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Author Topic: The Red Bike  (Read 15797 times)

Offline kopcicle

  • Posts: 721
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The Red Bike
« on: May 06, 2012, 01:54:14 »
A '79 Yamaha XS650 2FO . I have modified the rear to accept the KZ750B LTD M1 twin 18" disc brake hub . At the moment the front is stock with he the exception of the second brake . The rear is modified only by way of spacers to center the disc in the caliper and turning down the drive hub center to accept more common KZ650 #530 sprockets . The disc itself is a Honda CB200C turned down .200" to fit inside the caliper . The bearings in the rear had to be changed to accept the Yamaha axle .

I found a WM4 2.50" 40 hole rim attached to a Sportster hub and a WM3 2.15 19" 36 hole rim from some dirt bike for the front . Both rims are vintage Akront .The angle of the spoke holes is well within limits for adaptation to the Yamaha and Kawasaki hubs . All I have to do is polish replacement hubs and rims and deliver to the Wheelmaster .

The engine is at present a stock bore XS650 with a 277/83 crank . All else other than a stock XS2 left cylinder decompression valve remains either stock Yamaha or modified Yamaha parts .

That is the red bike as we know it at this time .






~kop
« Last Edit: Apr 28, 2013, 00:55:32 by kopcicle »
"If a man wants to carry two cats home by their tails, by all means let him. He値l learn things that he might not have otherwise even guessed, and the experience will be one he値l not soon forget!"
~S. Clemens

If it leaks after all this? I'm gonna pull a "Brad" and bulldoze the fucker!

Quote from: Scruffy;1025553
As an equal opportunity bigot, I'll insult any brand, any style, any time...:wink:
-Scruffy

http://tinyurl.com/TheRedBike

https://www.gofundme.com/nancy039s-final-expenses RIP Nancy

Offline alpinaclone

  • Posts: 208
Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 07:37:11 »
What are your plans for the beast? Is it staying all red?
Bastard of a DR650 complete build: http://vintagefighters.yuku.com/topic/489

Offline kopcicle

  • Posts: 721
  • antidisestablishmentarian
Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 12:54:25 »
I have an alcohol engine in development for the bike . Probably next summer for that project .
Red ? That deserves an explanation . The frame was going to be painted because of  20 years plus of abuse so down to the metal it came . first in a hot tank and then by hand . I'll say this for Yamaha , whatever the paint or process what paint remained was removed by nearly a week in the hot tank . Commercial stripper wouldn't touch it . I had to resort to old fashioned elbow  grease  to get the remainder.
So where were we ? You wanted to know about red . I had gone the extra mile for a customer several times and he had access to powder coat . The original intended owner wanted red so red it was . A week after it had returned to the shop another customer shows up with the tank , painted rustoleum red .
The rear wheel shows up the next week in the hands of my machinist . The off side caliper was on my lift when I came to work days later .
Yet another customer heard of the project and donated some hoarded engines and goodies like the chrome engine covers and a couple piston sets .
Red it is save for a not very original but appropriate crossed tuning forks logo done in gold leaf destined for the tank . The one other embellishment will be a brass plaque in plain view . So many donated their time effort and parts to this build over the years that I can not in all good conscience let their efforts go unnoticed . Nearly 3/4 of the outside labor was donated . A fair half of the bright work was donated . The rear wheel complete was donated and created untold hours of modification to get it to it's simplest form here . The heavily modified front forks were returned to me after nearly 20 years by a fellow racer . The seat may need replacement even though it looks intact it belongs to a RD250C . A parts bike donated the tapered  needle roller bearings for the neck .
An experienced Honda parts guru sifted through seals to get the rear axle assembly finished . A customer taught me 135 x 18 degree split point drill bit sharpening that made going through brake discs near painless . The Wheelmaster has offered to do the wheels . I know the wheels will cost me but just what yet I don't know . For those of you in my corner of the country that know Morrie and Jim I'm sure you'll understand that whatever the cost I'll gladly pay . Having done near daily business with Morrie  for 25 of the 40 years I've known him I just don't ask any more .(yes I was part of the tide flat client鑞e in the '70's )   I close my eyes , sign the check  and have never regretted it .  For those of you out here that don't know Morrie it's time you did . All those names and a few more will be on that plaque .
Okay so I avoided it till now I guess I have to answer . Yeah , it's red . Red and chrome to be exact . She wanted it red . Eventually she didn't want me but wanted the bike red . So red it is .
~kop
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 13:06:51 by kopcicle »
"If a man wants to carry two cats home by their tails, by all means let him. He値l learn things that he might not have otherwise even guessed, and the experience will be one he値l not soon forget!"
~S. Clemens

If it leaks after all this? I'm gonna pull a "Brad" and bulldoze the fucker!

