Shake the Box CL360/378 - The Hedgehog - Done

[ridesolo]

It starts and runs, and I even rode it around the block. It still runs like crap, though not as bad as in that first start vid above. Tomorrow I'll take the air cleaners off, loosen the clamps for the intake boots, and make sure the carbs are seated all the way. Hopefully that takes care of it because once that's done my abilities will be pretty well tapped out, I can take 'em apart and put 'em together, but knowing what to do to make 'em run right isn't really in my experience kit. The carbs were done by CrazyPJ a few years ago and were kept in a box until being bolted on several months ago so there shouldn't be any problems w/ them. I believe he tests them before sending them out anyway so I really don't suspect the carbs themselves.

I wasn't able to get much speed on so I couldn't test much, but the brakes are fantastic and the riding position, once I get my hip joints to quit rebelling, isn't uncomfortable, awkward, or scrunched up. In my opinion moving the side stand forward was a good thing; it works well w/ this riding opsition. The shifter and rear brake are easy to operate as are the hand controls. The front suspension feels pretty good but I thought the rear was pretty stiff. Perhaps lightening up the preload might help that some? I'm very anxious to see how it handles at higher speeds though everything felt fine and not twitchy at the lower speeds, not much above 30mph, I was traveling.

I believe I got the wheel diameter setting for the speedometer pretty good, the tach works but I think it may be showing low. It doesn't show numbers, just bars, so it's hard to be sure. I read recommendations that a resister be added in line to take out "noise" and I used the recommended ohm rating so I may take it out of the line to see if the reading goes up some.

Right now I'm having to put the battery tender on it but I'm pretty sure that when it's running like it should be it'll stay charged up from riding and not having to use the starter so much.

It seemed much louder than I remembered so I took out the baffles and discovered that virtually all of the fiberglass packing was gone so I got new; that should get things back to "sorta' loud but not outright obnoxious" like it was before.

 

[pidjones]

Like a new toy again! Congrats! BTW, good luck getting the packing to stay in the baffle. My GL1000 eats it in 5 miles. Thinking about trying SS pot scrubber pads.

 

[ridesolo]

My Father's Day gift to myself was getting the Hedgehog running. Third time's the charm for taking off the carbs and blindly fiddling. Thanx to @irk miller (and the others who chimed in) for the carb advice and giving things a careful polish inside seemed to do the trick. Right carb seemed to be the biggest offender. (Still not sure why that jet was completely unscrewed and laying in the bottom of the float bowl!)

I'm not sure about my wheel diameter setting for the speedometer, it seems a bit slow. I've checked and rechecked my math, though and the diameter should be 1956 which is where it's set. I'll take it out tomorrow w/ the tank bag on, put my phone in the map pocket, and check the speed w/ GPS.

The tach is also off, low, but there's a resistor in the line because of an internet posting I saw about taking the "noise" out of the line on this DanMoto unit, perhaps it isn't needed for this application. I can easily unplug the resistor and see if that sets things to right.

My seat still isn't ready so I'm using a makeshift that does the trick. The permanent seat will look better but probably won't be a whole lot more comfortable!

My first real riding impressions are good. It's steady and solid and I couldn't detect any tendency to head-shake at de-acceleration. It leaned over easily and didn't feel twitchy or touchy. The brakes are fantastic which shouldn't be surprising as they are largely 500 Ninja and this is a lighter machine. The aftermarket front MC feels like a perfect match for the Ninja front caliper and the rear R-1 MC works well w/the Ninja rear caliper. The inexpensive ChinaBay aluminum reservoirs look great and are also up to the job. My ChinaBay bar-end mirrors are better than I expected. I can actually see behind me with them. I'm not sure why they are sorta' blue tinted, but I'll get use to it. The turn signals on them were a pain to get wired up but they now work and add a bunch of visibility in my opinion.

It isn't finished yet, but when I get the seat done and delivered and get some more tuning and shake-down into it it'll be there.

