle his youth decided to "cafe" the bike and had a younger friend 'help' him do so. It was quite a mess, I don't know why he chose to chop up an otherwise perfectly good bike.

I never intended to document anything or make a thread so I didn't take many pictures of anything but we are starting over this winter making this thing proper so you guys get yet another cb360 thread (thanks PJ)

the bike ran well, even with velocity stacks and no exhaust (and I mean no exhaust, the guy cut all but the first 9 inches of bend off the pipes and left it, I dunno what he was going for.
the first thing I did was put exhaust on it. the electrics were whack, but the bike ran and rode well, i rode it all summer only ever catching on fire once.

so here we are now!
before I rode it I did some things, I changed fork fluid, changed oil, PO said it was recently "maintained" whatever that meant. Tires on the bike are shit Chen Shen or something. Gonna have to fix that. Everything else is as follows. FOLLOW ALONG!

(https://i.imgur.com/zqq9TlA.jpg)

yes, this is where I am right now. in my back garden, with nothing but a tarp for protection and some less than stable work surfaces! But hey, its fun. friends are helping with welding and the larger machining tasks.

(https://i.imgur.com/XTiknh4.jpg)

this is what the under seat looked like after it caught fire (charging system not up to snuff, not my wiring!)

(https://i.imgur.com/GzsZRX3.jpg)

new rick's kit - should fix that

(https://i.imgur.com/1WShMZ6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RcwBocZ.jpg)

chopping down the rear (will add hoop here as soon as I get new tuffside seat in so that it can match well)

(https://i.imgur.com/c9WEv12.jpg)

comparing clubmans and clip ons. these clipons are trash, I ordered better ones

(https://i.imgur.com/C6eYdo5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dAfGGwj.jpg)

drilled some holes. may drill more to clean the rest of the rotor these holes will just leave grooves I fear

(https://i.imgur.com/QpfNHEx.jpg)

engine out

(https://i.imgur.com/lXRhMDt.jpg)

new valves are in order. debating the extra $50 each for 1mm larger intakes


rest of the engine is in remarkably excellent shape. pensioners are the OLD style, and look very worn. will replace.
I am planning to bore the engine out using tried and true methods of the GS850 pistons, which I already have in hand, with rings and new hardware. copper gasket, some mild porting to clean things up. stay tuned, Lots more to come. Now that I know I need to make a thread, I will do better with pictures
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 15, 2018, 19:16:42
Awesome.  The ebbs and flows of CB360 threads on DTT.  It's nice to have another upswing. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 16, 2018, 15:55:52
(https://i.imgur.com/dwfPHK0.jpg)

Found some new old stock gs850 pistons. Gonna be punching the cylinders out (well having it done locally)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 16, 2018, 15:58:38
Nice score.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: WhyNot on Jan 16, 2018, 16:26:19
Interesting build.

I don't suppose you can do this same trick to a CB350 twin can you?

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 16, 2018, 16:29:00
Interesting build.

I don't suppose you can do this same trick to a CB350 twin can you?

the 350 i believe uses a 15mm wrist pin, where the cb360 and gs850 both use a ~16mm diameter wrist pin.

so short answer is - anything can be done with enough money
long answer is - it's gonna take a lot of money to do that
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: WhyNot on Jan 16, 2018, 16:30:03
the 350 i believe uses a 15mm wrist pin, where the cb360 and gs850 both use a ~16mm diameter wrist pin.

so short answer is - anything can be done with enough money
long answer is - it's gonna take a lot of money to do that

lol....thanks
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on Jan 16, 2018, 18:17:36
Following along.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: advCo on Jan 16, 2018, 18:33:55
Definitely drill out the rest of the rotor, it will squeal like a piggy and gouge the pads if you run it like that. Ask me how I know  ;D
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 16, 2018, 19:40:13
The extra 22cc is best bang for the buck ever.
Oversize intake valves are a good idea but not 100% necessary, all my engines so far are running stock valves.
Cheng Shin made in last 5~6 yrs are OK  particularly at the price point and far superior to some of the overpriced crap out there (the price of one nice square Firestone will probably get you 3 Cheng Shin OK tyres)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 16, 2018, 20:00:42
The extra 22cc is best bang for the buck ever.
Oversize intake valves are a good idea but not 100% necessary, all my engines so far are running stock valves.

the valves im only debating because "while it's apart" still up in the air - gaming computer components are stupid expensive right now so i have decided to put that stuff on hold, opening up the bike budget some - carburetors is what I am really worried about tackling probably gonna pick up a jet kit from common-motor.com bike had symptoms of running lean and i imagine that the larger displacement, porting, and exhaust that i plan on making will require more fuel

one question: do I have to split the case? it's never been open before, bike had pretty low miles on it and shifted flawlessly. I'm wondering the pros and cons to splitting the case
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 16, 2018, 20:07:53
Don't split the cases unless you know the transmission and/or crank are a mess.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 16, 2018, 20:12:32
No need to open case unless you really want to have a look inside or kickstart return spring breaks. All the 'important' stuff you need to do can be done with just the covers off.
 If you want to run K&N wit stock carbs they cannot be  just jetted but need extra stuff done to them (and for road use modified stock are almost always superior to Mikuni VM) The only thing that as to be changed is secondary main jet and that is totally dependent on the exhaust system more than extra 11cc per cylinder. the extra 'vacuum' is self compensating with stock carbs. Trek is using smaller than stock primary mains (65?) with stock bore and I'm pretty sure he won't need to change  back to originals  (68) with the 378 he's doing
 I've never seen a broken transmission in a 360, it's designed for more power tan bike can ever make (unless you get into full turbo/supercharger, nitrous, etc) Same goes for crank although parking bike in a lake for a few months would probably screw the bearings pretty good. Small ends can get scuffed if left idling but even that takes a long time plus dirty oil
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 16, 2018, 20:22:20
Interesting build.

I don't suppose you can do this same trick to a CB350 twin can you?

You sorta can but it's more work. I think GS 550 pistons work or it may have been Kawasaki 650? (been a long time since I did one)
It's a little more expensive but easier to get a Todd Henning kit for 350 although I can't remember if CR is a bit higher than you want for road gas?
Biggest issue with 350 compared to 360 is the offset stud spacing so you have to bore block offset to get major capacity increase plus you then ave to use same offset on crankcase top. 360 will got to a 70mm bore but 350, never going to happen unless you weld all the stud holes then make a new block and head
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 16, 2018, 20:37:42
No need to open case unless you really want to have a look inside or kickstart return spring breaks. All the 'important' stuff you need to do can be done with just the covers off.
 If you want to run K&N wit stock carbs they cannot be  just jetted but need extra stuff done to them (and for road use modified stock are almost always superior to Mikuni VM) The only thing that as to be changed is secondary main jet and that is totally dependent on the exhaust system more than extra 11cc per cylinder. the extra 'vacuum' is self compensating with stock carbs. Trek is using smaller than stock primary mains (65?) with stock bore and I'm pretty sure he won't need to change  back to originals  (68) with the 378 he's doing
 I've never seen a broken transmission in a 360, it's designed for more power tan bike can ever make (unless you get into full turbo/supercharger, nitrous, etc) Same goes for crank although parking bike in a lake for a few months would probably screw the bearings pretty good. Small ends can get scuffed if left idling but even that takes a long time plus dirty oil

thanks man. you still doing carb stuff?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 16, 2018, 20:41:41
Yep but I'm really slow 6weeks to 3 monts turn around(too much other stuff going on plus (gasp) I'm getting older
You need to drill the 'extra' holes in rotor so they 'overlap' slightly, that way pads stay flat and rotor stays 'clean'
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 16, 2018, 20:41:56
(https://i.imgur.com/a9137cx.jpg)

Will need to find a new way to mount the tank, this all has to come out to do what I want with the seat
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 16, 2018, 20:53:23
Use a Yamaha rear mount and drill a hole for bolt/washer combo (or weld a tube/nut to frame) or weld  CB piece to frame with original rubber mount. I don't remember how I did last one of mine when I swapped tanks
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 16, 2018, 21:30:02
I was thinking actually stock front bumpers and Velcro,  or old school tank strap
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 16, 2018, 21:42:18
Velcro  won't hold it if you hit a decent pothole plus tank can move around if your 'using' it when cornering. Even stock mounts are marginal when your 'leaning on it' a bit ;)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 16, 2018, 22:50:12
wow I am dumb, didn't think about cornering. thank god I'm only dumb enough to hurt myself
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 01:22:30
(https://i.imgur.com/jyij2ez.jpg)

CJ360 swingarm is slightly longer (by about an inch) than the CB, and I really liked the look of the CJ brake pedal.

(https://i.imgur.com/8uLBh0b.jpg)

yea lets drill holes in it
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 17, 2018, 10:07:02

CJ360 swingarm is slightly longer (by about an inch) than the CB, and I really liked the look of the CJ brake pedal.


I got hold of an XR200 'Pro Link' swing arm (about 4" longer) plus CJ brake pedal for 'Blue Bike'
Just need to get my arse in gear and get some work done on it again
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 12:13:32
I got hold of an XR200 'Pro Link' swing arm (about 4" longer) plus CJ brake pedal for 'Blue Bike'
Just need to get my arse in gear and get some work done on it again

I debated chopping and going 3 inches longer, I really want to retain the original appearance of the bike just make it low and mean. I suppose aluminum swingarm is nice and light, just looks out of place to me
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 17:13:53
(https://i.imgur.com/3O0Uhj4.jpg)

side by side, stock cb360 vs GS850

Wonder if I will have to do anything to combustion camber in head to make these work properly
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 17, 2018, 17:15:53
Wonder if I will have to do anything to combustion camber in head to make these work properly
Nope
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 18:23:20
Nope

Even with the flat part around the piston? Does that effect flow or combustion?
I'm thinking it will work for sure yes, seeing the larger number of people that have used these pistons but optimally... I guess modifying the piston is easier. Is there a compression change with the more dome shape?

Also just realized I have to use the gs piston pins, even thought I bought new cb ones, because they are about 1mm shorter and the clips won't work with the cb pins
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 17, 2018, 18:41:52
Don't touch pistons or head, you set clearances with different thickness gaskets. CR comes up a bit due to size of overbore.
If you run 0.040" piston to head you can still use 87 Octane without problems Although I try to get 0.037"~0.038" and 2:1 - 87/93 when I can't get 91 octane. Bit nervous first time I tried it but couln't feel any difference even running a couple of tans 87
XR swing arm is silver painted steel, alloy would be nice but stock XR is direct fitand much easier to weld mounts for twin shock. I would have gotten an earlier twin shock one or XL but XR was easier to find
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 17, 2018, 18:49:04
I used the XL250 swingarm on my second 360.  It was a super easy swap to dual shocks.  And like PJ said, I also used 042 copper base gasket to get deck height right. 

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160924/77dea7afe678b3fd3c50b595c7e8d275.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 18:53:44
Don't touch pistons or head, you set clearances with different thickness gaskets. CR comes up a bit due to size of overbore.
If you run 0.040" piston to head you can still use 87 Octane without problems Although I try to get 0.037"~0.038" and 2:1 - 87/93 when I can't get 91 octane. Bit nervous first time I tried it but couln't feel any difference even running a couple of tans 87
XR swing arm is silver painted steel, alloy would be nice but stock XR is direct fitand much easier to weld mounts for twin shock. I would have gotten an earlier twin shock one or XL but XR was easier to find

I got my gasket kit in, and ordered a .040 copper head gasket, will have to see if I need to do something with base gasket to get the right clearance - copper base gasket worth it? seams like every time I click a thread or photo searching for info or vendors on this stuff I get a dead link or expired photo.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 17, 2018, 19:05:20
There was a link from SOHC4.net telling you how to re-set the photobucket pictures, it worked for me with Firefox 57.??.
Very few people are going to pay the Photobucket 'ransom' of $400.00 a year, I sure as hell ain't doing it particularly as it's possible to post pictures directly to site now (just have to find all the hard drives and flash drives where pictures are stored  ::) )
 The way to find out what you need is have block bored for pistons then do a dry assembly without rings to check dimensions. Use a copper base gasket for better heat transfer to crankcase. When I first 'invented' the GS piston conversion I wasn't aware there were production variations in crankcase deck height (plus got lucky) so didn't tell people to dry run first (plus, I've been doing this so long I assumed anyone building a modified engine would automatically check)
 I ended up taking about 0.025" off head surface plus 0.020" off block to get 'zero deck' It would have been easier to just get a thinner base gasket from Lani
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 19:35:41
I have a habit if researching the crap out of stuff before I actually commit to it, this bike has been and adventure in NOT doing that. LOL there were mistakes made (anyone ever see a scrambler exhaust on right side of the bike? no? that's because it interferes with the kickstarter.... go figure)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Jan 17, 2018, 20:21:08
(anyone ever see a scrambler exhaust on right side of the bike? no? that's because it interferes with the kickstarter.... go figure)

I seen it once, just a bit of MAP gas and a simple tweak..Viola, easy peasy.   ;)

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-181215062659.jpeg)

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-170118181841-31472004.jpeg)

The real trick on CB360 is keeping clear to access the dipstick.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-170118182654.jpeg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 17, 2018, 20:21:48
Call Lani at http://www.coppergaskets.us/ (http://www.coppergaskets.us/).  He's a super nice guy and he has the templates to do the CB360.  Once you figure out what you need, he'll make them up.  Turn-around is very reasonable.  Usually, within a week from order you have them in your hands.  Key to using copper gaskets is a proper temper.  Some will argue that the best headgasket is MULTI LAYER STEEL (MLS).  Cometic can custom make them for you, if they are not in stock.  A combination of a copper base and MLS head gasket would not be a bad way to go.  That said, I'm running copper base and head gasket on my 378.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 20:30:24
I seen it once, just a bit of MAP gas and a simple tweak..Viola, easy peasy.   ;)

[img]http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-181215062659.jpeg[img]

[img]http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-170118181841-31472004.jpeg[img]

The real trick is keeping clear to access the dipstick.

[img]http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-170118182654.jpeg[img]

oh that looks great!
nice

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Jan 17, 2018, 20:32:42
oh that looks great!
nice

 8). Thanks
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Jan 17, 2018, 20:35:50
I think Irk may have just done the same w his 360???

Yes Irk did and also thinking way back CrazyPJ did it too.
 
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171108/138eb2fba26455ccdbee62f2cb8e107e.jpg)


Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 20:50:39
(https://i.imgur.com/IBADloU.jpg)

This was mine. I did it because the engine case stuck out more on this side and it seamed right. That was until I got to put the kicker on
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 17, 2018, 22:53:10
I think the look is worth altering to kicker to make work. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Jan 17, 2018, 23:09:08
Ooo thats a really nice job. :)

Adding a couple small heat shields will make all the difference.

I made mine from some thin stainless and hose clamps.  Not too pretty, just effective.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 17, 2018, 23:32:40
I burned the shit out of my leg when I first started riding it.
a lot of people really like the exhaust and have offered to buy it or take it off my hands. I have CJ exhaust, which I like the looks of exhaust that is lower - but I plan to custom make a 2-2 exhaust that goes along the side of the bike like the CJ, but instead of the merge collector, it will have two upswept reverse cone mufflers.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Jan 18, 2018, 06:18:28
I plan to custom make a 2-2 exhaust that goes along the side of the bike like the CJ, but instead of the merge collector, it will have two upswept reverse cone mufflers.

I see and yea a pretty neat plan.
I built mine to accommodate the rearset pegs. 
This winter I was planning to lower my pegs a bit, while I had engine out for 378 conversion.
The dang weather has slowed progress on my wifes 78 Hondamatic.  So not sure if I will get to my bike.   ::)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 18, 2018, 14:01:45
I see and yea a pretty neat plan.
I built mine to accommodate the rearset pegs. 
This winter I was planning to lower my pegs a bit, while I had engine out for 378 conversion.
The dang weather has slowed progress on my wifes 78 Hondamatic.  So not sure if I will get to my bike.   ::)

I bought the bike with the Old School Speed rearsets on there - I absolutely could not stand them. The right angle joins they used were totally wrong and downright dangerous for that application. I bought some spherical rod ends and made it about 100x better, but still ended up finding someone on Reddit that traded me straight accross for stock foot controls. I also chopped off the passenger peg mounts already. if (big if) I decide to go with rear set controls I will custom mount them, but I doubt I will, I like they stock position even with clipons (i'm short 5'7" and 130lbs)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 18, 2018, 14:05:57
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-180118120331.jpeg)

this is my inspiration for exhaust, not sure what or who this picture is from. but I want to have the mufflers look like the old super sport 4cyl bikes but just on the one side
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 18, 2018, 16:06:09
I built a right side exhaust on my '391'
Used parts from a 3 valve CB/CM250/400, Ford Escort (FWD) and some 2" dia pipe I pulled from a skip (we don't 'do' dumpsters in Britain) It was no where near interfering with kick-starter.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 18, 2018, 16:14:55
yea see, my limited time frame and product availability I just had to work with essentially straight pipe and the left over parts from the cut down exhaust - I wanted to ride it that weekend. Now that winter has struck I am going to be doing things a lot more proper. it's amazing what can be done with proper planning and skills. neither of which was available to me last year. LOL
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 18, 2018, 16:19:04
I built a right side exhaust on my '391'
Used parts from a 3 valve CB/CM250/400, Ford Escort (FWD) and some 2" dia pipe I pulled from a skip (we don't 'do' dumpsters in Britain) It was no where near interfering with kick-starter.