Quote from: Scruffy;1025553
As an equal opportunity bigot, I'll insult any brand, any style, any time...:wink:
-Scruffy

http://tinyurl.com/TheRedBike

https://www.gofundme.com/nancy039s-final-expenses RIP Nancy

Offline Ringo

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Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 13:34:00 »
Glad to see you around, Kop.  I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Chris

Offline kopcicle

  • Posts: 721
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Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 23:03:36 »
I was asked elsewhere so ...

The rear caliper is bone stock 2F0 . I was careful to leave as much of the conversion stock as possible . With the un-modified KZ750B LTD M1 twin 18" disc brake hub and rim the Honda disc centers in the caliper once .200" is taken off the diameter . Now one caution , the disc was "marked" CB200C but I did not take it off myself so I won't swear to it . I'm told that the KZ305 is very similar also so ya pays yer money and takes yer chances . I did turn down one side of the rear hub and I believe it was the sprocket side . I'll know more in a week or so . As the project stands the disc is centered in the caliper and the sprockets are so nearly in alignment that I may be able to let it go . I did have to futz with spacers for hours but it fits . I should say almost fits . I'll have to pull the wheel toward the drive side about .250" to put it on center line but with all else falling into place I'm far beyond complaining. I had considered the modification of the front hub to carry sprocket and disc but going without the dampener was more than I or the gearbox and transmission could tolerate .

~kop   
"If a man wants to carry two cats home by their tails, by all means let him. He値l learn things that he might not have otherwise even guessed, and the experience will be one he値l not soon forget!"
~S. Clemens

If it leaks after all this? I'm gonna pull a "Brad" and bulldoze the fucker!

Quote from: Scruffy;1025553
As an equal opportunity bigot, I'll insult any brand, any style, any time...:wink:
-Scruffy

http://tinyurl.com/TheRedBike

https://www.gofundme.com/nancy039s-final-expenses RIP Nancy

Offline Rich Ard

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Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #5 on: Apr 05, 2013, 12:54:12 »
subscribed. move it!
unplug the connectors from the harness and multimeter the shit out of them

Bad Points, a comic :: CB450 Restomod (sold) :: Viragostrosity :: GL1000 daily rider :: Kaw 175

Offline kopcicle

  • Posts: 721
  • antidisestablishmentarian
Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #6 on: Apr 28, 2013, 01:07:27 »
It's a xs650 limited by it's combustion chamber and center crank pin .
 The best thing about the over bore was gaining room for quench area and even at that some careful welding to fill in some obvious voids in the chamber .
 Some facts .
 Alcohol has approximately half the BTU's by volume than that of good gas (not pump)
 Alcohol has a greater latent heat of evaporation
 Alcohol has a stoichiometric mix  6.5:1 as opposed to 14.7 for gasoline .
 Most CV  diaphragms and rubber parts as well as the carb bodies won't put up with straight alcohol.Even intake port erosion can be a problem .
 The combustion chamber is steel on top and sides while the piston top is aluminum .
 Alcohol burns much slower and it's behavior near relatively cool combustion surfaces is way different than gasoline .
 So ...
 toss the BS36-38's
 Drop a significant sum on carbs and jets from Sudco  (real good people)
 Use an old Axtel mag or equivalent
 Be prepared to get it wrong a bunch of times possibly torching a piston or two and get used to tearing into it on a weekly basis .
 Fixed advance as much as 40  degrees
 Jets you can see big screen TV through
 Pistons running so close to the deck that at temperatures below 40 degrees the engine has to be heated just to provide enough deck clearance so it will turn over .
 Over advancing the timing without enough fuel and "banging" the tune up and having the rod bearings "peen" the crank .
 Having to carefully start the bike on gasoline then switch to alcohol .
 Freezing the carbs in high humidity .
 Having to nearly redesign the clutch or just spend the bucks at Heiden tuning . Might as well change the primary ratio while you're at it .
 Adapt XV 700-750 valves , Buy Manley stainless valves or keep an eye out for the titanium valve guy on fleabay .
 Hoos racing for the exhaust . They just get it .
 Fishead brakes .
 A stack of rear tires ,
 And on ...
 About 75 miles on a tank which drops drastically if you wrist it .
 About 78 hp and nearly as much torque in one of the most sensitive to state of tune compilations I've ever owned .
 I couldn't keep the thing together as a 360 degree crank . I had to twist the crank and cam . Crank is 277 degrees , You do the math for the cam I'm tired .
 This was an outgrowth of the 70's Yamaha ,Shell Thuet , race program with the same caveat as then . Even with the odd crank (the object was to have one piston at or near max acceleration while the other was at minimum ) The center crank pin and it's fit to the counter weights becomes a loose pin in a hand grenade waiting for a place to happen at power levels over 80 hp . Shock load it a lower levels and see the same result .
 
