CB360 Rat Rod got to run on the dyno

tweakedlogic

Been Around the Block
Before you get too excited, the engine is stock and worn out. I've got some K&N filters and pipes. Most of my performance came from removing everything that didn't make it go or stop or pass inspection. My estimate when they pulled it in was 25 horse power and 15 ft torque.

I was surprised on a couple levels. My power estimate was conservative. HP was 28.2 and TQ was 18.3. The most surprising thing is that I'm run super rich. That's surprising cause the way the bike was acting I thought I was lean. Another surprise was that my points are floating about 1500 RPM earlier than they should. Not sure about what to do about the points at this time. future plans are to go electronic.

As for the rich fuel mix, an intelligent person would say to change the main jet to a smaller size and re-run. You might have wondered why I used Tweaked logic as my handle... Well, I thought it might be better to add more air instead. Hopefully gain a few extra numbers over what I would get if I just dialed in the jetting.

So i spent half the day porting and polishing my carbs. The idea is to have the throat of the carb act more like a velocity stack, and smooth things out so the air will flow better. I also put a knife edge on the butterflies, and cut off half the butterfly shaft. Tomorrow I'll be on the hunt for flat screw heads that hopefully will sit flush with the butterfly (those kind that are tapered down on the head). If I find a suitable screw set, I'm going to have to camfer the screw holes. Before the flamers start in, that high polish is only before the fuel. I did smooth things out a little behind the jets with some 320 grit by hand, but that's all. I only used the die grinder and polish on the throat bell before the fuel jets.

I couple months ago I ported and polished a spare head I had around. Valve job and new seals and all. I was waiting to install it until I gathered some more parts, like new pistons, cam and such, but I may go ahead and put that on too.

I will probably still have to change the jets and maybe the air jets. We shall see. I'm shooting for an ever so slightly lean mix, preferably flat across the power band. It's not horse power I'm after though, it's toque. I want the biggest torque number I can squeeze out.

I know it's kind of pointless doing this to a motor I know needs a new top end. But it's nice to have a base line, and then see what every mod does. At only $40 a pop for the dyno, and my time spent on modifying parts, I'm not really hurting anything.




 
And so the fun begins, keep up the work and keep us informed, I love threads like this, there is paperwork behind the theory.
 
You can't jet out the super rich area from 5 to 7500rpm although it isn't as bad as mine was with 115 secondary main jets
Point springs go weak if overheated
Easy enough to do if ignition is left on and points are closed, usually burns out coil which gets changed, but, points are left alone as bike starts same as before
 
I was thinking of going up one size on the main jet, then shimming, sourcing or modifying the needle to get the 5k-7.5k area correct. I know it's going to take some fiddling. That is assuming that my porting job gets the top end closer to the right mix. So I'll dyno again on Monday after I install my ported carbs.
It also looks like I'm lean under 3500 rpm, so I'm looking at larger slow jet and/or smaller air bypass. It could be that the computer just doesn't calculate a/f below that engine speed.
I'm only going to change one thing at a time. I'm hoping Barton will give me a bulk rate deal since it looks like I'm going to be on his dyno a lot.
That's good to know about the point springs. I know I have some old sets around here. I think I'm going to try to double spring them and see what that gets me.
 
Everyone thinks the pods supply extra air and lean out the mix....Most pods have less surface area then the stock.

You polished the carbs, do you think a larger, less restrictive air filter might help with the richness? I found the UNI's 4 inch foam seem to have little effect on restricting my CB360...

On the other hand, that is some nice HP at the rear wheel. That's as good as some of the 400F I've seen.

Pamco Pete is coming out with an electronic ignition with electronic advance. that should end the point bounce for ever.... Hopefully this summer...
 
Needles need to be lower, the opposite of shimming
The mid range richness is because of transition from primary to secondary main jets with 3 jet carbs
 
Got them on. first impression is lacking. I don't think I made any big improvements.

I know I need a larger slow jet, my air screw is turned out 4.5 times! But I'm having trouble finding the right parts. Jet R Us doesn't have the size listed. I measure mine @ 21mm L x 4mm widest and 2mm tip. they have nothing close. I can't find air jets either. But I did find a very good selection of needles, so I should be able to find one that will work the best after i get the jets dialed in. I'll keep searching. I know someone has jets for this. If nothing else I'll send Jets R Us my spare jets and tell them to match them up and give a couple of each up size.

But first I have to make another trip to the dyno before I mess with anything else. I just wanted to have the jets on hand so I could get this worked out efficiently.

I also weighed the bike today to get an estimate of power to weight ratio. It tips the scale at a feathery 275 pounds. After I get off my ass and lace up the alloy rims and trim some needless wires and brackets, I should be closer to 250 hopefully.
 
You could also try one run without any filters and watch for two things - slide position and the A:F ratio.
 
