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Author Topic: "the Mooch"  (Read 72105 times)

Offline J-Rod10

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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #70 on: Aug 21, 2017, 06:58:41 »
More folks, who actually have an audience, hopping on the Washington/Jefferson train.

That didn't take a week from the first mention of it, to people hopping on the bandwagon.

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Online stroker crazy

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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #71 on: Aug 21, 2017, 07:57:08 »
That didn't take a week from the first mention of it, to people hopping on the bandwagon.

It's a distinct possibility that some are using it as a distraction from more serious matters!

And some are just trolling.

Crazy
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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #72 on: Aug 21, 2017, 11:08:24 »
While I generally agree with the intent of your post, I don't agree with the accuracy of your statement.  Lee served the US military for 32 years before secession.  He was a celebrated officer during the Mexican-American War and he served as Superintendent of West Point.  He served the US for 32 years and the Confederacy for 4 years.  He followed Virginia into the war, but he himself had nothing to do with it secession.  Lee actually lobbied against secession and he was offered a senior command for the US.  It could be argued that his service to the US should be celebrated, but his service to the Confederacy should not.  To most people, one nullifies the other and I won't argue that point.  I just think Lee isn't seen in the most accurate light and it should be pointed out.

I guess I would be more sympathetic to this position if a few facts weren't in the way. Despite his prior record, and despite an offer for a senior position in the Union army, he chose to defend slavery and in the process of defending slavery killed more Americans than another other general opposing Americans. That's a pretty big flaw to overcome. The monuments to Lee don't emphasize his record prior the Civil War with a caveat that says "and then there was the whole unfortunate defending slavery thing, but let's not focus on that part;" they are monuments to the Confederacy that emphasize his role as commanding an army designed to defend the practice of slavery. Although the New Orleans monument was put up in 1880, most monuments to the Confederacy were put up in the early 20th century (to reinforce Jim Crow) or in the 1960s (as a reaction to the Civil Rights Movement), and many (most?) were paid for by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

And as I mentioned earlier, Lee himself was on record as opposing monuments to the Confederacy as he predicted (sagely, I suppose) that they would prove divisive.   
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Offline irk miller

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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #73 on: Aug 21, 2017, 11:28:50 »
Although the New Orleans monument was put up in 1880, most monuments to the Confederacy were put up in the early 20th century (to reinforce Jim Crow) or in the 1960s (as a reaction to the Civil Rights Movement), and many (most?) were paid for by the Daughters of the Confederacy.
 
I covered all that in a previous post.  Your previous statement about Lee just needed more information. Like I said, I hold the same opinion, but I also prefer to have all the details on the table.  There's the position of being anti-American and pro-Slavery being discussed as they relate to these monuments.  Also, your position about Lee highlights a justification to remove all monuments of former slave owners, including those in the Union. 

Offline J-Rod10

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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #74 on: Aug 21, 2017, 12:39:16 »
I think we can all agree that slavery is/was abhorrent.

However, I have a hard time condemning people of that past who lived within the social constructs of their time.

We think the way we do now, because we were taught to do so. Just as those men were taught in their lifetimes.
Monday morning quarterbacking doesn't offer anything than division amongst the people.   

Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #75 on: Aug 21, 2017, 14:15:04 »
I covered all that in a previous post.  Your previous statement about Lee just needed more information. Like I said, I hold the same opinion, but I also prefer to have all the details on the table.  There's the position of being anti-American and pro-Slavery being discussed as they relate to these monuments.  Also, your position about Lee highlights a justification to remove all monuments of former slave owners, including those in the Union.

No, it doesn't, although I'm curious why you think it does. Not all slave holders joined a revolt against the US to defend slavery -- isn't that part of what I've been emphasizing? Others had accomplishments that are feted that have nothing to do with slavery.
"Remember when Goldwings were sexy? Me neither" -- Comet Tavern bathroom, Seattle.

Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #76 on: Aug 21, 2017, 14:21:08 »
I think we can all agree that slavery is/was abhorrent.

However, I have a hard time condemning people of that past who lived within the social constructs of their time.

We think the way we do now, because we were taught to do so. Just as those men were taught in their lifetimes.
Monday morning quarterbacking doesn't offer anything than division amongst the people.

True -- although the social construct of the time, the 1860s, was broad and included people vehemently opposed to slavery, including many in the South. And including those of African descent in the South, it should go without saying. And abolitionist movements in (what became) the US date to the 17th century. People made choices as to whether they supported slavery, influenced by the situation around them ("how will I get my cotton picked without slavery?" e.g.). People chose to support slavery, people chose to go to war over slavery (not everyone, of course). It's not meant to be divisive Monday morning QBing, but partly it's a continuing attempt to address historical wrongs. Shouldn't be anything wrong with that in a mature society, which is why the defensiveness on one side invites questions as to motive (reinforced by idiots who march with Nazi symbols).
"Remember when Goldwings were sexy? Me neither" -- Comet Tavern bathroom, Seattle.

Offline J-Rod10

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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #77 on: Aug 21, 2017, 14:29:17 »
True -- although the social construct of the time, the 1860s, was broad and included people vehemently opposed to slavery, including many in the South. And including those of African descent in the South, it should go without saying. And abolitionist movements in (what became) the US date to the 17th century. People made choices as to whether they supported slavery, influenced by the situation around them ("how will I get my cotton picked without slavery?" e.g.). People chose to support slavery, people chose to go to war over slavery (not everyone, of course). It's not meant to be divisive Monday morning QBing, but partly it's a continuing attempt to address historical wrongs. Shouldn't be anything wrong with that in a mature society, which is why the defensiveness on one side invites questions as to motive (reinforced by idiots who march with Nazi symbols).
I meant more of the Washington/Jefferson rumblings that are now going on, 100 years prior to the Civil War.

Offline Scooter trash

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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #78 on: Aug 22, 2017, 10:01:34 »
The statues that were raised up during the Jim Crow era up to the sixties...bleh!
« Last Edit: Aug 22, 2017, 10:04:30 by Scooter trash »
Asphalt, the greatest tattoo remover.

Offline J-Rod10

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Re: "the Mooch"
« Reply #79 on: Aug 23, 2017, 13:27:48 »
It's getting wild out there.

Guy is Asian to boot.

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