Did you ever get that bike back, PJ?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 18, 2018, 16:20:53

Forgot to answer initial question. Nope, but no one has tried to register it either. Friend in Britain checks things for me every so often. If it turns up I'll have to give him legal powers to recover and prosecute the perps. It's a bit expensive to do but still cheaper than me flying home (around £350~£400 or less than $500 instead of $1000~1300 airfare)

I used the XL250 swingarm on my second 360.  It was a super easy swap to dual shocks.  And like PJ said, I also used 042 copper base gasket to get deck height right. 

I'd forgotten you did 378 conversion.  :-[
Couldn't remeber what swing arm you got but remembered you said somewhere about a 'straight swap' (or something close?)
No one believes a relatively small capacity increase can have such a dramatic effect  - until they do it.
It's so good you almost want to keep it a secret when chasing down much bigger bikes on twisty roads  ;D
(Guy on $23,000 'Paul Smart' Replica Ducati was VERY surprised, his buddy on the 'cheap Duc - about $18,000 couldn't keep up)
 I guess ability counts for more than how much money you have - sometimes  8)
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-180118120331.jpeg)

this is my inspiration for exhaust, not sure what or who this picture is from. but I want to have the mufflers look like the old super sport 4cyl bikes but just on the one side

I like those pipes, from the angle of manifold end they look 'vintage' Triumph?
 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 18, 2018, 16:26:27
I'd forgotten you did 378 conversion.  :-[
No one believes a relatively small capacity increase can have such a dramatic effect  - until they do it.
It's so good you almost want to keep it a secret when chasing down much bigger bikes on twisty roads  ;D
(Guy on $23,000 'Paul Smart' Replica Ducati was VERY surprised, his buddy on the 'cheap Duc - about $18,000 couldn't keep up)
 I guess ability counts for more than how much money you have - sometimes  8)

I am really set on wringing a reasonable (daily ridden) amount of performance out of this bike after a friend on a newer cb900 was able to beat me in a gentle race by a good 3-4 seconds. I know riding skill played a part too as he is a much more experienced rider than me, but there were sections I could have used a little more acceleration. (I plan to go with a 37 tooth rear sprocket too
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 18, 2018, 16:32:22
I'm running an XL250 rear swinger and wheel, which also has an XL250 42t sprocket.  It will get your front end off the ground, but don't expect to top 80mph.  That's the downside, but it will wheelie which has it's own brand of fun.. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 18, 2018, 16:33:19
I've only ever used 17/34 sprockets. 37  rear may be too much with extra 22cc. You have already got clutch springs from BorTec?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 18, 2018, 16:35:30
They shift way too short with the bigger sprocket, too.  At least the 42t.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 18, 2018, 16:58:49
I've only ever used 17/34 sprockets. 37  rear may be too much with extra 22cc. You have already got clutch springs from BorTec?

I ordered Barnett clutch springs, BoreTech seams to be going out of business, selling what's left only.
I have a 35, and 34 tooth sprocket already, so I will have the ability to change things up if I need to - 520 conversion BTW
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 18, 2018, 23:26:57
Cool stuff, I'm doing 520 on 'Blue Bike' to get the extra tyre clearance
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 20, 2018, 00:52:24
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-190118224940.jpeg)

pre-cleaning. Anyone got a recommendation for sending heads out for valve seat work and installing new guides? I think the guy I have locally will do it for $250 which I really dont want to have to buy the tools as much as i want to do some things myself, even the installation of guides will require tools I don't have

Since I plan to port the head I think I should also do this BEFORE I get service done, right?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 20, 2018, 17:42:18
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-200118154044.jpeg)

Not sure how to tackle this should I grind these off and how?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 20, 2018, 17:49:01
There's a strong argument for keeping the center stand brackets.  You can slide the pin out and remove the center stand for riding, then put it back in when you need to service the bike.  I kept mine.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Jan 20, 2018, 17:52:32
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-200118154044.jpeg)

Not sure how to tackle this should I grind these off and how?

Centerstand clamps.  Absolutely NOT.  Keep them for service, carb tuning, chain adj,  tire work, etc. 
I have my center stand sitting on the shelf.  Stick it on just when needed w a 5/8 x 7" bolt, no spring or nothing.  I don't even bother putting a nut on the bolt.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 20, 2018, 18:11:48
bike never had a center stand, will have to find one - I realized it will make some things easier to maintain if I keep the loops and just make it removable like suggested


so what I did was cut off the "stop" and the spring holding loop, then ground the little bump on the bottom off nice and flush so it's a little less noticeable

going to weigh the frame tonight wheni get home - curious how much a stock frame weighs (as in I should have weighed it before I startet cutting and grinding)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 20, 2018, 18:51:21
Cool stuff, I'm doing 520 on 'Blue Bike' to get the extra tyre clearance

what size tire? I was able to get about 1mm clearance with a 130 tire on the 360 with stock rear rim.
Not going to do that, 110 rear I think with a 2.15 rim. Not sure yet
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 20, 2018, 22:04:30
There's a strong argument for keeping the center stand brackets.  You can slide the pin out and remove the center stand for riding, then put it back in when you need to service the bike.  I kept mine.

+1
I've removed the brackets and regretted it later (actually not too much later, about 3~4 days into build but 3~4 months after chopping them off)

what size tire? I was able to get about 1mm clearance with a 130 tire on the 360 with stock rear rim.
Not going to do that, 110 rear I think with a 2.15 rim. Not sure yet

You really need minimum of 3" rim with a 130 tyre (WM 5 I think?)
I'm using a WM3 with a 4.50 trail tyre but it's a 'narrow' 4.50 at just over 4.25" fitted
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 20, 2018, 22:35:05
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-200118202938.jpeg)

here's what I did to center stand mount. removed stop and cut down to be less noticeable

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-200118202915.jpeg)

and the "complete" waiting for rear hoop (also still need to chop stock rear tank mount off
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 23, 2018, 15:07:18
Yep but I'm really slow 6weeks to 3 monts turn around(too much other stuff going on plus (gasp) I'm getting older
You need to drill the 'extra' holes in rotor so they 'overlap' slightly, that way pads stay flat and rotor stays 'clean'

shop is quoting me $280 to do valve job and install bronze guides then charge me $51 each for 35mm intakes and $37 each for stock type (but stainless swirl polished) exhaust valves

shaping up to be an expensive endevour but I'm determined to make this bike what it should be

gotta find that drill pattern I had to get the other holes into the rotor
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 23, 2018, 22:28:56
You already have the radial lines on rotor from use, use them for the various hole pattern. All you need  is to make sure there is 'overlap' so entire surface  has a hole' It keeps pads 'flat' as they wear in. At present you would have ridges where the holes are
I can't remember how to link directly to a post but hopefully this should get you tyere. http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.450 (http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.475).
Go to post 475
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 24, 2018, 00:13:27
You already have the radial lines on rotor from use, use them for the various hole pattern. All you need  is to make sure there is 'overlap' so entire surface  has a hole' It keeps pads 'flat' as they wear in. At present you would have ridges where the holes are
I can't remember how to link directly to a post but hopefully this should get you tyere. http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.450 (http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.475).
Go to post 475

good point, I think I will probably  do two larger holes spaced evenly in the areas were there are gaps
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 24, 2018, 11:47:24
That actually works well and could be 'different' enough if substantially larger (1/2" compared to 1/4") You don't need as many oversize holes and balance can be a problem if your not careful with spacing. I would probably do 4~5 (or more) depending on the hole pattern you already have
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 24, 2018, 13:55:49
That actually works well and could be 'different' enough if substantially larger (1/2" compared to 1/4") You don't need as many oversize holes and balance can be a problem if your not careful with spacing. I would probably do 4~5 (or more) depending on the hole pattern you already have

I plan to balance the rotor when I am done, as well as slim it down to min spec - I am not 100% convinced it's not a bad idea, but 1mm of stainless has got to weigh a lot. your pictures also gave me more inspiration for drilling the area in the "hub" part of the rotor. I do have 2 spare rotors both NOS and so if I "ruin" this one with my hacking and drilling it's not that big of a deal. same with the sprocket cover I am drilling up and rear brake "thingy" I really want to give a nod to the "speedholers" that drilled every little ounce they could at the sacrifice of safety to go that much faster, without being unsafe - i want it to look that way
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 24, 2018, 17:37:32
I did a dual disc conversion on my XS 650 several years ago. XS disks are known to be stupid heavy but I didn't have means to thin them at the time.  ( glad I didn't as tey are quite soft stainless, noticeable wear after 12,000 miles)
I did a pattern on 1/2" holes which got rid of about 2lbs just in the rotors. Fitted Suzuki 4 piston calipers as tey are lighter than original Yamaha plus it kinda 'standardised' my brake pad stock (fitted Katana front end on 360 plus have a Katana to play with)
With the brake pedal, it has spot welds holding two halves where it fits splined shaft if I remember right? I would have the top and bottom welded (actually I would just weld it up myself,  but ,you need a welder for that  ;) )
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 30, 2018, 21:46:13
I did a dual disc conversion on my XS 650 several years ago. XS disks are known to be stupid heavy but I didn't have means to thin them at the time.  ( glad I didn't as tey are quite soft stainless, noticeable wear after 12,000 miles)
I did a pattern on 1/2" holes which got rid of about 2lbs just in the rotors. Fitted Suzuki 4 piston calipers as tey are lighter than original Yamaha plus it kinda 'standardised' my brake pad stock (fitted Katana front end on 360 plus have a Katana to play with)
With the brake pedal, it has spot welds holding two halves where it fits splined shaft if I remember right? I would have the top and bottom welded (actually I would just weld it up myself,  but ,you need a welder for that  ;) )

I almost was gonna do a dual disc on this bike, have 550 forks and all the stuff to do it but I realized how much weight that would add and decided against it. I may throw it on a CB350 project that isn't focused on weight savings
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 30, 2018, 21:58:14
Don't do it.  There isn't enough bike.  I built the rotors to go to dual disc, installed them both, then pulled one off.  You definitely don't need the unsprung weight.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Jan 31, 2018, 10:50:13
Early 35mm CX500 forks with dual rotors,
Much lighter than 70's set-up plus more than adequate on a 350/360 (or even a 400 f  ;) )
The dual disc conversion I did on my XS650 used 'single rotor' rotors as they were larger diameter than the dual rotor set up
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Jan 31, 2018, 11:16:39
Early 35mm CX500 forks with dual rotors,
Much lighter than 70's set-up plus more than adequate on a 350/360 (or even a 400 f  ;) )
The dual disc conversion I did on my XS650 used 'single rotor' rotors as they were larger diameter than the dual rotor set up
I used EX500 rotors which are even lighter.  It's still unnecessary weight, when one rotor and a dual pot caliper provide plenty of stop.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 31, 2018, 13:46:23
Early 35mm CX500 forks with dual rotors,
Much lighter than 70's set-up plus more than adequate on a 350/360 (or even a 400 f  ;) )
The dual disc conversion I did on my XS650 used 'single rotor' rotors as they were larger diameter than the dual rotor set up

we have a cx500 sitting around so that may be a better way to go. the 350 will be more of a bobber and focused on looks rather than performance (i know i know) but I'm doing a lot of performance stuff to this bike already... I probably should have swapped the two bikes around actually

im gonna attempt the port job myself with a dremel, i've done it before on a set of Honda SOHC 4cyl heads from a car - so I sorta know what i am doing here. may take a while with a rotary tool but i dont have access to a compressor so that's what i get
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Jan 31, 2018, 20:43:19
Early 35mm CX500 forks with dual rotors,
Much lighter than 70's set-up plus more than adequate on a 350/360 (or even a 400 f  ;) )
The dual disc conversion I did on my XS650 used 'single rotor' rotors as they were larger diameter than the dual rotor set up

also, choice between larger intake valves - or getting a new set of standard valves from say common motor and use the money saved to get barnett clutch discs instead of EBC ones ?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Feb 02, 2018, 16:58:53


im gonna attempt the port job myself with a dremel, i've done it before on a set of Honda SOHC 4cyl heads from a car - so I sorta know what i am doing here. may take a while with a rotary tool but i dont have access to a compressor so that's what i get

You would be a lot better off getting te Harbor Freight Tools  electric die grinder and a router speed controller. With 20% off coupon it will be a lot cheaper(particularly if you ave any 1/4" shank burrs)

I would use stock clutch discs with heavy duty springs. Nothing wrong with EBC, I've used them 'forever (European Brake Corporation -I'm British) Unless the original discs are actually damaged or worn below minimum thickness, just re-use them. The springs are almost always the problem. ( so far, I've never replaced clutch discs in any of my 360/378's)
 I would get the oversize intake valves, you don't need oversize exhausts
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Feb 04, 2018, 20:36:34
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-040218183551.jpeg)

painting top half of the blocks and jugs - I had painted the head this aluminum color but looking at it now I think I'll paint it all black

I chose gloss because it will be easier to clean off, and accent the polished side covers and exhaust I plan to use
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Feb 25, 2018, 23:09:51
still doing stuff. just going slow.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-250218210235.jpeg)

I made the plunge and chopped off the rear shock mounts. This was necessary because no matter what seat I use (this or the tuffside, or the dime city "brass cafe") I didnt want the hoop so far back over the wheel (another reason I chose the longer CJ swingarm)

gonna weld slugs for new shock mounts, just not sure if I want to weld them to the frame tube, or create and weld them to a flange.

suggestions? examples?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on Feb 26, 2018, 13:26:16
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/111104-190118224940.jpeg)

pre-cleaning. Anyone got a recommendation for sending heads out for valve seat work and installing new guides? I think the guy I have locally will do it for $250 which I really dont want to have to buy the tools as much as i want to do some things myself, even the installation of guides will require tools I don't have

Since I plan to port the head I think I should also do this BEFORE I get service done, right?

Not sure if you got an answer to this, but have you determined that the guides actually need to be replaced? Honda valve guides typically don't show a whole lot of wear.  You can do a  quick and dirty check by checking to see how much side play the valves have.  If the valves are good and not worn on the stems, you may be OK to just get the valves and seats cut on a SERDI machine.  A good machine shop guy should be able to determine the amount of play there.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Feb 26, 2018, 14:37:14
Not sure if you got an answer to this, but have you determined that the guides actually need to be replaced? Honda valve guides typically don't show a whole lot of wear.  You can do a  quick and dirty check by checking to see how much side play the valves have.  If the valves are good and not worn on the stems, you may be OK to just get the valves and seats cut on a SERDI machine.  A good machine shop guy should be able to determine the amount of play there.

Thanks! the Machine shop told me that I shouldn't need to replace the guides. I was simply wanting an upgrade to the entire engine - through his experience I have come to the conclusion that the bronze guides aren't an upgrade anyway (He told me Honda used Iron for a reason) so I'm happy that I can save about $100 there. decided to spend that on 35mm intake valves
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Feb 26, 2018, 14:37:27
Personally I prefer Neway to Serdi.
 Serdi is faster but somewhat limited to the available cutter plus sizes are 'fixed' in the cutter blade ($90.00 per cutter last time I checked in 2009)
Neway are crazy expensive ($200+ each) but cover such a wide range it kinda evens things out when you doing 'special' sizes/cuts/angles plus you can mix & match They are a lot slower to use though which makes a lot of difference when your paying someone else to do the work
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Feb 26, 2018, 15:50:48
the bronze guides aren't an upgrade anyway (He told me Honda used Iron for a reason) so I'm happy that I can save about $100 there.

Not saying you should spend your $100.  If isn't broke, don't fix it.  But the reason Honda used cast iron guides over bronze is expense, not performance.  It's significantly cheaper to use iron and it's much easier to work with in a production setting. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on Feb 26, 2018, 15:57:42
Cast iron is to some degree self lubricating and has an open structure that holds oil.  But aren't Honda valve guides made from sintered steel which is tougher.  Same as used in Ferrari motors AFAIK.

Tough as all get out.  last forever and come already fitted.  :-)

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Feb 26, 2018, 16:17:11
I machined my own valve guides for my BMW.  One thing cool about these guides is they don't require a separate rubber seal. 