 Was it smart ? No,
 Was it fun ? Not really the engine development was a drain on my time and resources .
 Was it difficult ? Not really , it's just nutz and boltz .
 How close was I at first get ? Left field ( more like Landsdown Street . If you savvy baseball if not nevermind )
 Was it worth it ?  heh heh heh . Well ok some days yes . Other days it's wtf was I thinking
 .
So here we go again ....
"If a man wants to carry two cats home by their tails, by all means let him. He値l learn things that he might not have otherwise even guessed, and the experience will be one he値l not soon forget!"
~S. Clemens

If it leaks after all this? I'm gonna pull a "Brad" and bulldoze the fucker!

Quote from: Scruffy;1025553
As an equal opportunity bigot, I'll insult any brand, any style, any time...:wink:
-Scruffy

http://tinyurl.com/TheRedBike

https://www.gofundme.com/nancy039s-final-expenses RIP Nancy

Offline kopcicle

  • Posts: 721
  • antidisestablishmentarian
Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #7 on: Apr 28, 2013, 01:10:22 »
so ...
8.1" = 205.740 mm half the stroke = 37mm Cr 500 rod = 144mm MTC-K1327H compression height = 24.8793 205.740 mm deck -205.8793 assembled height +0.1393 mm or 0.0054" Think I'm close enough to worry it into spec with head and base gaskets ? :-)
8.1" is the distance frome crank centerline to top of the XS650 cylinder
The 1/2 kit price is $255.73 as these pistons were originally meant for a big arsed 1300+cc over bore of the Z1/KZ 903/1015
I think that beats the hell out of $400/pr don't you ?
Then again it took me countless hours to track down the information on the interwebz and on the phone
I am not soon going to forget that brain dead 20's something at Wiseco that told me the compression height was "proprietary"
Or Ross and J&E both wanting minimum orders of 8
Or the nameless ID10T that kept telling me " they have different pin diameters it won't work " no matter how many times I told him it was a CR500 rod with a different small end diameter " That's a two stroke rod " , well yeah , sooooo ...
So my machinist answers the email with the dimensions with " And what was so hard about that ?"
I get him on the phone and the voice of reason tells me " Dennis , not a whole lot of people think like you do . You're just going to have to accept that fact and learn to live with it . I have "

Get it from Mike or do it yourself the price difference isn't enough to quibble about . Any real savings will be from your machine shop of choice and or your assembling the pieces . I will stress for the novice that these discussions are all hypothetical until the assembly is trial fitted and the dimensions/clearances verified .
many thanks to Brett ,Greg , Dick , Bubba , LarryC , APE , Cliff @ MTC and Google Calc for the conversions .
http://xs650temp.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=EngineModified&thread=17014&page=1for the original thread .

 So the included valve angle of the Kawasaki 900-1100 up to 83 was 63 degrees . The included valve angle of the XS was 76 degrees for all but the OW72 head . This results in a 6.5 degree difference . The relative importance of this is that it allows for a continuous increase leading from the limited squish area into the combustion chamber . With the bore increase more area is exposed for modification . One of the things the Stock 650 lacked was little if any squish/quench area .

Just a little information on squish/quench area . It has been said that squish/quench area is a band-aid for poor combustion chamber design . On the other hand moderate but effective squish/quench area increases flame front turbulance during ignition cycle turn around through TDC and promotes slightly better scavenging during exhaust cycle turn around tdc at the expense of a short sharp pressure rise as the intake valve is opening . Originally thought to be an impediment to low lift intake flow further experimentation fount that the restance to the inertia of the the resonant intake charge tended to compress the charge prior to entry into the combustion chamber .
This eventually leads to a discussion in inlet valve/seat venturi/geometry at low lift and does not pertain to the present thought .
I just wanted to include that little bit of information as I'm sure most are aware that the intake valve is open a significant amount as the piston turns around during overlap .

~kop
« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2014, 05:14:34 by kopcicle »
"If a man wants to carry two cats home by their tails, by all means let him. He値l learn things that he might not have otherwise even guessed, and the experience will be one he値l not soon forget!"
~S. Clemens

If it leaks after all this? I'm gonna pull a "Brad" and bulldoze the fucker!

Quote from: Scruffy;1025553
As an equal opportunity bigot, I'll insult any brand, any style, any time...:wink:
-Scruffy

http://tinyurl.com/TheRedBike

https://www.gofundme.com/nancy039s-final-expenses RIP Nancy

Offline kopcicle

  • Posts: 721
  • antidisestablishmentarian
Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #8 on: Apr 28, 2013, 01:11:17 »
Mostly for Matt because we have/had some of the same issues .

