exploding battery

Losmanja

New Member
Has anyone had any issues with their battery self destructing? Ive put a couple hundred miles on this 4-cell carbonspeed battery and it has been working fine. Yesterday i took a long highway ride, about 45 minutes at about 80-85 mph constant speed. When i got off the highway and brought the rpm's down, the bike just died. I called the wife to come get me in the truck, and when I got home this is what i found under the seat. Any idea why this happened? I dont really understand all the electronics, but Im thinking maybe regulator malfunctioned and i overcharged it on the long ride? Maybe the heat? Im in south FL and it was 90+ yesterday.
 

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I think more info is needed. What bike, what changes have you made if any to the electrics, and how does this battery compare to the OEM model?
 
Over charging would be my guess. Your Ah rate is too low for what the charging system is putting out. Resulting in a boiled/exploding batt.
 
Looks like one of those lithium batteries. I still don't trust them enough to use one, especially on a vintage bike. I recommend using a standard lead acid or AGM battery specified for your bike.
 
78 cb750k with dyna ignition. I have a kill switch on the headlight to turn it off while starting. Other than that everything else is stock.

"Your Ah rate is too low for what the charging system is putting out."
How can I measure what my charging system is putting out, so I could try to better match a battery. Doesnt the regulator limit overcharging? How do I check to see if the regulator is bad?

I was thinking of upgrading to cyclex's charging system and running no battery at all. Just hesitant to unload $450. Its an expensive fix for my ignorance when it comes to batteries, amp hours, regulators, etc.
http://www.cyclexchange.net/Elec%20System%20Comp%20Page.htm
 
The regulator regulates voltage, not amperage.
Make sure the battery you have is in the 7-8 Amp/hour range and you should be fine. Is that a four-cell battery with which you started? The rating on those is usually around the 2.5 A/h mark.
 
CB750 has an electromagnetic alternator and can put out up to 20+ amps if regulator thinks battery is 'flat'
You have to have voltage to get generator working, a lead acid may not be what you want, but it is what you need.
Check amperage with, of all things, an amp meter.
It's pretty easy to do a little math when you know generator max output, you have the link to convert watts to amps
 
fyi to anyone who is considering using a Carbon Speed battery. I emailed them twice about the exploding battery and its been 17 days with no response. I dont see how anyone could stay in business with that type of work ethic.

On a side note FedEx tracking says my new cycle-x charging system will be here today. Im going to try the new charging system with a capacitor in place of the battery. Ill post results when its done.
 
Still no response from Carbon Speed batteries. Whether it was my fault or not, they still should have at least responded. Quick to take the order, not so quick after the sale. Lame.

On a good note, the charging system from Cycle-x worked like a charm! I used a capacitor (size of a roll of quarters) in place of the battery. No starter. Kick. Vroom! Awesome. Ken at Cycle-x is the man.
 
crazypj said:
CB750 has an electromagnetic alternator and can put out up to 20+ amps if regulator thinks battery is 'flat'
You have to have voltage to get generator working, a lead acid may not be what you want, but it is what you need.
Check amperage with, of all things, an amp meter.
It's pretty easy to do a little math when you know generator max output, you have the link to convert watts to amps


20 Amps? Are you sure about that? 20 Amps isn't an awful lot, but for a motorcycle it is a stupendous amount of power for the alternator to put out.
 
20x12=240w
Your right, the sohc will only 'do' about 12amps, the dohc will 'do' about 20
12amps (144w) is plenty to kill a small battery designed for 2w charge rate though
 
But a regulator should limit the amp current of the charging system, dependent upon battery voltage. Most small engine regulators (lawn mowers, motorcycles, etc) use a grounding type regulator that literally shorts one leg of the alternator to ground to reduce current charge, rather than removing voltage from it the way a car would. This system creates a lot of heat, hence the cooling fins on most of the regulators. From what I understand, some of the CB regulators are actually adjustable, though (and not solid state), so you may actually be able to reduce the charging rate of the regulator and make it work by adjustment. Member Ringo did this on his CB550 with great results.

I have plenty of time on my VTR with the Lithium Iron Phosphate battery installed, and it works great. Another help to you may be to actually add some form of load to the charging system (more lights, etc), to use more current and take some load off the regulator.

Lead acid batteries are heavy and lame ;D
 
Regulators regulate by volts, batteries charge with amps.
Amperage is not regulated.
You loose about 51% of output AC voltage on a half wave rectifier
As generator can easily put out around 110+ no load AC volts at max rpm, you have to regulate the excess (unregulated DC volts after rectification can easily reach 25~30v at 2,500~ 3,000rpm)
 
I didn't say current was regulated, but rather that voltage is regulated by controlling current (redirecting or reducing it). I was describing the process by which voltage is regulated on a motorcycle regulator.