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170318/ec2960e5c2958bd7256ab8fb2812c495.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Feb 26, 2018, 21:37:43
Not saying you should spend your $100.  If isn't broke, don't fix it.  But the reason Honda used cast iron guides over bronze is expense, not performance.  It's significantly cheaper to use iron and it's much easier to work with in a production setting.

basically longevity is why. and i'm fine with that. I dont see a performance benefit to bronze
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Feb 26, 2018, 22:06:23
There isn't any performance benefit if the stock guides are in good condition. I never change stock guides unless they are worn out (usually from poor service running dirty oil for years)  Not many 360's got high enough mileage to wear out guides but I have seen problems when heads were removed and 'stored' without valves, guides can rust in the bore then be oversize when 'cleaned up'  ::)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Feb 28, 2018, 14:44:55
ordered up a 520 o-ring chain conversion kit from Moto-Madness Customs - gold chain and a 16f-35r sprocket

I already have a 34 and a 37 sprocket, thought about getting a spare 17 front for highway riding when i go down the the bay area for the DSG this Sept, but there is time for that.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 01, 2018, 10:18:11
With stock (17/34) a 378 will hold a constant 80~90+mph with max speed around 120mph+ (very dependent on conditions/terrain) so 16 / 35 will give ludicrous acceleration assuming you can keep the front wheel down  ;D
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on Mar 01, 2018, 12:03:56
I actually went the opposite direction on my 378. 18 tooth front sprocket from a CB450 and 33 tooth rear sprocket from a CJ.

I can hit 70mph in 2nd gear at 10,500 RPM. Theoretical top speed of 142.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 01, 2018, 14:46:16
Time to build a Bonneville streamliner  ;)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on Mar 01, 2018, 14:55:41
Time to build a Bonneville streamliner  ;)

OK. Fine. You've convinced me. lol
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 01, 2018, 20:39:47
With stock (17/34) a 378 will hold a constant 80~90+mph with max speed around 120mph+ (very dependent on conditions/terrain) so 16 / 35 will give ludicrous acceleration assuming you can keep the front wheel down  ;D

I dont have a freeway within 10 miles of me, all back country winding roads, so i am leaning more towards the lower gearing - also considering the exhaust I plan to use won't be best for lower end power I want to stay higher in the RPMs
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: 540Nova on Mar 01, 2018, 20:45:59
I dont have a freeway within 10 miles of me, all back country winding roads, so i am leaning more towards the lower gearing - also considering the exhaust I plan to use won't be best for lower end power I want to stay higher in the RPMs
Low end torque is what you want for winding back country roads.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 02, 2018, 00:12:39
Low end torque is what you want for winding back country roads.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

that may be true for something that redlines at 6500, this bike will be in the 11k range redline - I'll be spending all my time above 6 or 7 k.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on Mar 02, 2018, 00:51:04
That does make for a lot of hard work on your left toe as well as the motor.  Twisties are generally best with more low down torque and less revving its nuts off and gear changing up and down.  Just sayin'

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 02, 2018, 01:33:15
That does make for a lot of hard work on your left toe as well as the motor.  Twisties are generally best with more low down torque and less revving its nuts off and gear changing up and down.  Just sayin'

I'm sure you guys are probably right on this - Im also paving my own way with some of what i am doing, while drawing on the knowledge and experience of others - which is why I ordered other sprocket combinations in case what I have going doesn't work to my liking. Weather in Norcal doesn't look to be slowing down any, I'm still getting all my parts together in boxes for assembly. My powdercoater source has gone off the deep end of divorce - so im stuck finding another coater or painting the frame and bits. I'm OK with either option really.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 02, 2018, 11:52:19
That does make for a lot of hard work on your left toe as well as the motor.  Twisties are generally best with more low down torque and less revving its nuts off and gear changing up and down.  Just sayin'

Depends who or what your chasing.  ;D
Guy on the $23,000 Paul Smart replica Ducati was 'quite impressed' with the 1974 'CB360' (on original tyres) his buddy on the 'cheaper ($18,000 Duc )was just pissed though  8)
I would still run 'stock 17/34 or even 17/33 except on my 'trail' version which has 'oversize' tyres and will be used 'in the dirt' (Blue Bike)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 02, 2018, 15:10:04
Depends who or what your chasing.  ;D
Guy on the $23,000 Paul Smart replica Ducati was 'quite impressed' with the 1974 'CB360' (on original tyres) his buddy on the 'cheaper ($18,000 Duc )was just pissed though  8)
I would still run 'stock 17/34 or even 17/33 except on my 'trail' version which has 'oversize' tyres and will be used 'in the dirt' (Blue Bike)

why do dirt bikes use suck large sprockets? like 47t on my XR400 and the GS250 I got has a huge sprocket as well
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Mar 02, 2018, 16:04:06
why do dirt bikes use suck large sprockets? like 47t on my XR400 and the GS250 I got has a huge sprocket as well
Dirt bikes need low end torque for getting over stuff and to climb trees. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 02, 2018, 19:44:13
Dirt bikes need low end torque for getting over stuff and to climb trees.
Plus, 130mph on dirt is REALLY REALLY SCARY.
Don't ever gear a Maico 490 with 17/43 sprockets , 15/58 is 'safer' ;) (only use 3rd, 4th,5th unless it's a real gnarly section)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 05, 2018, 13:05:25
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/350657612272107520/419915712778469387/tray.PNG)

I have some carbon fiber panels and tube laying around, gonna make a battery tray out of it all to fit under the seat. spent some time in Fusion360 planning it all out. using a metri-pack 4 circuit box, OEM starter solenoid, and an AntiGravity 4cell. Probably wont use the carbon fiber top 'bar' to hold the battery down, maybe just some velcro (it's not going anywhere) will weld some tabs on the seat rails to hold it in place about 6mm below.

the extra two 10mm holes are for a toggle and push button switch (ign and start) I REALLY want a motogadget m-lock but can't justify the extra $150 I'm already deep into this project right now and haven't even purchased the wheels and tires or exhaust tubing yet.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on Mar 05, 2018, 13:08:20
Let me be the first to say that I love the carbon look.

Now that's that over with, don't overlook the functionality of using a metal tray. The easy grounding of all the components mounted there make for a pretty clean wiring option.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 05, 2018, 13:47:42
Let me be the first to say that I love the carbon look.

Now that's that over with, don't overlook the functionality of using a metal tray. The easy grounding of all the components mounted there make for a pretty clean wiring option.

I considered this, and the tabs that will be welded to the frame to mount the tray at all four corners (those 6mm holes) will be where I make the ground.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 08, 2018, 23:00:46
rear shock mounts taken off, make room for the *MUCH* tighter seat hoop.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/421501100701777922/20180308_135944.jpg)

mocked up and then cut these from 3/16" plate.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/421501100063981578/20180308_140017.jpg)

this is the idea:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/421501098873061376/20180308_140039.jpg)

Now, here is where I am a little bit skittish. The TC bros rear subframe kits and the Cognito-Moto shock mount kits all use this same idea... a 3/16" thick plate cut and shaped to which you weld your shock mounts. its a good bit thicker and heavier than the stock setup (but the stock setup is boxed)

I have plenty more material to cut more of these plates and make a boxed section, but I am wondering if this really is strong enough?

(Dime City Cycles universal cafe racer shock mount slugs) :

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/421502435841015808/20180308_130346.jpg)



EDIT: sorry about your neck, for some reason all images were rotated
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 09, 2018, 17:38:21
You n eed to remove a little 'triangle' so where tubes meet doesn't get welded/stressed and gusset becomes more of a brace
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 10, 2018, 00:04:28
You n eed to remove a little 'triangle' so where tubes meet doesn't get welded/stressed and gusset becomes more of a brace

you're talking about the buttweld? yea, I did end up doing that, getting welded tomorrow so will post back updates then


spent today polishing

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/421880490040229888/20180309_175842.jpg)

pleased with the results, considering how back these looked before! (including a huge gouge out of the clutch cover right where the brake pedal kissed it)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 13, 2018, 17:11:20
Got lots of parts in the mail today: teaser until i can photograph them all tomorrow evening in the garage

Clip-on handlebars
Cables (shorter clutch, new throttles)
Grips
Levers
Misc hardware (nearly every bolt is replaced with a stainless socket head)
Tachometer (already modified to have a NS indicator)
Rear Shocks
speedy seigle aluminum rear brake stay
Exhaust adaptors (until custom exhaust is welded up by a pro)
35mm KPMI intake valves
Clutch Springs, Clutch discs
bronze swing arm bushings
tapered bearings for steering head
Fuze block, vintage cloth covered wire, battery
universal 12v 5ohm canister coils, new wire and caps

still LOTS to do before she's ready for the road but I am very excited. Also here in Northern California we've been hit with snow and rain pretty much solidly for weeks. Might get to ride the end of April before the local Vintage bike show


one problem I foresee is that the Rick's stator doesn't have the mark for the timing. Not sure how I am going to time this bitch because I don't have the original stator any more
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 14, 2018, 11:06:55
Unless you really need new clutch plates I would stick with stock. They seem to work better (or just as bad  ;D ) as anything else out there when you have 'race' springs fitted and will take several years of abuse (or several thousand miles) Should save you around $50.00 you can spend on something else (better tyres?)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 14, 2018, 13:37:51
Unless you really need new clutch plates I would stick with stock. They seem to work better (or just as bad  ;D ) as anything else out there when you have 'race' springs fitted and will take several years of abuse (or several thousand miles) Should save you around $50.00 you can spend on something else (better tyres?)

Good info, I seam to remember you telling me before and I measured the stock ones - they are at the very limit of tollerance so I decided to get new ones. I saved some money on the seat that I really wanted (tuffside) and bought a cheasy ebay universal cafe seat in the mean time.. that extra $300 will go to tires (tyres). I dont want to comprimise with the xs wheels, so I am going to wait on the wheels until I can afford some sun rims - but at 3x the cost that may be next year. Biggest fudge I have right now is where to find a cable for this remote master cylinder setup


regarding the timing mark, can I just "guess" the mark on the ricks stator based on location of factory ones from a picture or do I need to buy a factory used one from ebay to time this thing
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 15, 2018, 10:25:16
You need to line up TDC accurately  then just make a mark on stator. An automotive style bolt on plate should work (but you will have to fabricate something)
SUN rims? Any particular reason? Probably overkill unless your going dirt track racing or using WM4/5 rear and need matching front? The Mikes XS WM3 are fine for weight/use on 360 (or XS650  ;D )
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Mar 15, 2018, 10:31:16
Most dirt bikes use a WM3 rear rim, and they go through a lot of abuse and mount a decent width tire.  They're usually 1.85 in the front, which for a 19" rim would be a W2.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 15, 2018, 14:01:03
You need to line up TDC accurately  then just make a mark on stator. An automotive style bolt on plate should work (but you will have to fabricate something)
SUN rims? Any particular reason? Probably overkill unless your going dirt track racing or using WM4/5 rear and need matching front? The Mikes XS WM3 are fine for weight/use on 360 (or XS650  ;D )

Ah, so set engine to TDC left Cyl - then make the mark on the stator where the LT mark lines up. Good idea.

also, Sun rims are not as tall as the Mikes wheels... I really don't like how tall they are. That's it - vanity only
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 15, 2018, 14:08:18
Thought it may be something like that.
Mikes used to do 'smooth' rims but haven't got on site for a long time and think they may no longer be available?
 Use 18" WM 3 both ends, works well with noticeable handling improvement or 18" WM2 front, WM3 rear, either set up seems to work well
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 15, 2018, 14:37:57
Thought it may be something like that.
Mikes used to do 'smooth' rims but haven't got on site for a long time and think they may no longer be available?
 Use 18" WM 3 both ends, works well with noticeable handling improvement or 18" WM2 front, WM3 rear, either set up seems to work well

I'm doing my best to be metric - but WM2 is 1.85" correct?

I planned to use a 1.85 front, and 2.15 rear with a 3.50-4.00 rear and a 3.00-3.25 front
I was going to get Metzeler Block C tires but they aren't great for grip - I realize there is going to be some sacrifice for a "vintage look" tire... I refuse to use the firestones EVERYONE uses they are trash, but anything has to be better than the ChenShen C-max I have


EDIT:

OK, so I checked their site, and the "WM type" seams to be the "smooth" wheel I am looking for - the photo seams identical to the "H" profile wheel so that may have lead to my confusion.

but they do not list a 1.85x18 36 spoke WM type wheel
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 15, 2018, 20:46:29
Yep, 1.85" internal on flange
When Mike was running site it was relatively easy to get in touch and get real answers to just about any question with the parts. I heard  several years ago that it's now almost impossible to get a decent answer to parts questions? (since about 2011~12) No idea if things have improved as my XS's have been 'on hold' for several years. The XS rear rim on front drum hub is a direct fit (XS rear hub flange is same dimension as Honda, I measured rear XS hub I have ) Fitting to a smaller disk hub needs edges of spoke holes relieved or there will be a 'kink' at the rim leading to possible spoke breakage. Rear hub on 360's, although smaller than XS isn't enough to make a difference.
You can use WM 3 on front, tyre 'spreads' slightly but even a 90/90 is a good fit (wouldn't use a 75-80/90 though)
If your using 3.00~3.25 it will be a major improvement over stock rims
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 16, 2018, 02:13:05
as promised. PARTS!

Speedy Siegl Racing Aluminium Brake Stay, Bronze swingarm bushings, and new shock mount bushings - also the CJ360 swingarm with it's enclosed axle housing and about 1.5" longer than the CB version
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067222475112448/20180315_194555.jpg)

DCC Micro Gauge - its hard to tell how small this thing is... 1.9" diameter, so awesome.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424066826775953408/20180315_195725.jpg)

Clip Ons, GP Levers (cable brake and clutch) - Biltwell grips
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424066969638010891/20180315_195424.jpg)

Brake Lines and Pipe - Goodridge Sniper II line - modified pipe to fit. will go the remote master under tank
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067005445046272/20180315_195253.jpg)

Barnett Springs & New EBC discs little extra grab, also drilled out the clutch basket for better cooling
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424066896518840320/20180315_195616.jpg)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067381552218112/20180313_125243.jpg)

Rick's High Output Stator Kit - Rick's is an awesome company and their kits are almost required for these bikes (especially since i am running a LiFePo4 battery
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067337239527424/20180313_180059.jpg)

EMGO universal Coils - hoping this work - had to move coils due to location of master cylinder so these came up
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067182083964938/20180315_194713.jpg)

Seal Kit - not much to discuss, it's just a seal kit
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424066930580652033/20180315_195524.jpg)

Motion Pro clutch cable for shorter bars (10" shorter than stock)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424066866429034507/20180315_195646.jpg)

Shocks - 4Into1 Supplied these for me, they are adjustable for damping, preload, and length - also progressive
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067082389291008/20180315_195022.jpg)

All Balls Tapered steering head bearings. Never knew mine were so bad until I actually pulled it apart and some balls were MISSING!
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067110600441856/20180315_194906.jpg)

Lani hooked me up wit this copper head gasket - 69.5mm bore, .042" thick solid copper. Waiting for pistons back from shop before I have to order base gasket from him too
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067146092511233/20180315_194758.jpg)



also, rear seat hoop all welded up! no wjust have to weld the shock tabs and mounts - figuring out how to get it all square
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/424067484857925632/20180315_200117.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Mar 16, 2018, 06:40:30
(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-200816163635.png)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 16, 2018, 10:02:18
Shouldn't have any issues with EMGO coils, I've used them a couple of times. What throttle are you going to use?
While your welding on frame you may want to get a piece of box section welded in where 'saddle tubes' meet top frame I use 2"x1"x 1/16" wall thickness
I got some pictures on 'Build to Blog' reply 468
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.450 (http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.468)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 16, 2018, 13:19:45
Shouldn't have any issues with EMGO coils, I've used them a couple of times. What throttle are you going to use?
While your welding on frame you may want to get a piece of box section welded in where 'saddle tubes' meet top frame I use 2"x1"x 1/16" wall thickness
I got some pictures on 'Build to Blog' reply 468
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.450 (http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.468)

Throttle is a Motion Pro Honda CR "push pull" throttle - and new cables by them as well. I'm debating a single cable throttle to clean the bars up but I really don't mind the dual throttle cables it looks mean

also, I plan to weld some 3/4" angle at that spot to mount the electronics tray I showed you, should strengthen it up real nice back there
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 17, 2018, 15:34:12
RANT:


got my order from moto-madness
i ordered a 520 chain conversion with a gold EK o-ring chain, 35t aluminium rear and 16t steel front sprocket. 3 weeks after nothing showed up I emailed the owner and got an immediate response, they were out of 38t sprockets. Ok, but I ordered a 35t!!! sorted out, order arrived - sprockets only in the mail, look great... drop shipped from rebel gears . That's irritating, I would have just ordered direct. No chain. so I emailed again - chain on a separate order to arrive today, which it did. Drop shipped from Vortex Racing - again, I would have just ordered DIRECT. Opened the box and it's the WRONG DAMN CHAIN.