The original bore for the XS is 75mm . The KZ bore originally was 72.5 .
So there is only a difference of 2.5 mm between the two or 1.25 mm between the dome of the KZ and the combustion chamber of the XS . That is considering that the clearance between the original pistons and their respective chambers is for now unknown . I still don't have the pistons in my hand . Just these photos offered with an apology by Cliff @ MTC . This after he found them on a shelf , while I was on the phone , taken with the only thing he had and sent via email before we got off the phone . (I will never pass up an opportunity for a shameless plug when someone steps up and outside the norm . Cliff not only represents MTC he , well , he just gets it. )

Looks like I'll be doing a bit of chamber work also . As you can see from the pistons there is a significant squish band that is fortunately tilted several degrees. So from the previous post the angle leading to the top of the chamber created by the valve faces is 6.5 degrees . It should be relatively easy to blend the squish band on the piston to the squish band in the head . What will take a bit of advanced modification will be matching the dome of the MTC to the chamber of the XS , they are bound to be different .

Fortune smiles on the bold , or foolish . The valve sizes are similar to the point where .5 mm isn't going to make much of a difference . I may have made mention of this before . The slope of the back side of the intake valve needs to lead smoothly over the top of the edge of the valve cut out in the piston for as long as possible . The intake valve is opening well before TDC , on the order of .040" @ 30 degrees before TDC and well up on the ramp . Another 30 degrees (15 degrees camshaft) and the piston is dwelling at or near TDC for nearly 15 degrees ,7.5 degrees either side of TDC .

Okay where does this bit of esoteric information come from ? Experience , trust me here , the volume of the combustion chamber changes very little across these 15 degrees because it shrinks to a minimum just after TDC because of centrifugal and inertial forces . It averages out over this rule of thumb 15 degrees in practice .
Again , trust me . The only reason I mention here is as a prelude to the combustion process I'll mention later . Simply , max cylinder pressure needs to occur anywhere after minimum combustion volume . Think on that until we get there .

Now We're at or just after TDC and the valve is well onto the ramp . The object is to "dwell" the valve just slightly inside the the valve cut out in the piston for as long as possible . Initial valve opening may temporarily bury the valve in the pocket but the mean portion of the lobe lift should allow the valve head to track the piston down the hole as closely as possible for as long as possible . This creates problems . The intake can only be open just so long before a late closing point allows the inertia of the intake charge to escape . You can only open the valve just so soon because the combination of exhaust scavenging and the overlap quench spike begin to revert unburned and combustion byproducts back into the intake and poison the incoming charge . These two factors determine the intake duration far more than mechanical interference .   Now we add to the confusion , total lobe lift / rocker arm ratio .
I'll not reproduce the math here and now but again , trust me . The inertia of a SOHC /rocker arm/valve assembly easily reaches into the several tons of  force region . What determines how fast the valve can open is the limits of how well the assembly can track the camshaft without departing the cam lobe .
I've chosen titanium valves not just to say I have titanium bits in my engine but to allow steeper ramps without  prohibitively heavy valve springs . To extend the valve and keep it near the surface of the piston as long as possible the last bit of lift has to happen fairly quickly as the piston begins it's acceleration away from TDC . Now those of you capable of visualizing these demands on the profile of a camshaft I commend you because It took me months to realize that what I've described is nearly square with the exception of the base circle and corners leading to and away from max lift . Fortunately one of the cam grinders I know and has been dealing with me for years understands that I'm a bit "different" and is working with me to provide a modification to an existing cam so that a completely new profile isn't needed . The work continues as I try and get the funds together for the pistons .

I now open the floor to your general insanity and specific ignorance . If not for you silly bastiches I wouldn't be attempting this throw back , full silly , irrational , nutjob build .

~kop
"If a man wants to carry two cats home by their tails, by all means let him. He値l learn things that he might not have otherwise even guessed, and the experience will be one he値l not soon forget!"
~S. Clemens

If it leaks after all this? I'm gonna pull a "Brad" and bulldoze the fucker!

Quote from: Scruffy;1025553
As an equal opportunity bigot, I'll insult any brand, any style, any time...:wink:
-Scruffy

http://tinyurl.com/TheRedBike

https://www.gofundme.com/nancy039s-final-expenses RIP Nancy

Offline crazypj

  • Posts: 13271
  • Split personality, I fake being smart
Re: The Red Bike
« Reply #9 on: Apr 28, 2013, 02:24:36 »
Interesting thread, glad I found it at last  ;)
I was wondering about the big bore KZ pistons, been using modified 84mm XV 750 pistons with my CR500 long rod motors
 I haven't bothered with oversize exhaust valves, just did XV inlets
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'
Best thing I ever overheard
"yep, PJ's my boss, he taught me everything I know, just didn't teach me everything he knows"
Brian Morgan, 1982

CB360's,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11736.0
XS650,  http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=11922.0