I've never needed to change slow or primary main jets, there isn't enough restriction with stock air filters to need up jetting when fitting 'pods'
Even a 42 pilot (slow jet) is noticeable rich at idle (stock 38)
I've also tried 45 pilot , 70 and 75 primary main up to 115 secondary main and various combinations but found the stock 38pilot, 68 primary, 107~120 secondary works for just about everyone
 
Perhaps you can help me.
What is the jet in red? that one is 35. I have a 38 that replaces both the jet and the closed off screw in cap. I don't know if it will work. The cap has no hole.
I think the slow jet is in green right? The screw in part has 68 on it.
 
I doubt it had any effect at all on air flow, but I also shaped the blocks for the spring loaded flap on the choke plates. I figureed it wouldn't hurt and may keep the air flowing more smoothly.
 
Green one is primary main, should be 68, the other part is discharge/emulsion tube, forget what Honda call it?
Red one is slow/pilot jet, 35 or 38, I use 38 with K&N
There is a cross drilling in carb body to supply it with fuel from primary main which is why it had a solid plug
Almost no-one actually understands these carbs which is why I started doing 'mods for pods'
 
do you have a part number for the pilot jet? Please.

Also, how does one remove the air jets? Can the press in jets be replaced with screw in type?

Thanks in advance. Surely you know by now how much your help and knowledge is appreciated here.
 
Sorry, don't have any part numbers, been using K&L kits which come with a 38 or re-using the originals
I did remove press in jets in one set of carbs and tapped 4.5mm but then put the carbs 'safe' before I made air correctors so they are not finished or tested
 
Well a couple hours of searching the Net and I have come up with nothing on how to remove them, or replacing them. I have found screw in air jets.

In my searches, I learned that most people just drill the air jets regardless of what the vehicle is. So i ordered some jewelers micro drill bits. I wouldn't drill a fuel jet, but I figure an air jet would be fine.

I'm surprised that the secondary main air jet has such a tiny orifice. It seems the larger the fuel jet, the smaller the corresponding air jet. BTW, I identified the air jets by following the passage visually on the outside of the carb body. There doesn't seem to be enough room for any trickery.
 
On some Keihin carbs it is possible to remove pressed in air jets with a suitable EZ out.
 
I'm a little disappointed. All of my careful porting work on the carbs netted me a negative. I went from 28.2 to a wimpy 26.8. torque went from 18.3 to 17.5.

So, I've got more work to do. I had the thought to use some cb350 carbs I have. When tuned right I should gain some more torque, which is what I'm after anyway. I know that will involve all kinds of BS with throttle cables, intake boots and such. It's just a thought.

So tomorrow I'm going to swap out to a one size smaller primary main jet I found yesterday in my shop. I'm also going to order a new needle and needle jet. They are probably worn anyway. So I figure it can't hurt.

One main issue is my floating points. I can't afford the $400 for the Bore Tech. A buddy was telling me about Pamco. I don't think they make one for the 360. It's $200. So I guess for now, I'm going to order a new points set. I can't find my old set I know is floating around in the shop somewhere. I was thinking of using a double spring to control float. But I think I should see what a new set does first.

More carb work in my future. yay.

 
Points springs go weak if ignition is left on and points are closed, you can also get problems with coil overheating
They are designed to float around 10,500rpm, points cam is designed to cause 'bounce'
I found a 40 pilot too big, wouldn't go smaller than 35
Red line was only 9,300rpm, you can see the power drop off.
Fuel air readout shows major rich problem in transition from primary to secondary main jet, needle needs to be lowered so secondary starts discharging fuel later.
I bought a cutter to machine needle seat in slide but haven't tried it out yet
This is what I got on my 378 motor with 110 secondary main jets, lost a chunk of power by being too rich
 
I used a second spring in a CB72 race bike for years and it cured the problem of points bounce - I just remembered that I had the points cam reground but that shouldn't be necessary.

You could probably use a GL1000 DYNA in place of points and keep the mechanical A/R unit. Or try a Pertronix but don't be too upset if it doesn't last forever.

PJ that A:F curve looks really nice. At 3500 it goes rich and slowly comes back suggesting that a 0.1mm smaller primary air jet and half sized smaller primary main might clean that up. But you have worked with those carbs and I haven't so I'm just speculating.

When does the slide start to lift and when is it fully lifted? A slight change in the rate of slide lift might make a difference there if that;'s appropriate.
 
Dyna off Goldwing needs bit of work to fit on 360, Brendon has gone back to points at present, not sure if one side is faulty although it did run like a 'raped ape' last Saturday (when it wasn't running on 1 cyl)
That was rich enough to loose power, clutch slip prevented an accurate HP number (peaked at 40 point something, pretty good for a stock cam motor 8) )
I wasn't watching slide but I assume it lifted a little early with the 378cc, you can see transition around 3,500, I think it lifted fully around 7k, that's when it goes rich again
 
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