I'm very annoyed. Next time I will order direct from the manufacturers, thought moto-madness would take care of me but nope.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 17, 2018, 16:05:05
Welcome to the world of 'instant Internet experts'
It made me mad for a long time, I deleted over 1100 posts on this site when I first joined as too many 'experts were flaming me for telling it as it is plus didn't even log in for several months.
Many  of the 'flamers' are still here and 'well respected' but now repeat the things I told them 9~10 yrs ago so I guess they were willing to learn (but still haven't said sorry for being assholes)
I haven't used 'closing' cables on CV carbs since 1978 (except on customer bikes - never know how bad maintenance will be there)
Only time I've ever had an issue was on 1968 Honda CD175, water got in cable and wind chill froze cable wide open. Killing ignition stopped bike and 10 mins standing  still the engine heat unfroze cable. Went a lot slower the last 30 miles home (coming back from 1976 Dragon Rally in North Wales)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 19, 2018, 18:09:34
cut down the instrument mounts off the top triple clamp. probably will finish this a little nicer - but I would eventually like to get a Ripple Rock dropped triple kit (https://www.ripplerockracers.com/product/honda-cb350-72-73-cb360350f400f-dropped-billet-aluminum-top-triple/) just not liking the $700 price tag right now

I am undecided about shaving down the bar mount holes as well - not that I will use them for anything. just more work

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/425399214156283904/20180315_195959.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 20, 2018, 20:55:47
Almost forgot, remember to soak the friction plates in the engine oil your going to use for 24 hrs or so. I used to 'wet' them and then put the set in a freezer bag (uses less oil plus keeps the dust off)
That's really nice yoke set but $700.00 is way too much for me (seems pretty expensive  anyway) Of course, you have to start with some very large (expensive) chunks of alloy to be able to whittle down to correct size and shape. Haven't priced 2" thick 6061 for years, it put me off making them though. I've seen a few CB550 and 750's where the holes were plugged and welded then carved down to give a 'factory race shop' look but never on 350/360
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 23, 2018, 00:14:17
Almost forgot, remember to soak the friction plates in the engine oil your going to use for 24 hrs or so. I used to 'wet' them and then put the set in a freezer bag (uses less oil plus keeps the dust off)
That's really nice yoke set but $700.00 is way too much for me (seems pretty expensive  anyway) Of course, you have to start with some very large (expensive) chunks of alloy to be able to whittle down to correct size and shape. Haven't priced 2" thick 6061 for years, it put me off making them though. I've seen a few CB550 and 750's where the holes were plugged and welded then carved down to give a 'factory race shop' look but never on 350/360

it will be almost a month before I'm ready for the assembly phase. I remember from the manual that the plates should be soaked for a minimum 1 hour. but I figured overnight wouldn't hurt it

now, I worked late into the night welding, and I'm not very good at it but I am proud of what I have accomplished


The bracket for the under seat electronics and battery tray, still needs holes drilled - spacers made of carbon fiber will have the tray sitting about 10mm below the frame
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/426577128885190657/20180322_141023.jpg)

here is the tab for the front brake cable. Master cylinder will bolt onto a bracket utilizing the original coil mount holes - non-standard coils will be mounted lower probably where the keyswitch/horn mount holes are - again, hole needs drilled and tapped for cable adjuster
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/426577129476456448/20180322_141030.jpg)

and the piŤce de rťsistance: shock mount tabs and frame hoop FINALLY all welded up and square. this was much more difficult than I thought it would be but in the end it turned out great and I don't recommend anyone do it. it was probably completely unnecessary and a pain in the ass - shock mount slugs still need to be welded, once swing arm is done and mounted so I can figure out how long they need to be
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/426577277027876866/IMG_20180321_220547_021.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 23, 2018, 11:00:43
Rear shock mounts are really bad.
You should not have the corner welded it creates a stress point. (I tried to point it out earlier) You may be able to drill a hole in corner to 'convert' it to a buttress? All ther stress is now going into centre of tube.
Find Tony Foals book on chassis design, the relevant pages are available online and maybe on his site? (may also be on, Euro Spares Michael Moore's site?)
I looked it up
http://www.eurospares.com/frame.htm
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 23, 2018, 14:51:37
Rear shock mounts are really bad.
You should not have the corner welded it creates a stress point. (I tried to point it out earlier) You may be able to drill a hole in corner to 'convert' it to a buttress? All ther stress is now going into centre of tube.
Find Tony Foals book on chassis design, the relevant pages are available online and maybe on his site? (may also be on, Euro Spares Michael Moore's site?)
I looked it up
http://www.eurospares.com/frame.htm

I won't argue with you - you've been doing this much longer. I will have to look further into it.

I did read through Toney Foals frame mods page (https://tonyfoale.com/Articles/Frame.mod/KawaMods.htm) and it covered folded gussets and a way to stiffen the frame and basically said that triangle gussets as mounts have very little effect - I brought your point up to a fab shop (they don't do motorcycles, but they build offroad buggies and race trucks) and they said that amount of flex there will be near non-existent because anything behind that triangle bears no load, none - not even a tail lamp will be there

I pulled some inspiration from a DCC build, and This Build (http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=68730.0) which both seam to have done the same thing I have
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 23, 2018, 18:47:17
If you really look close at the 'Sausage' (trust me, the original 'Savage' badge didn't look like 'savage')
Anyway, if you look close you can see the triangle is on the outside centre line of tube plus looks a lot like the original. You buggy builders are doing whats cheap rather than right. Any suspension mount is a high load area, you also have torque twisting the plate and 'flexing' weld as it's going to be offset. Correct thing to do would be make 4 plates total, weld them on the outside center of tube then have a bar to mount shock.Moving the mount inwards about 1" will also put them at an angle they won't like, the rubbers will be at or above maximum flex (unless you move lower mounts inwards or use Heim joints both ends of shock body to compensate for the angle)
 I think Husqvarnan MX/Enduro bikes used that type of mount to narrow seating area, probably around 1980?
 It will work as is but is highly likely to fail in use.
More bad news,
Diaphragm is damaged, looks like a screwdriver mark where someone tried to pry top off carb or something?
third pic is of JBM diaphragm, still trying to get a new one under guarantee. I've never had one break before but looks like the 'guarantee' is 'your SOL buy another one' so I'm no longer recommending them
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 23, 2018, 18:59:28
I have some turned mounts for the shocks, that stick out about 18mm, the shocks won't be at an angle - they will be straight as they are supposed to. Also, the mounts are not on the center of the tube, they are about 3/4 the way to the outside on the top tube, and cross the center line for the down tubes (since they are at a weird angle)

I brought this up in my post while mocking it up, that I was considering using 4 plates on the outside of the frame how you describe, but decided against it as I saw 10 builds the way I have done it, and only 1 the way you described. TC bros, Dime City Cycles, Cognito Moto all have "kits" that do it this way, and i called Cognito, they assured me it was plenty strong for a bike shock mount. if it were indeed a gusset on a frame for strength or a car - things would be different


I very much appretiate your input and I am not dissagreing or discounting it. We've talked about "experts" before that steer people in the wrong direction and I know you're not one of them. i just feel confident in what i've done so far. If it turns out to be a problem (and it will be monitored) then I can always redo it... it's just metal
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Mar 23, 2018, 19:20:59
You buggy builders are doing whats cheap rather than right.

I'm not arguing whether his bracket is right, but those guys are building rigs that go through a helluva lot more intense abuse than what we will ever throw at these motorcycles.  And they cost into 6 digits.  I trust those guys.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 23, 2018, 19:32:02
I'm not arguing whether his bracket is right, but those guys are building rigs that go through a helluva lot more intense abuse than what we will ever throw at these motorcycles.  And they cost into 6 digits.  I trust those guys.

I was doubting what I did - and I brought my frame into them, wasn't just a phone call too.

still doubting it when someone is so adamant about it.  :-[
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 23, 2018, 21:36:58
I use CAD, (cardboard aided design ;D )
I'll draw a picture as it's way faster than trying to explain and quicker than a computer 'drawing' .
What thickness plate did you use? (1/8", 1/4"?)
Here's a very basic pic of what you have and what you sould have. The right side (IIRC) is about 4 times stronger but requires more welding plus is a little more than half the weight of a single 1/8" plate but lighter and stronger than 1/4" plate. Frame tubes share the stress on each side instead of all the stress on the centerline one side. (the extra lines are to represent the  down tube, left it out on right side drawing)  It's a quick sketch so I didn't label all the 'movement' arrows


I'm not arguing whether his bracket is right, but those guys are building rigs that go through a helluva lot more intense abuse than what we will ever throw at these motorcycles.  And they cost into 6 digits.  I trust those guys.
I would like to see some pictures of what they actually build, 1/4" wall thickness pipe would be lot stronger than the 0.080" frame tube Honda use. Lot of people will tell you one thing but actually do something completely different.  If they don't have a structural engineer or at least copy design that has been through 'the math' they could be just jumping on a band-waggon with no real idea what they are doing.
The welds themselves don't look too hot for a 'professional' welder.
 I've seen better from people with zero welding experience after a 3 hr course (yea, I was certified MIG at one time, many  many years ago)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 23, 2018, 23:35:31
I have been getting jerked around by the guy who promised me he could powdercoat my stuff. it's VERY hard to find powdercoating in CA, let alone Northern California. No one does it (regulations?)

so I painted my swing arm and engine mounts to see if I like it.
satin black VHT frame/chassis paint. turns out durable and nice - just not sure if I like the satin or if I want to go gloss.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/426885641620553738/20180323_144748.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on Mar 24, 2018, 00:10:03
+++  PJ is correct there.  Have a look at Tony Foale's book for a little more insight into frame brackets and gussets. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 24, 2018, 02:29:01
The welds themselves don't look too hot for a 'professional' welder.
 I've seen better from people with zero welding experience after a 3 hr course (yea, I was certified MIG at one time, many  many years ago)

that's because I welded them, after about 100 hours of watching how-to videos and about 5 hours of practice on scrap metal.

again, I was told it was not perfect or "ideal" but will indeed work and at least the match the bublegum looking welds honda did on the rest of the frame
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 24, 2018, 11:17:02
In that case, welds are pretty good as it takes practice to make them pretty as well as strong.
Probably turn up amps slightly and turn down wire feed so you can burn in 'pretty welds' (you can work slower, I still remember the first time I used MIG, set up for 3/16" plate, I tried using on 1/16" sheet  ;D )
I thought you were paying buggy makers to weld it. :-[
Ca. is a bit OTT with some hobby stuff, seems they only want 'professionals' with crazy amounts of extractors, scrubbers, etc to do 'anything' ($30,000 paint booth, etc)
I guess the DIY powder coating stuff from Harbor Freight isn't even available there?
There shouldn't be any volatile compounds with powder coat, unless you overheat parts as it's basically a thermosetting plastic 'covering' and the powder should be pretty inert? (although I'm sure someone can 'educate' me on the finer points?)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: The Jimbonaut on Mar 24, 2018, 12:37:25
If you can find SprayMax 2K aerosol paint in your part of the world then it's a great option too.  Very durable indeed.  Pretty sure it comes in gloss, satin and matte - the can has a button on the bottom which when pushed activates a hardener inside.  You then have about 12 hours before the paint goes off in the can, so line up everything you need to paint as it doesn't last inside the can unlike a normal aerosol.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 24, 2018, 12:50:58
In that case, welds are pretty good as it takes practice to make them pretty as well as strong.
Probably turn up amps slightly and turn down wire feed so you can burn in 'pretty welds' (you can work slower, I still remember the first time I used MIG, set up for 3/16" plate, I tried using on 1/16" sheet  ;D )
I thought you were paying buggy makers to weld it. :-[
Ca. is a bit OTT with some hobby stuff, seems they only want 'professionals' with crazy amounts of extractors, scrubbers, etc to do 'anything' ($30,000 paint booth, etc)
I guess the DIY powder coating stuff from Harbor Freight isn't even available there?
There shouldn't be any volatile compounds with powder coat, unless you overheat parts as it's basically a thermosetting plastic 'covering' and the powder should be pretty inert? (although I'm sure someone can 'educate' me on the finer points?)

I was so worried about burning through the thinner frame that I didn't want to move too slow. it's a fine line. I certainly could have turned down the wire speed - and more practice is needed to get to know the machine and settings (it's a 230v 50a Lincoln and using 100%co2 and .030" wire)

Unfortunately I don't have the space or heat to do my own powdercoating

But... i can buy spraymax 2k paints on Amazon and I plan to use that for the tank and seat cowl.


I second guessed myself AGAIN and went over the semi gloss with gloss... and it turned out OK but not perfect. That's one area I know I can do better in and so I'll have to redo it next week when the weather is warmer (snowing here in NorCal again)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: jeff4uk on Mar 24, 2018, 17:52:27
Nice job there mate, Iím doing a 360 at the moment but havenít put it on here yet as time is short ,great job on the hoop B.T. W
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 24, 2018, 18:36:40
Semi-gloss is different, I used it on the T305 as it looked better than full gloss (plus it's easier  to 'touch up' when needed  ;D )
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 25, 2018, 00:18:53
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/427302860598935563/20180324_200834.jpg)

finally got the gold chain in. hard to tell under all the grease and wrapping but yea it's gold this time.
now I think I should have ordered a gear directly from RebelGears.com so I could get one in black.

so I may do that with a 33t 520 gear
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 25, 2018, 18:33:03
OK take two here

I don't like admitting mistakes but it's important to take other's advice. I asked for it earlier but got no input until after I posted what I did, which is frustrating but hey... it's just metal. I have an angle grinder and cutoff wheels.

After looking at some other ideas and input from P.j. I've mocked up the following in fusion:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/427570006163980298/FRAME.PNG)

any input this time? I plan to do this on Wednesday!

I have These Shock Mounts (https://www.dimecitycycles.com/vintage-cafe-racer-caferacer-bobber-brat-chopper-custom-motorcycle-chassis-shock-parts-dcc-originals-diy-shock-mounts-dcc-smount.html) from DCC and I really want to use them. I don't have to... but the design above allows them to be used and it's what I planned to use all along
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Popeye SXM on Mar 25, 2018, 18:56:52
I like it. This way the stresses are spread over much more of the tubing
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sav0r on Mar 25, 2018, 19:24:16
I used a very similar arrangement on my sub frame build. Though I put the hard point directly through the cross section of tube and gusseted the junction exactly like your model. I had the advantage of using a fairly large OD tube which made that possible though my build is in aluminum. Several thousand miles and 4 years later and it hasn't failed yet...
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on Mar 25, 2018, 19:32:13
That looks right now.  Brace/gusset metal can be remarkably thin and stl  be stiff & strong enough.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 25, 2018, 20:15:42
oh yea

and I got the pistons in and measured the deck with the cylinders installed - no gaskets. there is a .053" gap. I have a copper gasket from Lanni for the head, which is .042" which means I need .011" to get to "zero" deck - but Lanni only makes them as thin as .016

an "N.E." brand base gasket measures .020 but I can "squeeze it" with the caliper to get it to .0195
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 25, 2018, 22:55:06
Just realised your thread name is prophetic, you sure you don't want to call it 'lucky f****r' or something instead?  ;D
You have one of the 'top' tolerance motors. ( or bottom tolerance?)
When I did my first 378 I skimmed 0.020" from block and head and still had clearance. Couple of 378 builds have had zero clearance even with a stock base gasket and been negative with skimmed block. Honda obviously was lying when they said what tolerances were being used (although, pretty sure they never gave a main bearing to crankcase or block deck measurement?)
It's added expense to have block skimmed but much easier to remove material than to add it back. Oh, just read post again, you need about 0.035"~0.040" between piston top and head, the 0.053" is how far piston sticks out at present?
 As for shock mounts, you could probably run a 5mm drill all the way through using current threaded hole as guide then flip them over and drill 1/2"~3/4" to lighten them. Just be careful not to go too deep, about 1/2"~3/8" minimum to shoulder. Drill press will do it, I would use a pretty low speed and slow feed though (~300 rpm and 'feel' the cut)
Just had another thought to help with alignment. Counter bore for a short piece of conduit or similar, make mounts 'a solid bar' line everything up, weld in place, cut conduit and pull it out
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 25, 2018, 23:11:19
Just realised your thread name is prophetic, you sure you don't want to call it 'lucky f****r' or something instead?  ;D
You have one of the 'top' tolerance motors. ( or bottom tolerance?)
When I did my first 378 I skimmed 0.020" from block and head and still had clearance. Couple of 378 builds have had zero clearance even with a stock base gasket and been negative with skimmed block. Honda obviously was lying when they said what tolerances were being used (although, pretty sure they never gave a main bearing to crankcase or block deck measurement?)
It's added expense to have block skimmed but much easier to remove material than to add it back. Oh, just read post again, you need about 0.035"~0.040" between piston top and head, the 0.053" is how far piston sticks out at present?