Charging systems are regulated through the current (amps) production, since alternators charge in amps, not volts.Therefore the only way to affect charging rate is to vary the current flow, not the voltage. A three phase alterntator rated for 90 amps/ 12 volts can still charge 12 volts with two legs down, but will only produce 30 amps.(And if a load is placed upon the system putting out only 30 amps, the voltage will fall off rapidly as the potential of the circuit begins to flow more current through the applied loads). Voltage is not substance for operating anything other than the standard for the operating system, whereas current flow is king for any accessory/ battery/ charging system. For instance, battery voltage on many motorcycles and small engines is maintained by redirecting current (amps) to ground, thereby reducing the amount of field winding in service, as balanced by the load on the charging system, to allow an operating voltage of 12 volts. On cars, the field windings are simply switched off, producing the same end result with less heat.

More practically speaking, as in the case of my VTR battery burning, the load on the battery was not able to consume the necessary current in order to assist an already taxed regulator in dissipating all of the required current to keep the battery voltage down. I suspect this is what happened above as well.

Not sure how you are rectifying current from a generator, either, since a generator charges in DC volts...probably meant alternator, eh? :D
 
I'm not an electrical engineer, but......................................
If it's DC generator, it's a dynamo
If it's an AC generator, it's an alternator
A generator generates ;)
If I had meant DC generator, I would either have written it as one or called it a dynamo.
Voltage is regulated, not amperage even though the two are related
Mechanical regulators can only switch around 60 cycles/sec, electronic regulators can switch at several hundreds or even thousand times a second.
They all require the correct battery in circuit to work properly.
The newer the bike, the less leeway you have to modify anything
Suzuki have a recall on I think 2007 reg/rectifier as at least one overheated bad enough to set bike on fire resulting in a buyback, you can probably Google recalls and find details.
Honda have a recall all the way back to 2003
 
Still not really sure where you get off thinking I said that current is regulated, since I never said that...I am simply re-iterating that current control is what regulates voltage on a motorcycle. Period. If you have found a way to regulate voltage on any automotive system without affecting current flow, I am all ears...

To simply state that voltage is regulated and melted your battery is the same as saying that because your three phase alternator putting out one third the rated current at the specified voltage is good, because the volts are good. The two(volts and amps) go together in diagnosis every time. Just as a hydraulic system cannot be diagnosed on either pressure or flow alone, so can an electrical system not be diagnosed in the same way. This is because every mobile electrical system is dependent upon voltage at a rated current to operate. Measuring one will not necessarily reveal a problem with the other (ie. testing a charging system by measuring battery voltage, or testing a battery by measuring across its terminals) To do so will allow you to miss your diagnosis a good portion of the time. I see it every day running a professional heavy diesel shop specializing in computerized control and monitor systems.

Current is king in the electrical world. Say you are checking a dim light bulb. Most people will measure supply voltage to the bulb. If they find 9 volts at their 12 volt rated bulb, they will look for the voltage drop and rectify it. However, the voltage drop is in actually a current restriction. The same thing would be measured from the amp side of the dial. Or, if you were to try to run a bulb that should draw 20 amps to illuminate properly, and you send one amp its way, the bulb most likely will not even light, and you would detect a very low voltage. In both cases, low current is the problem, though it is measured by voltage. Both measurements are critical to each other, though many troubleshooters will short cut by measuring only one or the other. I tend to prefer current measurements because I am that specific. Most people use voltage, since it seems to be easier, even if it is less exact.

To be a little more on track to this post, it was not overvoltage that cause the above battery to fail, but overcurrent, which would have been seen as overvoltage. Voltage is only a measurement of the "pressure" of the current flow in the electrical system, but not of the actual flow (amount) of current itself. And it is current that is actually producing the work; if this were not the case, fuses would be rated in volts, rather than in amps as they are. In the battery, the current flow from negative to positive (there I assume conventional electron theory applies) was unable to continue at the rate allowed by the regulator without causing voltage (pressure) to increase. And, as always, the resultant heat melted the battery pack.

And not to mince words, since your are technically correct in your definitions, but in the auto/moto world, a generator generated DC voltage (usually 6) and is long obsolete, and an alternator did the same for AC voltage. A bit confusing to read it stated as posted above in automotive context, since we had not lapsed into a discussion on electrics in general (but rather auto electrics), but I am sure you have been around long enough to appreciate the differrence. As far as how electronic regulators work, I wrote up a pretty extensive post on solid state regulators (both thyristor and MOSFET) around the time the one on my Honda burned up. Slower cycle times equal greater heat, and much less accurate regulation, especially given the crude motorcycle regulating systems.

But by now we have effectively hijacked this thread with a bunch of man-proving on something that doesn't really matter anyway. Cheers, bud. ;)
 
t71ford said:
Cheers, bud. ;)


I know what you mean, I know what I mean, pretty sure we're both saying the same thing in different ways?
it's all in the explanation
I think all 'English' speaking countries have some 'differences' ;D
They do say Britain and America are two countries separated by a common language :eek:
 
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