yes, .053" is how far the piston sticks out with no gaskets at all. so if I add the .042" headgasket, then they would stick about .011 past that...
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 25, 2018, 23:20:22
 In that case you need ~0.047" base gasket to get 0.036" piston to head clearance, slightly thicker won't do any harm (there is at least one 378 where compression seems 'too high' when kickstarting)
You have 'low' motor
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 25, 2018, 23:30:40
ok gotcha, so it looks like Lanni makes a .050 gasket thickness, should do it. by 'low' you mean the case is milled lower than average, so everything sits down further - causing the need for thicker gaskets?

the machine shop that did the boring of the cylinders did express some concern with the clearance numbers I gave him, saying that the higher compression may play some havoc with such tight clearances - I am 100% OK using higher octane gas as where I work I can get any flavor sunoco for cheap, and I do have the ol' electric leg for starting purposes

oh, and "Yatagarasu" is a mark of rebirth and rejuvenation (sorta what I am doing do this bike) and also a god of guidance, which I gladly accept from the many experienced members here!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: 540Nova on Mar 26, 2018, 00:52:01
In that case, welds are pretty good as it takes practice to make them pretty as well as strong.
Probably turn up amps slightly and turn down wire feed so you can burn in 'pretty welds' (you can work slower, I still remember the first time I used MIG, set up for 3/16" plate, I tried using on 1/16" sheet  ;D )
I thought you were paying buggy makers to weld it. :-[
Ca. is a bit OTT with some hobby stuff, seems they only want 'professionals' with crazy amounts of extractors, scrubbers, etc to do 'anything' ($30,000 paint booth, etc)
I guess the DIY powder coating stuff from Harbor Freight isn't even available there?
There shouldn't be any volatile compounds with powder coat, unless you overheat parts as it's basically a thermosetting plastic 'covering' and the powder should be pretty inert? (although I'm sure someone can 'educate' me on the finer points?)
On a MIG, increasing wire feed increases amps. Perhaps you meant volts.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 26, 2018, 10:32:23
The piston clearance is fine, it isn't s 50 yr old V-8.
The '0.001" per inch of bore' is so outdated it isn't even funny anymore
 If you were using Wiseco you would need  more clearance as they use quite a soft, high expansion alloy.
 What surface finish did they put on it? I usually finish wit 400 grit hone and rarely bother with Flex Hone as 'extra' step.
Had one on dyno @12,000 rpm about 1hr after building motor, only got 2 'heat cycles before being beat on
Even in 70's Suzuki (and most others) were using higher quality high silicon alloy 'low expansion' pistons. I hesitate to say it, but, if you want some idea how strong they are, stand one on a flat surface and hit it with the biggest hammer you can find -14lb sledge hammer will work (basically what happens when you get pre-ignition or detonation) Will probably dent top but overall dimensions will be relatively unchanged. You won't need anything better than 93 octane, I think if you check with other 378 owners, 87~89 still works fine
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on Mar 26, 2018, 10:37:03
I use regular pump gas in mine.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 26, 2018, 10:47:56
Me too, sometimes put some 91 or 93 in but only if I know I'm going to be 'more stupid' than usual  chasing 900's (it gets 87 on the way home  ;D )
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 26, 2018, 14:23:26
do you think with the oil transfer piece opened up a little, the center cam 'bearing' drilled for oil that I could reach 10-11k rpm intermittently without too much issue?

I know the points is a limiting factor... but I have a hard time going with pamco electrics on this bike I've heard they just arent reliable
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 26, 2018, 20:13:45
Points are designed to 'bounce' around 11~11,500 rpm, you can use an oil-stone to change points cam profile slightly so it will rev higher but I haven't bothered since around 1975 ish. The other thing people did was 'double spring' thhem using extra spring from old points set.
If it was a race motor it could be worthwhile swapping ignition system  but points ain't too much of a chore unless your riding every day when 1,500 miles comes around quite quick
The oil transfer piece mod is the best mod I've come up with for CB/CJ 250/360. Extra oil hole into journal is also a good idea if cam isn't 'gun drilled'. I consider myself personally responsible for the 'price hike' on 360's, If I hadn't figured out a way to make them more reliable they would still be cheap 'unreliable junk' prone to seizing cam bearings  ;D The cam bearing is really the only issue with t.he motor, generator output is low and reg/rect is 70's technology but both are easily fixed
I have never had a crank or transmission fail (even with the heavy Suzuki GS1000 pistons, 391cc and 10,000+rpm)
That bike even got me on TV as I was having so much fun (still got another 14.48  to go for my '15 minutes of fame'  ;D )
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 26, 2018, 23:07:20
I've only ever seen one CB360 in person - and where I am there are a TON of vintage bikes (mostly BMW R series and triumphs, harleys) there is a vintage bike meet every month at the local taco joint... even last summer people loved my CB360 so many 'old' guys reminiscing about their trips up the coast back in the 70s with their own CB360. Few people recognize it unless they've owned one and when I'm done with it this spring I'll love to talk about all the little details that went into it. Maybe have to make a [ THNX PJ ] custom cali licence plate!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 26, 2018, 23:48:23
Except for polishing one vacuum screw, carbs are done.
 Because the screws to mounting plate ha been loose I had to flatten the plate back with some 220 on surface plate. Did tops an carb bodies, they were actually pretty good compared to a lot I've done in the past. I polished mounting plate, it's kinda a 'trademark'  ;D
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 27, 2018, 12:36:17
looks awesome PJ! paypal incoming!

now I can't WAIT to get this thing back on the road

I ordered an .050 base gasket today
checking pisting ring gaps today

gotta finish drilling the clutch basket (holes drilled, just need to "smooth" them

also, tomorrow is fabrication day (welding wednesdays) so redoing the rear end. and then looking at possibly hiding the battery and electronics under the tank. I didn't do this before because no room with the coils, but since coils are gone I can make it work I think.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 27, 2018, 13:53:52
Don't put battery under tank, it gets too hot and will 'kill' it.
Mount under front of swing arm behind engine, it's pretty well hidden plus you have various bit's there from centre stand to hang brackets off. You can also direct heat away from it to a certain extent and if it does catch fire you won't have a bomb
0.050" gasket will put you right where you need at 0.039" 'bump' This should be a quick motor even with stock cam (around 120 on a good day)
Almost forgot, I put 110 and 120 jets in a baggie, you have 115 fitted at present, may be a little rich, you'll need some plug chops to find out. Fuel screw is set at 1.5 turns out, will probably need  adjusting? Anywhere between 3/4 and 3 turns is 'normal', less than 1/2 turn needs smaller pilot (I modified the pilots to Kei-Hin spec, didn't touch the new ones so you have options if you like playing carburettors  ;D )
Be very very careful launching over 7k, it's so short and light things get very 'interesting'  ;) (at least to 50~60mph )
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 27, 2018, 13:59:54
Don't put battery under tank, it gets too hot and will 'kill' it.
Mount under front of swing arm behind engine, it's pretty well hidden plus you have various bit's there from centre stand to hang brackets off. You can also direct heat away from it to a certain extent and if it does catch fire you won't have a bomb

well I planned to "shield" it and put heat reflective tape - the rear of the exhaust will be much closer to that area

but I already caught fire on this thing once... so I guess I'll just go back to my original idea and mount it under the seat
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 27, 2018, 14:09:49
I edited previous post.
Exhaust is way to short if it's exiting around swing arm pivot point, your not going to run open pipes (could be interesting with 125~130 secondary mains on a dyno to see just what it can do) I would guess around 41~42bhp at te wheel (compared to 36 at the crank that Honda claimed)
CB350's dyno around 26~28bhp, 360's 24~30 at the wheel (obviously more production variations on 360)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 27, 2018, 14:35:56
I edited previous post.
Exhaust is way to short if it's exiting around swing arm pivot point, your not going to run open pipes (could be interesting with 125~130 secondary mains on a dyno to see just what it can do) I would guess around 41~42bhp at te wheel (compared to 36 at the crank that Honda claimed)
CB350's dyno around 26~28bhp, 360's 24~30 at the wheel (obviously more production variations on 360)

oh no, I know these bikes like long exhaust - I plan to have the exhaust come under the frame then right at the back of the frame kick out and up to two reverse cones - I posted a picture of my idea earlier in this thread



EDIT: got piston rings end gapped - now just waiting on the gasket I ordered to arrive and my cylinder head to be done so I can throw this all back together!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 29, 2018, 00:24:25
OK

so I owned up to my mistakes thanks to members here for steering me true!

EDIT: I REALLY hope you guys approve because i DON'T wanna do this again.
note: I plan to weld a 12mm bar all the way through and then cut in the middle between the frame - so that it's straight and I will drill a hole in the ends for a 6mm round head bolt and washer to mount the shocks


chopped off the stupid shock mounts I was so proud of...
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/428747138294349824/20180328_120626_1.gif)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/428740577144602636/20180328_123035.jpg)


welded "proper" ones this time
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/428747137602551808/20180328_142807_1.gif)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/428740576846938112/IMG_20180328_183540_441.jpg)


mocked up how the seat and cowl will look:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/428740577144602634/IMG_20180328_183540_440.jpg)

I did a bunch of other stuff but I am dead tired and will post more tomorrow
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on Mar 29, 2018, 01:30:08
Much better.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: WhyNot on Mar 29, 2018, 08:59:43
Absolutely better......but I'm no welder, wish I could though.

Maybe someday I'll take a class and buy a cheap welder.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 29, 2018, 14:47:43
Absolutely better......but I'm no welder, wish I could though.

Maybe someday I'll take a class and buy a cheap welder.
Just buy a cheap welder and make a lot of mistakes  ;D (just make sure your not doing anything structural until you figure it out)
A lot of cheap 'buzz box' welders turn up at garage sales and Craigslist and a LOT of good work has been done without using TIG, MIG or expensive welders. It is easier with a multi adjustable box plus the learning curve isn't as steep. Welding takes practice more than anything else. Long long time ago (probably around 1975~76?) my brother bought a cheap 100A 'buzz box'
After a few months (and several pounds of electrodes) I was able to weld any steel you will find on a motorcycle I most proud of repair to rear mudguard mount on Honda S90 he had, it was only about 0.018"~0.020" thick.(someone with an S90 probably knows gauge  ;D ) Looked like TIG (which I hadn't even heard of at the time) Being a kid helped as well, you don't know you 'can't do that' so you just do it  8)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: WhyNot on Mar 29, 2018, 15:14:45
Just buy a cheap welder and make a lot of mistakes  ;D (just make sure your not doing anything structural until you figure it out)
A lot of cheap 'buzz box' welders turn up at garage sales and Craigslist and a LOT of good work has been done without using TIG, MIG or expensive welders. It is easier with a multi adjustable box plus the learning curve isn't as steep. Welding takes practice more than anything else. Long long time ago (probably around 1975~76?) my brother bought a cheap 100A 'buzz box'
After a few months (and several pounds of electrodes) I was able to weld any steel you will find on a motorcycle I most proud of repair to rear mudguard mount on Honda S90 he had, it was only about 0.018"~0.020" thick.(someone with an S90 probably knows gauge  ;D ) Looked like TIG (which I hadn't even heard of at the time) Being a kid helped as well, you don't know you 'can't do that' so you just do it  8)

Funny story........been watching the local and not so local cl, haven't found anything.

Working every day of the week don't get time for yard sales.

Got any recommendations for a cheapie at HF. That's my only go to source at the time?

Thanks for the help, and sorry for the momentary threadjack mini.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 29, 2018, 15:24:52
Funny story........been watching the local and not so local cl, haven't found anything.

Working every day of the week don't get time for yard sales.

Got any recommendations for a cheapie at HF. That's my only go to source at the time?

Thanks for the help, and sorry for the momentary threadjack mini.

the vulcan welders from HF have been getting pretty great reviews from professional welders on youtube - I bought their migmax 215 and it's on backorder... they are always out of stock, seams to be a very high demand for them as they are VERY good for the price.

went to the local napa and bought a firepower 165 - it's a 230v 50amp welder - I could have spend half that getting a cheaper one and spent the rest on classes and be much better at it.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: advCo on Mar 29, 2018, 15:28:15
Funny story........been watching the local and not so local cl, haven't found anything.

Working every day of the week don't get time for yard sales.

Got any recommendations for a cheapie at HF. That's my only go to source at the time?

Thanks for the help, and sorry for the momentary threadjack mini.

FWIW I use the Harbor Freight (Chicago Electric?) MIG 170, which runs on 220v. I use gas with it and have had great results.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: WhyNot on Mar 29, 2018, 15:34:20
Only place I have 220 is at the dryer.

So, I'd have to get a 110.

Thanks
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 29, 2018, 16:46:17
Only place I have 220 is at the dryer.

So, I'd have to get a 110.

Thanks

that means you already have a 220 breaker... just run a new wire to a new outlet, that's what I did - only 230 I had was at the electric range
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: jpmobius on Mar 29, 2018, 16:58:08
The new shock mounts are greatly improved.  My hat's off to anyone willing to do things over until they are happy with their work, so well done!  Your hoop looks fine, however you should check it for tire clearance (didn't see if you checked this already - please disregard if I missed it).  This is a very common error - sometimes even by people who should know better.  Easiest way is to mock up the rear wheel with the suspension fully compressed.   I invariably use a single shock without the spring as I like to have the rear suspension able to be placed in any position for many things (checking fender clearance , brake linkage, exhaust, bodywork, etc.) and recommend you do the same, but I think most people don't bother removing the spring and collapse the suspension with a ratchet strap which works fine if you are only checking for frame clearance.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 29, 2018, 17:15:17
I'm hoping 'minininja' already checked that, it's been an issue since at least 2009 and sme bikes have been completely re-built to correct the problem. Often just fitting  longer socks works. I made new shock bases. for a CB650 that had 2" clearance with 4" suspension travel
It was kinda 'interesting' to ride when the wheel hit frame
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 29, 2018, 18:35:26
I'm hoping 'minininja' already checked that, it's been an issue since at least 2009 and sme bikes have been completely re-built to correct the problem. Often just fitting  longer socks works. I made new shock bases. for a CB650 that had 2" clearance with 4" suspension travel
It was kinda 'interesting' to ride when the wheel hit frame

lol I did - it will contact the tire if I don't put shocks on there. but the shocks I have will bottom out with about 1/2" clearance

too close, I know, but "vintage riding" style (just cruising) I have never bottomed out a shock

I really should have used an "upswept" loop, and with the seat and cowl i'm using now I could have, but at the time I was going to use another seat... and this hoop was needed
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Mar 30, 2018, 11:48:47
Half inch clearance at full bump is plenty, even 1/4" would work as wheel won't generally stay that far 'up' for more than a few milliseconds
Check after a few hundred miles, no 'polishing and your golden (expect to see some marks from dirt and water though) Using correct rim for tyre also helps, putting a 110 on stock rim gives a taller tyre compared to being on a 2.15" rim. 3/8" is generally considered minimum to allow for tyre 'growth' at high speed.
The effect is most dramatic on Top Fuel drag rails, tyres grow about 6~8 " (or more?) and get 'narrower' as speed increases
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Mar 30, 2018, 12:09:07
Got to work on tank mount
cut off the frame mount, trimmed down the tank mount
using the hole already there, welded a piece to the frame, cut a hole. Will use a rubber bushing in between or maybe even a grommet in the tank part. I want to use a knurled thumb screw - because this part will be slightly visible with the seat I am using.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/428757850601291776/20180328_170511.jpg)
sorry for shitty photo
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 05, 2018, 15:03:47
Not a lot done recently. Getting down to the wire here for having it ready by end of April bike show. have a feeling I am not gonna make it  :(

Last night between dinner and getting kids in the bath I managed to finish the clutch basket
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/431284803065872384/20180404_190523.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 06, 2018, 23:33:21
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/431960102002753536/20180406_121642_1.gif)


Choke is like... loose and shit. Does this cause problems? Haha
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Apr 07, 2018, 06:04:17
I wouldn't think so. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 07, 2018, 17:31:03
Choke plates were worn from the screws being loose for a long time, The are tight and staked but without fitting new plates there isn't anything that can be done. It isn't a problem though as the stainless steel connector also acts as a spring to prevent the shaft moving side to side (the flap isn't moving on the shaft, it's the entire assembly )
I didn't remove the connector nut but looking at gif, there may be a washer missing between it and carb body. It still won't be a problem though
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 07, 2018, 17:55:20
Choke plates were worn from the screws being loose for a long time, The are tight and staked but without fitting new plates there isn't anything that can be done. It isn't a problem though as the stainless steel connector also acts as a spring to prevent the shaft moving side to side (the flap isn't moving on the shaft, it's the entire assembly )
I didn't remove the connector nut but looking at gif, there may be a washer missing between it and carb body. It still won't be a problem though

yea it looks like they were jumping around in there for quite a while! amazed I didn't even notice

thanks for fixing them! I am super stoked!

as for the washer, I tried snugging it up with a washer, but the movement of the thing is way more than a washer can take up, unless i back off the screws and move it so it's centered when closed - which I don't really want to do now that they are staked in
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 07, 2018, 17:58:16
Also,

Oil transfer unmodified:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/432281251160916008/20180407_111336.jpg)

And Modified:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/432281410510782464/20180407_130423.jpg)

Its opened up right to where the spring sits. I only found 1 damn picture of this modification on Google and it came with a footnote from pj... basically saying not to do it that way.
So this is the way I did it instead.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 07, 2018, 18:04:32
LOL, I think the only picture is one I posted few years ago. (don't remember when I actually took it even) As I was re-assembling I realised I had gone too far in one direction so warned everyone else not to make the same mistake. I do them exactly like yours now but haven't ever taken another picture, just the 'warning'  ;D
I'm going to link that to a friend in Britain who's seriously thinking of swapping his Tag-Heur watch for a rebuilt CB360
Oh, washer doesn't take up all the play, the spring in the connector holds things in place
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 08, 2018, 00:17:34
good to know. now people will see these images maybe. I'll have to do a full write-up on my website

I can't seam to get the oil filter lock nut lock washer to bend - I'll have to run to the other shop to grab a heavy duty pick and try it that way. (engine is at Home in the back garden, while nearly everything else is at the shop with the heavy metal working equipment. sometimes I am carting tools between the shop and home.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 08, 2018, 17:45:06
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/432640495936733207/IMG_20180408_120547_635.jpg)

today:

head bolt oil holes in rear of top case - drilled out to 3/32 (at first I thought I was going to remove the headstuds to make this easier to drill... then I just bought a long ass drill bit)
Oil Filter locknut lock plate tabs bent into locking position - used needle nose pliers to do the job.
clutch fitted and installed - clutch rod and mechanism on sprocket cover installed.
side covers fitted (No gaskets) to keep everything covered and instact while I do the rest of the assembly.
Somewhere along the line I lost my alternator cover. It was badly damaged from when I accidentally dropped the bike (stationary) and the shift lever decided to punch it. So I'll have to find a new one of those, no big deal.

I love that the copper gasket is peaking out there, nice contrast with the black and polished aluminium and a little hint that this motor isn't stock

One thing that was concerning me - the starter. Althought it turns freely when tested on the bench, it seams to wobble, and the drive doesn't look like it's straight. I may have to get a new one of those from eBay too, maybe a Rick's Hot Starter?



EDIT: I found these two - shims? they are very thin. I am not sure what they are for, starter maybe?
I pulled the starter apart and the head planetary gear drive part just turns TERRIBLE, the bearing spins but with resistance. So I am getting a new bearing and that should fix it.
just not sure what these shims are for :(

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/329864485135187969/432686289016586241/20180408_163705.jpg?width=585&height=585)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: advCo on Apr 08, 2018, 23:33:10
Looking good. I have a good used starter I took off my 360 Iíll let go cheap, PM me if youíre interested.


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 09, 2018, 12:10:48
If the hole is about 10mm and are about 0.25mm thick they are probably out of starter.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 09, 2018, 13:21:35
If the hole is about 10mm and are about 0.25mm thick they are probably out of starter.

Because of the starter not freely rotating like I thought it should, I pulled it apart - and while I thought I put it together right, I didn't install the shims. Actually went together much easier with the shims, and I also discovered that I do indeed need a new bearing - which wasn't in the rebuild kit.
it's a 6203z bearing, which is common and I can get one from an auto supply store I think
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 10, 2018, 14:40:28
I don't think I've ever even heard of the 'nose' bearing failing on 360 unless starter has been underwater (even then it was off bike and in a bucket)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 10, 2018, 20:37:26
I don't think I've ever even heard of the 'nose' bearing failing on 360 unless starter has been underwater (even then it was off bike and in a bucket)

would explain why it's not part numbered in any diagrams

ball bearings themselvs are supposed to be "lifetime" anyway, nothing really fails on a ball bearing unless an outside force is applied (corrosion would be the most common)

But I got a bearing (same as factory, NTN 6003z) - When i took it apart it looks as though the shield had been crushed during the install... i didn't touch the bearing as the kit did not come with a replacement, so i can only assume it was taken apart and fucked up before I got it, which follows the theme of the rest of this bike.

I was hoping to not have to get a new starter, as I just spent $94 on K&N filters. HAHA
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 10, 2018, 20:39:50
Wow, whoever had that bike before you was a special kind of stupid.  ;D
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on Apr 11, 2018, 01:26:04
Wow, whoever had that bike before you was a special kind of stupid.  ;D

That's odd.  In my experience, most are that way....
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 11, 2018, 02:54:08
Indeed. He was stupid for letting his electrician friend "help" him turn it into a #caferacer he was the second owner bought it in '84.

Sent from my SM-G955U using DO THE TON mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89466)

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 11, 2018, 19:16:11
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/433751633709498368/20180411_151244.jpg)

Got a steering damper in from Ebay $9 for a suzi gsxr 07 damper... nice.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 11, 2018, 23:33:15
Make sure it's working properly, they have a nasty habit of either leaking or the internal piston 'comes loose'
Neevo (Idiot Down under CB400f) re-built his, think he gives seal size.
I've got a couple of them, needed air bled out (and topped up with suspension fluid) but otherwise OK.
Use a 5ml syringe as bleed/fill hole is only 3mm. 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 12, 2018, 00:18:34
Make sure it's working properly, they have a nasty habit of either leaking or the internal piston 'comes loose'
Neevo (Idiot Down under CB400f) re-built his, think he gives seal size.
I've got a couple of them, needed air bled out (and topped up with suspension fluid) but otherwise OK.
Use a 5ml syringe as bleed/fill hole is only 3mm.
It seems to be working great, no bubbly sounds from it and very smooth, also no leaks. However. I do plan to change the fluid, using a 5w fork oil from what I have read that is the proper stuff.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 12, 2018, 10:41:38
Fork oil can 'break down' too fast, you need rear shock fluid.
 Fork doesn't get as hot as rear damper (more surface area less movement except in MX or maybe racing) so viscosity doesn't change as much
It's the lower change in viscosity due to heat that makes the 'suspension fluid' way more expensive ($30~$40 liter instead of $10~$15 liter)
I forget details, haven't looked it up since 2012 or so. 
You can look up viscosity index and compare it to viscosity
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 12, 2018, 14:18:38
Fork oil can 'break down' too fast, you need rear shock fluid.
 Fork doesn't get as hot as rear damper (more surface area less movement except in MX or maybe racing) so viscosity doesn't change as much
It's the lower change in viscosity due to heat that makes the 'suspension fluid' way more expensive ($30~$40 liter instead of $10~$15 liter)
I forget details, haven't looked it up since 2012 or so. 
You can look up viscosity index and compare it to viscosity

Thanks for the heads up. Will get some of the proper stuff for it. Since I am missing my April 18th deadline I have until May 16th for the next bike meet - i have a little time to make this right.

I bought some Redline 5w Suspension Fluid - also some 10w, just in case I don't know what I am doing (which is likely)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 13, 2018, 10:15:26
Redline is good stuff, I have a chart somewhere of 'top 100'
Almost all viscosities are in top 25, thinner 'thins' less. I think the 20w was at 25~30  on chart?
It needs to get pretty hot to have noticeable loss of viscosity  8)
 I have been using Silkolene Pro Suspension Fluid but it's pretty expensive now so will probably switch
 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 15, 2018, 16:25:35
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/329864485135187969/435158102179053584/VideoCapture_20180414-194441.jpg?width=1040&height=585)

some progress: all the bolts and hardware have been cleaned of grease and grime, no one wants to see that so I didn't take any pics.
I did manage to snap this from the video I am making about the bike build... tapping the grease fitting for the caliper arm

excuse the messy work bench - we have 4 projects going ('82 R650LS, this bike, '81 GS250, and an XL650)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 17, 2018, 23:47:50
OK got some crap done today I am pretty happy about the results so be nice :)


first thing was to fabricate a mount for the master cylinder under the tank. This was a must for me, mostly because I gave my stock master cylinder away to a user on here so they could finish their project, and also because I wanted nice clean bars, so no master up top for me!

step 1:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/435992813323419648/20180417_095742.jpg)

step 2:  (welded it) it bolts to the original coil mounting bolts - super excited about that, it means the thing can be easily removed and serviced
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/435992932773003274/20180417_101001.jpg)

and MOUNTED: (ps, not gonna use that hardware, already got proper mounting hardware for it
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/435992964016242688/20180417_101107.jpg)


the next thing I did was to make mounts for both the ignition coils as well as the steering damper
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/435992611220619274/20180417_164905.jpg)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/435992720343826433/20180417_164949.jpg)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/435992764036022272/20180417_144144.jpg)

and I also finished drilling the rotor. I like the way it looks - almost as if all the holes get smaller as they go outward, but they don't!
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/435992448477429770/20180417_180321.jpg)



lots more to do tomorrow - I want to tackle the shock mounting studs and maybe a few other things if I get motivated
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 18, 2018, 00:12:33
Rotor will wear back to better condition than it is now as long as there is slight 'overlap' between holes. If there isn't, you will get bigger ridges. It's dead easy to fix if needed though, just enlarge some of the holes slightly. Looks good in pic but 'full size' will be easier to see.  ;)
Do both coils mount onto the new bracket?
 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 18, 2018, 01:01:15
Rotor will wear back to better condition than it is now as long as there is slight 'overlap' between holes. If there isn't, you will get bigger ridges. It's dead easy to fix if needed though, just enlarge some of the holes slightly. Looks good in pic but 'full size' will be easier to see.  ;)
Do both coils mount onto the new bracket?

I checked all the overlaps - there is more than enough so no grooves... also it may look like it is grooved - but it's just a strange discoloration, you cannot feels this grooves at all - there is room to enlarge the single larger holes in the stacks, out to 3/8 (if you can see it, one of the holes IS a 3/8 hole - because I had to balance the rotor

there is an identical coil mount on the other side, they will each be on their own mount - I wanted them to hang a little down below the tank so you can see that they are non-stock coils and give another hint to the level pain and suffering I have gone through on this bike



I was hoping I could use this kit from TC Bros (http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/yamaha-xs650-builder-exhaust-kit-1-5-inch-diameter.html) for my exhaust? I am not sure about the flange sizes.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 18, 2018, 12:25:02


there is an identical coil mount on the other side, they will each be on their own mount - I wanted them to hang a little down below the tank so you can see that they are non-stock coils and give another hint to the level pain and suffering I have gone through on this bike



I was hoping I could use this kit from TC Bros (http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/yamaha-xs650-builder-exhaust-kit-1-5-inch-diameter.html) for my exhaust? I am not sure about the flange sizes.

Coils will also run cooler 'out in the breeze'  ;D
As for pain and suffering, just wait til it's running  ;)
 I get pipes and mandrel bends from
http://www.magnumforce.com/magnumstore/shop/item.aspx?itemid=61
Need 2  bends and a straight.
I used smaller diameter out of port then sleeved over it to make a 'stepped' exhaust
Use a thick washer (1/8") in port and a thick wall tube.to space out far enough for flange to clamp.
XS is about 2-3/4" stud spacing while CB is about 2.5"
I can#t find the pics of building, guess it's the ones Photobucket screwed up. I'll re-upload them when I find the flash drive where they are stored
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 18, 2018, 23:15:37
So PJs plan worked

It was very difficult with the equipment i have (don't have) but I manage to drill 1/2 holes lined up perfectly through the rear shock mount plates I welded up before... perfectly straight to the mm (woohoo!)

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/436346545064116234/20180418_130628.jpg)

I then welded the inside of them, and cut the excess out of the middle.

because the plates aren't straight to anything but the tube - I had to cut strange angled spacers - I used the Dime City Cycles Universal Cafe Shock Mount Slugs that I had previously drilled holes in to lighten then up as I planned to use them in the above manner but didn't - I then drilled a 13/64s hole about 1 1/4 deep and tapped it for a 6mm bolt, which with a washer will hold the shock on

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/436339375312207882/20180418_171713.jpg)

and.... after all that - I FINALLY got it "rolling" of course it's all back apart now while it gets some finishing touches and finish the tank and seat mount and alllll the other crap - oh yea like the ENGINE!

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/436339234647965697/20180418_124814.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: huck_finn on Apr 19, 2018, 10:22:53
Will the holes in the rear brake hub cause any issues with braking? Or do you think they will shed dust from the shoes? Either way, I really dig the way they look.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 19, 2018, 14:19:00
Will the holes in the rear brake hub cause any issues with braking? Or do you think they will shed dust from the shoes? Either way, I really dig the way they look.

they aren't on the friction surface so no issues with wear
however, those holes will allow dust and water and crap to get in there - which isn't good for anything

they are there mostly because I have been intent on drilling holes in every possible surface on the bike :)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 19, 2018, 17:36:01
Coils will also run cooler 'out in the breeze'  ;D
As for pain and suffering, just wait til it's running  ;)

Oh yea! that will be another thing all together - not looking forward to all the tuning that will be required

Quote
XS is about 2-3/4" stud spacing while CB is about 2.5"

i was more thinking about using the collar, not the flange I used the wrong term :(
wondering if that collar will work and I can use stock style CB flanges (probably from Speedy Seigl racing)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 21, 2018, 00:02:57
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/437084316984672276/20180420_144343.jpg)

micro push button installed on the right bar (this thing is super tiny and very well build! it threads into the 5/16-24 hole I tapped in the bar)
mini GP drum lever to actuate the remote master cylinder (need to find a super short cable for this but I may just have to modify the ones I have and shorten it up)
standard dual Motion Pro throttle (thinking about using CB400 cables as they are quite a bit shorter than the cb360 cables)
I ran the wires through a short length of gutted 550 paracord to clean them up and also gives that "vintage cloth covered wire" look
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Alex jb on Apr 21, 2018, 13:17:13
Just read all the way through, great build, weíll done to you sir!

Did you decide on the top triple tree to remove the handle bar mounts?
I did on my 175 and donít regret it, much cleaner look.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180421/1443fb976cc5cd14a1bc1bfcfee0688b.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 21, 2018, 15:27:09
Just read all the way through, great build, weíll done to you sir!

Did you decide on the top triple tree to remove the handle bar mounts?
I did on my 175 and donít regret it, much cleaner look.
[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180421/1443fb976cc5cd14a1bc1bfcfee0688b.jpg[img]

holy wow that looks great! did you fill it with something and the paint it?

thanks for checking out my build :)

I am likely going to leave them there, as with the clip ons i have I know the mirrors won't be legal - and if i get a fix it ticket in Cali i'll just throw the old clubman bars with mirros on there for inspection and go back to the clip ons after i get the ticket signed off


I rode all last year with no signals and a sideways plate with no tail like and never got pulled over - so we'll see. top triples are cheap, can get an extra if I need to
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Alex jb on Apr 21, 2018, 18:51:32
I did exactly that, got an eBay replacement that was more beat up than my top tree and modified that.

I used the 2 Pac metal stuff that over here in UK is called quicksteel or quickalloy to fill in after roughing off the excess.


Iím envious of your alloy polishing skills too!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 21, 2018, 21:29:09
they aren't on the friction surface so no issues with wear
however, those holes will allow dust and water and crap to get in there - which isn't good for anything

they are there mostly because I have been intent on drilling holes in every possible surface on the bike :)

The holes will let heat out and let brake run slightly cooler (plus, cool off faster)
Shock mounts look real good, ton of work to get back to 'almost' stock. It's something most people won't notice or even realise has been done but it does look 'race'  8)

Oh yea! that will be another thing all together - not looking forward to all the tuning that will be required

You never know, might get lucky (some people never adjusted anything on carbs and others only adjusted fuel screw)
 There are some very quick '360's' out there  ;)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 22, 2018, 13:21:12
The holes will let heat out and let brake run slightly cooler (plus, cool off faster)
Shock mounts look real good, ton of work to get back to 'almost' stock. It's something most people won't notice or even realise has been done but it does look 'race'  8)

You never know, might get lucky (some people never adjusted anything on carbs and others only adjusted fuel screw)
 There are some very quick '360's' out there  ;)

I do tend to use the rear brake a lot in town, as the front brake is really good (no need for upgrades on these bikes) and sometimes I like to slow down at a reasonable pace... so i just ease on the rear... so that should help.
as for the shock mounts - I have learned my lesson on this... they were probably just dandy to begin with and I should have left them alone... but I wanted to bring them up to the frame as tight as possible to get a little more travel out of the rear end, and the correct shock angle for the longer swing arm (so the lines match up with the frame tubes) I should have just left it alone but live and learn - now it's "custom!"

the bike was plenty quick before, it'll be a beast now! Also welding an 02 bung into the exhaust for some dyno tuning. I have no idea how to to do it but I'm sure someone does - that will be a ways down the road I think - gonna be some plug chops or color tuning in the mean-time
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on Apr 22, 2018, 13:51:06
Dyno run with correctly set up O2 sensor plus 5 band 'probe'  stck in the end will give so much information it makes fine tuning carbs real easy and is worth the cost. I would get at least a few hundred miles on it first (although I built first 378 and had it running 12,000rpm on 3rd fire up and less than 20 miles on it) It allowed me to sort out the major carb mods I had done (took 2 sets of carbs in with different modifications, I know what doesn't work  ;D ) I've been fine tuning ever since but have 'basic' set up pretty good. Exhaust length and diameter is critical when stock air box is removed and the reason different secondary main jets may be required. The change in fuel formulation a few years ago (E10 everywhere  ::) ) needed slightly different set up (float level and bigger secondary main jet ~up from 110 to 115) Running 'real' gas without ethanol needs smaller secondary main plus lower float level (19.5~20mm)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on Apr 23, 2018, 06:58:27
Also welding an 02 bung into the exhaust for some dyno tuning. I have no idea how to to do it but I'm sure someone does

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-230418045003-3673903.jpeg)

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-230418045003-3674599.jpeg)

12 O'clock position, as far from both the head and open air as possible,  (mine measures approx 28" from head and 22" from fresh air.) do your best to ensure there are no leaks in the system.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-230418045316.jpeg)

Wurth assembly paste is good. 

 https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Exhaust-System-Fitting-Assembly/dp/B06XWP61RM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1524478093&sr=8-2&keywords=wurth+exhaust+assembly+paste

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-280218180444-33561334.jpeg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 23, 2018, 13:26:07
cool thanks! my Uncle builds stock car engines - and said a trick they use to determine where to place a sensor is to use a crayon and draw a line along the header pipe - where the crayon stops burning is where you should place it - Now this guy is old school... probably doesn't even know how to log into a computer but any input on that? I guess it's just important for the exhaust gasses to fully mature before the sensor

will be using 1 3/8" OD pipe for the first 15-18 inches, and then 1 1/2" OD for the rest - got some u-bends from PJs link (thanks!) and then am gonna use the TC bros kit for the rest
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 26, 2018, 17:33:09
what amp fuse to use for ignition? I have 1  circuit for the coils that ONLY runs coils so is 7amp good?
the main circuit for lights and Neutral Safety and StopLight swiches will be a 10amp - everything is LED so no real load on those, just protecting the switches


EDIT:

I bought some connectors from Sparack (vintage connections) a 4-pin 2.8mm (for the Neutral Safety Indicator and Stop light Switch) and a 2-pin 2.8mm (for the Starter Button)

This is the wiring diagram I have so far

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/439924154637221908/20180428_155844.jpg)

and now digital with color codes:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/440193487338471424/wiring.png)

later when I add headlights and a horn i will have to add another 4pin connector for those wires - the last time I did wiring on this bike due to the fire I had tons of connectors and wires and I really want to simplify this thing but i realize with things like starters and lights it really adds a lot to the deal. race bike would just need 1 wire from a toggle to the Coils.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 27, 2018, 20:27:48
Thanks pj for the adapters! They look great. Got a fancy photo for the web if you wanna sling them I'll talk to my partner about buying some in bulk from ya to stick it to the other guy

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/439566189304217611/20180427_161720.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on Apr 29, 2018, 17:55:04
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/440254399768559616/harnesmlock.png)

just ordered an M-lock

bike isn't really unsecured ever except when I am in the store or something, and we don't have a problem with bike thefts... I realize it only takes about 45 seconds for people to lift a sub 300lb bike into a van but this mlock will give me more peace of mind over just a toggle switch
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on May 01, 2018, 00:46:39
Q: why the relay before the starter solenoid?  The sloenoid is a heavy duty relay.  You should not need a second one there.  Use it instead just for the coils.

O2 sensors: It seems counter intuitive, but when the bike is running we know we can feel the pressure of exhaust coming out but what we don't feel is the fresh air pulsing back in.  That's why short pipes show up as lean on the Lambda sensor and that's not accurate. 

On one two stroke we tested on the dyno with a sniffer only part way into the tail pipe - it read lean even when it was clearly too rich.  Mechanical baffles got in the way.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 01, 2018, 05:25:52
Q: why the relay before the starter solenoid?  The sloenoid is a heavy duty relay.  You should not need a second one there.  Use it instead just for the coils.

well, because it was suggested to me and I have the room for it. the wires for my starter button are tiny, like 22 awg or something.

Quote
O2 sensors: It seems counter intuitive, but when the bike is running we know we can feel the pressure of exhaust coming out but what we don't feel is the fresh air pulsing back in.  That's why short pipes show up as lean on the Lambda sensor and that's not accurate. 

On one two stroke we tested on the dyno with a sniffer only part way into the tail pipe - it read lean even when it was clearly too rich.  Mechanical baffles got in the way.

the exhaust will be pretty long - longer than scrambler exhaust - as it will go down around bottom of frame and up to the rear swingarm
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 01, 2018, 14:50:55
Starter solenoid only needs couple hundred milliamps to operate, your powering a coil to operate main contactor, plus, it isn't a 'constant on' component (should be max ten second 'burst')
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on May 01, 2018, 14:53:57
Most Honda solenoids will pull over three amps. It's not a trivial amount of current and I recommend 18 gauge wire or thicker.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 01, 2018, 16:00:42
Most Honda solenoids will pull over three amps. It's not a trivial amount of current and I recommend 18 gauge wire or thicker.

the old wiring I had used 16awg wire directly to the sol and never had any issues - this time I am using a metri-pack box that can house 4 fuses or 2 and a micro relay, super tiny 20amp relay and the button uses really small wires - the manufacture "requires" the use of a relay with this button.


BTW - i ordered from vintage connections - thanks for sending me spare little contacts in the connector sets.... that's a step above and much help!!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 01, 2018, 16:52:53
Most Honda solenoids will pull over three amps. It's not a trivial amount of current and I recommend 18 gauge wire or thicker.

On the primary windings?
It's one of the few parts I don't remember taking measurements on ;D
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on May 01, 2018, 16:56:18
Yeah. I just ran one on my power supply. 3.18A at 14.2V. It was from a CX500.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: trek97 on May 01, 2018, 19:29:05
O2 sensors: It seems counter intuitive, but when the bike is running we know we can feel the pressure of exhaust coming out but what we don't feel is the fresh air pulsing back in.  That's why short pipes show up as lean on the Lambda sensor and that's not accurate. 

+1
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 02, 2018, 08:00:49
Because of truck issue I've been looking up O2 sensors. (you forget a lot of stuff when your not 'using' it  ;) )
This is the best video I've seen explaining how they work and what they do
https://youtu.be/wZc-zCr2QnE (https://youtu.be/wZc-zCr2QnE)

BTW,. you only need to watch about first 30 mins, the rest is on actual vehicles so pretty worthless to 'us'
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 07, 2018, 21:41:34
ran into sort of a problem and have been held up a few days - I seam to have misplaced the shim (thrust washer b) needed for the camshaft end play (part number 90484-369-000)

I am not sure if it slipped in between the cracks in my work bench but it's LOST FOREVER

problem is... everywhere I see that - well the only way to get one is to reuse the one you have.

in other news I got my head back from the shop, oversized 1mm intake and a mildly ported (match port, D shaped exhaust and matched intake boots, small sculpting done to the intake and exhaust around the valve guides and smoothed area at the seats

getting excited to get this thing together

oh, and while I was searching for the thrust washer I keep coming across a "sealing washer" (like this one) (http://"https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Honda-Camshaft-Sealing-Washer-CB360A-CB360GA-CB360TA-CL360A-CL360K1A/371893607034?epid=1711835064&hash=item5696961a7a:g:thQAAOSwdGFYybuH&vxp=mtr") and I have no idea what it is where it goes
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on May 08, 2018, 11:55:25
problem is... everywhere I see that - well the only way to get one is to reuse the one you have.

If you have the specs, I'm pretty sure most washers would work.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 08, 2018, 12:01:53
'Most' washers are not precision ground.
Try McMaster -Carr for a thrust washer. Pretty sure it's a common inch size.
Only problem I see is you may have to buy a 10 pack although I'm sure other 360 owners would buy one if different size to what they already have as Honda only listed two sizes
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 08, 2018, 12:22:12
'Most' washers are not precision ground.
Try McMaster -Carr for a thrust washer. Pretty sure it's a common inch size.
Only problem I see is you may have to buy a 10 pack although I'm sure other 360 owners would buy one if different size to what they already have as Honda only listed two sizes

there are two sizes honda makes, 1mm and 1.1mm - I think the 1mm will still allow me to be within tolerance, but 1.1 would be much more in the middle.
I found the 1mm version on eBay - NOS for only 13$ shipped so I'll get that, and hunt around for a 1.1mm if I don't find it by the time this all needs to go together next Sunday I'll just use the 1mm

I also found an NOS cam on eBay that was improperly listed and used the buy it now function to get it for only $120 - pretty fucking stoked on that, seller had an NOS rocker box for $30... may still buy that too, just to have this stuff around in case I grenade anything or decide to do more oil mods up top
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 10, 2018, 21:30:32
Can someone weigh their cb360 rear brake actuator?

I made this one from aluminum and carbon fiber and it weights 1.1 ounces

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/443927719806238720/20180509_163904.jpg)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 10, 2018, 21:34:38
That's really lightweight
I'll try and find onetomorrow if no one else comes through sooner
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 11, 2018, 00:10:32
I had heard the GS850 pistons were lighter than stock, I had to check for myself.

Stock Honda 65mm ART
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/444320857976733706/20180510_184838.jpg)

Suzuki GS850 ART
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329864485135187969/444320857372885002/20180510_184825.jpg)

the piston pin itself probably makes the most difference since it's the heaviest part, and the Honda version is longer than the suzi one
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on May 11, 2018, 00:15:58
I imagine the rings weigh something too.  Looks to me like to GS doesn't have rings.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 11, 2018, 00:44:40
I imagine the rings weigh something too.  Looks to me like to GS doesn't have rings.

ohhhh -I'll have to weigh those too then, I doubt they weigh anything close to 37 grams but.. I'll see
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 11, 2018, 10:56:30
It's still lighter check my sig  ;)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: irk miller on May 11, 2018, 11:00:31
I wasn't questioning that it's lighter.  Just making an observation that things weren't weighed under the same conditions between both pistons.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on May 11, 2018, 11:05:28
I went with Arias on my build. 210g each. ;D

But then I broke them and swapped over to GS850s..   :(

Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 11, 2018, 11:10:24
Wish there was a 'joker' emoji  ;D
 I don't remember the numbers but I did post them 'somewjere' Think I worked out to inertia compared to stock so decided a 12,000rpm 'red-line' would be OK particularly as points won't let it rev reliably top much more than 11,500  8)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 11, 2018, 13:58:20
I wasn't questioning that it's lighter.  Just making an observation that things weren't weighed under the same conditions between both pistons.
Yea I'm disappointed in myself I thought I was being all scientist with the digital scale. My gf was pissed I was using the kitchen scale for dirty pistons
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: onefromexile on May 11, 2018, 15:23:29
Yea I'm disappointed in myself I thought I was being all scientist with the digital scale. My gf was pissed I was using the kitchen scale for dirty pistons
Thatís not bad I used the Cmm at work to measure and inspect my head job
Port matched within a thou
Overkill
Oh and yeah my gs pistons were about less 1/4 gram off each other but I was able to remove excess casting marks on under side and got em to read exact
Worth it ??
Who knows


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89466)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 11, 2018, 15:23:40
Yea I'm disappointed in myself I thought I was being all scientist with the digital scale. My gf was pissed I was using the kitchen scale for dirty pistons

LOL, got caught. I wait until wife is in work and 'air out' house when I do stuff like that  ;)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 11, 2018, 17:32:03
Thatís not bad I used the Cmm at work to measure and inspect my head job
Port matched within a thou
Overkill
Oh and yeah my gs pistons were about less 1/4 gram off each other but I was able to remove excess casting marks on under side and got em to read exact
Worth it ??
Who knows


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89466)
I may use this scale to check that out, they are different in diameter by a couple thousandths so when I gave instructions to machine shop for boring they bored a right and left differently
 One is probably lighter than the other
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: NvgtrWiggles on May 11, 2018, 18:59:33
ran into sort of a problem and have been held up a few days - I seam to have misplaced the shim (thrust washer b) needed for the camshaft end play (part number 90484-369-000)

I am not sure if it slipped in between the cracks in my work bench but it's LOST FOREVER

problem is... everywhere I see that - well the only way to get one is to reuse the one you have.

in other news I got my head back from the shop, oversized 1mm intake and a mildly ported (match port, D shaped exhaust and matched intake boots, small sculpting done to the intake and exhaust around the valve guides and smoothed area at the seats

getting excited to get this thing together

oh, and while I was searching for the thrust washer I keep coming across a "sealing washer" (like this one) (http://"https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Honda-Camshaft-Sealing-Washer-CB360A-CB360GA-CB360TA-CL360A-CL360K1A/371893607034?epid=1711835064&hash=item5696961a7a:g:thQAAOSwdGFYybuH&vxp=mtr") and I have no idea what it is where it goes

I have a pile of 360 engines if you need a washer. Yours for cost of shipping.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 11, 2018, 19:51:12
Waste of time measuring top edge of piston to bore. It runs hot and expands to fill the gap.
 About 10mm~15mm from base is where you measure. (depends on type and manufacturer.
I always look for the largest diameter I can find, 90 degrees to pin.
You need to use micrometer, I use inch as I don't have metric with thousandths of mm(tenthousandths of inch vernier micrometers are more commonso much cheaper than metric versions)
Most pistons are made 'surfboard' shaped on lower edge, reduces friction and promotes oil film, but, they can build up an oil wedge at very high rpm and may give a 'smokey' motor as oil rings can't cope. It's part of the reason I like OEM pistons, they were designed to work very well to a specific rpm, plus 3~4 K before oil control is a problem
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 11, 2018, 20:40:32
I have a pile of 360 engines if you need a washer. Yours for cost of shipping.
What do you mean by "pile" ? I'm always up for more parts!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 11, 2018, 20:42:53
Waste of time measuring top edge of piston to bore. It runs hot and expands to fill the gap.
 About 10mm~15mm from base is where you measure. (depends on type and manufacturer.
I always look for the largest diameter I can find, 90 degrees to pin.
You need to use micrometer, I use inch as I don't have metric with thousandths of mm(tenthousandths of inch vernier micrometers are more commonso much cheaper than metric versions)
Most pistons are made 'surfboard' shaped on lower edge, reduces friction and promotes oil film, but, they can build up an oil wedge at very high rpm and may give a 'smokey' motor as oil rings can't cope. It's part of the reason I like OEM pistons, they were designed to work very well to a specific rpm, plus 3~4 K before oil control is a problem
You told me in PM how to measure and I gave those instructions to the machine shop he said that's how he does it anyway so I'm confident in the work done, the valve seats look great, he lapped them in after, 1mm oversize KPMI intakes and I'm doing the porting myself, smoothed the casting lines, d shaped exhaust, smoothed transition and matched intakes to boots
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 12, 2018, 14:41:38
Should be a little pocket rocket when done  8)
Try not to hurt yourself  ;)
 
Title: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: onefromexile on May 12, 2018, 15:50:00
I may use this scale to check that out, they are different in diameter by a couple thousandths so when I gave instructions to machine shop for boring they bored a right and left differently
 One is probably lighter than the other
Well they should be slightly oval not exactly round the pistons
The bore should be exact
There is a reason I just canít remember exactly how to phrase it


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89466)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 12, 2018, 16:58:24
Should be a little pocket rocket when done  8)
Try not to hurt yourself  ;)
Me? Get hurt? I'm invincible! That's the 19 year old U.S. Marine talking

Now I'm 36 with kids...  I just really wanna beat my friends CB900 with this bike I know I can do it
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 12, 2018, 19:06:29
I went with Arias on my build. 210g each. ;D

But then I broke them and swapped over to GS850s..   :(
If I remember from your HTn thread you did that because you were doing megacycles cam?
I forgot to ask what was all involved in getting that came. Why they needed a special piston, probably due to the amount of lift. I thought I would drop a megacycles cam and titanium springs in at a later date but I wont get to do that if the pistons need work too
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 12, 2018, 21:26:16
Me? Get hurt? I'm invincible! That's the 19 year old U.S. Marine talking

Now I'm 36 with kids...  I just really wanna beat my friends CB900 with this bike I know I can do it
If it's the 1979~82 CB900, find somewhere with several medium to tight turns with no long straights and he'll think he's riding a three legged camel (*if it's one of them, he is  ;D )They are a heavy lump to hustle through a series of twisties  ;)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 12, 2018, 23:40:27
If it's the 1979~82 CB900, find somewhere with several medium to tight turns with no long straights and he'll think he's riding a three legged camel (*if it's one of them, he is  ;D )They are a heavy lump to hustle through a series of twisties  ;)

it's an 82 and it's been "cafe'd" out but as i learn about doing mine, not very well... just basic "cafe racer" stuff and no performance gains. much lighter than stock I imagine
where we raced last time is close to what you described, but there are 2 main sections of long straights he just pulled away so fast on

question, how much blu-tack should I get to check valve clearance? and can I do it with no valve springs in just valves closed and everything torqued down?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: NvgtrWiggles on May 13, 2018, 00:44:47
What do you mean by "pile" ? I'm always up for more parts!

6 mostly complete engines.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 13, 2018, 12:21:58
6 mostly complete engines.
Cool, I'd buy a spare complete! I'm always getting spare parts on Ebay just in case


Just about to do the valve clearance test on the engine when I get back from the store with some blu-tack or something similar. I assumed staples would have it. They don't.

Although I really dont know what to do if they are too close... maybe order new gasket?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on May 13, 2018, 12:30:45
Well they should be slightly oval not exactly round the pistons
The bore should be exact
There is a reason I just canít remember exactly how to phrase it


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89466)

Pistons are thinner from side to side compared to front to back.  That's to reduce viscous drag in the same way that slipper pistons are designed but at a much lower cost of manufacturing.

They are also smaller at the top where they get hotter and expand more than at the bottom of the skirt where they stay cooler and expand less.

Pistons also rocks lightly and the bottom 1/2" or so tends to be more worn and that's why they tell you to measure a little way up from the bottom of the skirt.

And yes, pistons do tend to be slightly different from one to another, so your machine shop should always bore each side to match a particular piston and they should come back marker 1,2 or something similar.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on May 13, 2018, 12:40:10
If I remember from your HTn thread you did that because you were doing megacycles cam?
I forgot to ask what was all involved in getting that came. Why they needed a special piston, probably due to the amount of lift. I thought I would drop a megacycles cam and titanium springs in at a later date but I wont get to do that if the pistons need work too

"hotter" cams usually have more lift and more duration (held open for longer), so they tend to need more piston to valve clearance than a stock cam.  Some motors have enough clearance to get away with hotter cams, but some are tight stock and need valves to be recessed slightly or pockets cut in the piston crowns - or both if you mill the head and fit race cams.

The process is simple but tedious.  You build the motor with light valve springs and gently turn it over to see when the valves touch the pistons and then back off the valve adjustment until it just turns over.  Then you calculate how much valve clearance you have when the valves are closed and that's a starting point for how much to cut the pistons or head.

You want about 40 -60 thou clearance between valve and piston at the point they are closest to each other and obviously there must be clearance between the valves which can be an issue when fitting large valves.

Repeat until you have sufficient clearance and then assemble the motor for real.

With race motors, that's just how it goes.  With mid cams there may be sufficient clearance if you get lucky.  Sometimes the motor clicks as it runs when pistons touch the valves and then it's motor out time again.   
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 13, 2018, 13:46:29
Use modeling clay or Play Doh to check clearance. Michaels, ToysRUs, etc With pistons, the extra mass around gudgeon pins expands more than thinner sections which is another reason 'sides' are reduced diameter. If your pistons are sticking out 0.010", you use a 0.050" head hasket or next thicker one. You want around 0.035"~0.040" piston to head clearance
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 13, 2018, 18:07:20
Use modeling clay or Play Doh to check clearance. Michaels, ToysRUs, etc With pistons, the extra mass around gudgeon pins expands more than thinner sections which is another reason 'sides' are reduced diameter. If your pistons are sticking out 0.010", you use a 0.050" head hasket or next thicker one. You want around 0.035"~0.040" piston to head clearance

i'm having a hard time getting a good pic of the porting work. It's not stellar, it's not much - I didn't want to overdo it and run into lost power I have seen that on CB360 threads where a guy ported his head out and lost horsepower then argued that he needed better jetting on the carbs. LOL so all I did was smooth the transition area around the seats to get rid of any drastic surface changes, I then used a marker to indicated where on the intakes they matched up to the boots and opened it up so it's a perfect match now (and marked each boot left and right) on the exhaust side I used the old gaskets still in the head to mark the top portion for opening up to that diameter, d-shaped the ports, raising the roof a little where the valve guide bosses are and made the transition really smooth by shaving the sides of the boss near the tip of the guide so it's more triangular.

against all advice I used my dremel tool with a pen extension and carbide bits for this work - it actually went very well I took my time and had all the work done in less than 2 hours. the dremel worked very fast, and I am sure if I was using a 1/4" die grinder I would have destroyed the head in about 42 seconds. the bit also left a finish that is near identical to the factory cast finish inside the ports and I'm happy with that, as it will mean I didn't do anything too crazy changing intake velocity (I'm sure it's not as critical on the exhaust side) the lines inside the intake ports from casting were barely noticable, I took some time making sure that any protrusions were knocked back to the median surface area.

I guess I should assembly the valve train with springs then?

pistons are absolute level with top of deck with the .050" base gasket, so I have a .042" gasket. I wanted to get closer to the min spec but played it safe.


oh and eye candy since it's been a few pages since any good progress was made
thanks PJ!

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/444707695597977600/445255039708037130/20180512_195749.jpg)

got front end on so I could measure and make cables for remote master cylinder

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/444707695597977600/444731340756221955/20180508_203125.jpg)

I wish I didn't need a headlight
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 13, 2018, 21:14:32
Don't try and fit carbs with filters fitted, you need to be able to pull them in until they 'clunk' into place.I don't remember the overflow tube being bent when I shipped the carbs?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 13, 2018, 23:32:32
Don't try and fit carbs with filters fitted, you need to be able to pull them in until they 'clunk' into place.I don't remember the overflow tube being bent when I shipped the carbs?

oh i'm still a little ways off before I fit the carbs - just put everything together to look.
I think I mentioned the bent tube in PMs - it was done in shipping, pretty obvious in the packaging where it happened it just poked through all padding and bent, not big deal it isn't kinked and I already bought a replacement bowl - I'm not using it, because these polished ones are too pretty
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 14, 2018, 11:53:31
That must have had one hell of a hit, I pack them pretty good. It's the first one I've ever had damaged in shipping.I doubt it's worth the shipping to send it for polishing, probably get it done cheaper local?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 14, 2018, 12:09:43
That must have had one hell of a hit, I pack them pretty good. It's the first one I've ever had damaged in shipping.I doubt it's worth the shipping to send it for polishing, probably get it done cheaper local?
I can do it myself I just have a lot of work left on the bike and very little time to do it, I want to ride it to the bike show on the 29th!

I did my side covers....
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 14, 2018, 12:15:48
I know it's a lot of work to get them that good, looks like you didn't have any major damage from brake pedal chewing on it Should be fine for 29th but no matter how far you get you'll still be 'tinkering' the night before and probably 'on the day'
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 14, 2018, 12:18:40
I know it's a lot of work to get them that good, looks like you didn't have any major damage from brake pedal chewing on it?

there was a pretty good scratch, it's hard to see in original because the oxidation anyway, but it required a sander, lots of hand sanding to get it flat. I also smoothed the flashing marks and sharp edges where the oil dipstick go, and on the sprocket cover just trimmed a lot of excess in the areas where they simply cheap cast it and made it line up more wit the engine case
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on May 14, 2018, 15:07:44
I know it's a lot of work to get them that good, looks like you didn't have any major damage from brake pedal chewing on it Should be fine for 29th but no matter how far you get you'll still be 'tinkering' the night before and probably 'on the day'


Sounds like racing.  Always work to be done right up to tech inspection, and sometimes we go through that with the bike complete and then tear it down to work on it after it has the royal seal of approval......  ;-)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: The Jimbonaut on May 14, 2018, 15:14:26
How in the hell did you get your engine covers looking like that?!  Really nice work!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 14, 2018, 15:54:47
Sounds like racing.  Always work to be done right up to tech inspection, and sometimes we go through that with the bike complete and then tear it down to work on it after it has the royal seal of approval......  ;-)
Yep, been there  ;)   
As for polishing, by hand it's just a loy of 'elbow grease' going through different grades of 'Wetordry' before buffing
 
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 14, 2018, 16:26:52
How in the hell did you get your engine covers looking like that?!  Really nice work!
Lol, I was amazed myself.
Sanding by hand, first with red scotchbrite pad, then 400grit sandpaper, then 600. Then 1000. Then polishing wheel on 8" buffer using semichrome aluminum polish then smaller loose wheel. It's not as good as some I've seen. But ok.

Also. Ports. Feedback? Still got time to make better if needed
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on May 14, 2018, 16:29:21
Looks good to me. Put on the rubber intake manifolds and try to match the lip, too.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 14, 2018, 16:41:36
Looks good to me. Put on the rubber intake manifolds and try to match the lip, too.
Most definitely!


also, anyone know where I can get these:
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/cap-tappet-adjuster_12361rrp010/


in the US?
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on May 14, 2018, 17:53:52
That could use a slight clean up.  The guide bosses could also be slimmed a little but keep the olive shape so that gas will flow easily past the obstruction.   try not to open up the exhaust and don't remove that step in the floor.  It will act as somewhat of an anti reversion dam.

But you get most out of porting from the 1/2 inch to an inch past the valve seat.  You need a venturi shape and smooth transition.  You will probably find that both ports are restricted around the guide and valve and at the point the short turn radius should be as smooth as possible and raise the roof to get the appropriate area.  Do not drop the floors - they are already too low for good flow.

And do NOT polish the intake - it hurts power because fuel drops out of suspension and won't burn properly
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 14, 2018, 18:46:05
That could use a slight clean up.  The guide bosses could also be slimmed a little but keep the olive shape so that gas will flow easily past the obstruction.   try not to open up the exhaust and don't remove that step in the floor.  It will act as somewhat of an anti reversion dam.

But you get most out of porting from the 1/2 inch to an inch past the valve seat.  You need a venturi shape and smooth transition.  You will probably find that both ports are restricted around the guide and valve and at the point the short turn radius should be as smooth as possible and raise the roof to get the appropriate area.  Do not drop the floors - they are already too low for good flow.

And do NOT polish the intake - it hurts power because fuel drops out of suspension and won't burn properly

thanks,  what do you mean by olive shape? don't "triangle" them off? I remember from a couple other threads not to go anywhere near the floor of exhausts. I did make sure I smoothed off the radius so it wasn't a "sharp turn" without dropping it
Here is where I know more harm than good can easily be done so I did my best to retain shape and size, only matching the intakes with the boots, the exhausts with the gaskets (except the bottom part) and smooth the transition in the seat area where the casting goes against the seat, made it all nice and neat and a smooth flow.

I only kind of understand the theory of port shape and size, I don't know enough algebra to assume that I am a better port designer than Honda was (even in the 70s) so I figured it best to not reshape even in the roof area. I know that the ports get wider in the area of the guide boss as air can get squished in there - I just knocked back all the casting lines and a few imperfections. This head was actually pretty good, not like some cast ones I have seen inside it looks like a huge thick flashing, this was even barely noticeable
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 15, 2018, 13:36:30
Leave guide bosses 'rounded' but narrow them down on valve head side of guide. If you have a 'radius' around guide flow will be better than step. On exhaust you can change the  'lead in' a little more, I like to reduce angle of the 'hump' just before exit (gas is hot and dry  so may not actually do any good?
 I tend to make 'flow diverters' by making sides of  bosses concave  (triangular) but it does increase post volume so you loose a little bottom end.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on May 15, 2018, 14:47:48
The reason that ports get wider at the restriction is to try to keep the cross sectional area up without dropping the floor or breaking through into the valve seat pockets when the roof is raised too much.

I used teh word "olive" to describe the current shape of the guide boss.  It gets wider and then narrower as it approached the guide, that helps flow to go out and them come back around the valve stem.  If it was a straight triangle shape the gas would continue to flow "out" away from the valve as it passes it and that would reduce flow.

One issue with our old heads is that the ports are low with tight radius bends and that hurts flow compared to a modern motor with very steep down draft intake ports.

AG Bell in his book on Performance for 4 strokes has the whole intake port mapped out and so do some of David Vizard's texts.

On the intake we tend to open up the apparent restriction just below the seat and unfortunately that cuts flow by directing it at the valve head instead of around it. That's why there's a radius to get the flow around the valve when it's opening.

https://www.google.com/search?q=4+stroke+venturi+port+vizard&client=firefox-b-1&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=NUJ2dqkXybMikM%253A%252CGAUDPSbsruuSPM%252C_&usg=__3jV63e6IpKyKhbJu6243u-c27p0%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSxoyIo4jbAhXJq1QKHTgRD5YQ9QEIKTAA#imgrc=_
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 15, 2018, 15:43:01
Quite often I've deepened the 'pocket' on the long side to direct flow around valve head instead of into it. It's often necessary to do so to get venturi 'correct' below valve head, particularly when 'short turn' is a real bad shape (as on 360's or Iron Head Sportsters)
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 16, 2018, 00:29:15
Working away late into the night, someone asked me how much per ounce I've spent making this bike lighter.... what a stupid question,  now I'm depressed
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: teazer on May 16, 2018, 00:33:10
Add lightness.  That's how we improve power to weight ratio.  Holes are good.  Replacing steel with aluminum is good, using Titanium is nuts unless people can see it and admire your excellent tastes and previously deep pockets.   
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 16, 2018, 12:28:45
My father always told me " add lightness and simplicate'  ;D
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 16, 2018, 14:54:23
My father always told me " add lightness and simplicate'  ;D
"Nothing is lighter than a hole" is my favorite thing I've heard.



Also, is it possible to push the cam chain tensioner down through the top of the case without splitting the case or using the "pushbar pulling tool" ?

I added a couple mounts for the aluminum electronics tray, didnt have enough carbon fiber to make a new one so I had to use aluminum.

Those "rails" along the frame will hold the seat in place

I'm getting better at welding
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: jpmobius on May 16, 2018, 20:06:31
using Titanium is nuts unless people can see it and admire your excellent tastes and previously deep pockets.

Wisdom!  I've had competitors that needed your consulting services - you can talk them out of the hundreds of dollars of titanium fasteners "aloft" in the rig of their 10,000 lb sailboats so I can find them a more appropriate home on my pick up!

Welds are indeed looking improved!
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 16, 2018, 23:40:49
If proboltusa.com sold the right length 10mm bolts for my engine mounts I would be using them. Lol.

Valves in! Getting closer. Yes they were leak tested, poured a small amount of acetone in the ports, none leaked out. I thought I would have to lap them, but the machine shop that did the seats did it for me, which I thought was nice of them.


Oh by the way, notice the oil stain lines on the head inside the reservoirs? Bike only had a side stand... haha
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: Sonreir on May 17, 2018, 11:57:02
I thought I would have to lap them, but the machine shop that did the seats did it for me, which I thought was nice of them.

Lapping valves is a lot less common these days. Machining and tooling is more precise than it used to be, so if the valves had to be lapped at all, that would be unusual. Not necessarily bad, but it should raise eyebrows.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 17, 2018, 12:22:21
Lapping valves is a lot less common these days. Machining and tooling is more precise than it used to be, so if the valves had to be lapped at all, that would be unusual. Not necessarily bad, but it should raise eyebrows.

oh, well that makes sense then. I didn't lap them because I forgot my lapping compount at the shop and engine is at home - I used some prussian blue, they came out perfect, so I did the leak test... they were perfect. I assumed he lapped them but what you said makes more sense
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: crazypj on May 17, 2018, 17:23:07
On most modern engines you can't lap valves as the hardening isn't deep enough and will wear off to softer material underneathe
As for cam chain tensioner, yes, you can use a long bar from top. Make sure to radius end so it fits into cup on bottom. Loosen adjuster with bar in place and see if it moves up any further.
Title: Re: 75 CB360 - bad omen "yatagarasu" build
Post by: MiniatureNinja on May 19, 2018, 17:58:58
Ran into a snag. In my haste and inexperience, I overlooked the fact that I would need the updated top tensioner hold down for the new tensioners. Amazed that NONE of the people that sell this part make it clear that if you are updating this on an old motor you NEED To source the correct holder and probably a rubber bumper too. That item should be here Wednesday and I can get to buttoning up the motor.

Frame fabrication is done, so I painted it satin black with VHT rollbar and chassis paint. I would have loved to get it powdercoated but let's not go there... only one place has a cabinet big enough to sandblast this frame and they want $400 to do the work. no!