 

[irk miller]

Now we're talking.

 

[3DogNate]

New Speedo Pulse = (Original Speedo Pulse x Indicated Speed)/Acutal GPS Speed

Pretty sure that's your formula for nailing your speedo pulse rate.

 

[ridesolo]

Not sure how that would work. According to the Danmoto data it's the circumference of the wheel/tire in mm. I had it measured at 77" (X 25.4) or 1955.8mm, used 1956 because it's easy to remember; year I was born. Out of curiosity I'm going to measure the actual circumference w/ some string rather than calculating Diameter X 3.14159 just to try and get something really accurate.

 

[irk miller]

It always confuses me how these gauges get their number just from wheel circumference when they're reading a sensor on the brake rotor, which isn't a common number. The Trailtech does the same thing. What I've done on Trailtech bikes is get it close, then calibrate with GPS by raising or lowering the number until they match. I use a GPS app on my phone and mount with a Ram mount. I've also accidentally set it to km/h without realizing it, too.

 

[pidjones]

Not sure how that would work. According to the Danmoto data it's the circumference of the wheel/tire in mm. I had it measured at 77" (X 25.4) or 1955.8mm, used 1956 because it's easy to remember; year I was born. Out of curiosity I'm going to measure the actual circumference w/ some string rather than calculating Diameter X 3.14159 just to try and get something really accurate.

You could make a heavy chalk mark on the center tread of the tire, roll it forward (or backward so the rear doesm't erase it) untill it's marked the pavement twice, measure between. Irk, rotational velocity (from the magnet) x circumference at OD is speed no matter where the rotations are measured.

 

[irk miller]

Irk, rotational velocity (from the magnet) x circumference at OD is speed no matter where the rotations are measured.

The distance from the magnet x circumference OD is different depending on the bike. That is not a constant.

 

[pidjones]

The magnet is just counting laps/time to get rotational velocity.

 

[irk miller]

The magnet is just counting laps/time to get rotational velocity.

I get that. That is why the formula the manufacturer gives you is close, but not accurate. You have to adjust. A rotor with 88mm spacing is going to be different than one with 60mm spacing, even though both have 17" wheels. The outside of the wheel spins faster than the inside, so the spacing matters.

 

[ridesolo]

No, it doesn't. I went through that in my head as I was setting this up. I felt so stupid because it was confusing me, but bottom line is that the magnet is mounted in the rotor and it passes by the sensor once each revolution. If magnet and sensor are close to the axle or out near the tire it's still one revolution and if the wheel/tire is 8" dia or 20" dia it's still one revolution. So you tell it's little speedo brain that each revolution is XXXXmm and all that little brain does is rack up XXXXmm each time the sensor gets a blip from the passing magnet.

 

[ridesolo]

So... with that in mind I came up w/ a scheme to get the odometer to match the original that was on the bike. The original miles are:

And I made a "whirlygig" with 8 magnets stuck to it w/ epoxy.

Then I set the wheel diameter on the DanMoto to 9999mm, chucked the thing into a drill, and let 'er rip. Probably if I had set up some kind of jig to hold it all it would have worked, but it was not practical doing it by hand. While it was working I put in 14 miles, sometimes at land speed records! After 14 miles I decided it wasn't worth the effort to try and get it to 15,835.0 miles. Who knows, if I get bored...

 

[Hurco550]

Chuck that thing into your drill press and go to bed lol

Sent from my SM-S102DL using Tapatalk

 

[irk miller]

No, it doesn't.

The motion of an object is a combination of translation and rotation. A point on a wheel translates at a speed that equals the product of the speed at which the wheel is rotating and the distance from the speeding point to the center or axis of the wheel. The further a point is from the center, the faster it travels. Another way to describe it is to consider two runners on a track. They can maintain the same axis, but the runner in the outside lane will have to run faster then the runner on the inside lane to maintain the same axis.

Your speedometer's rudimentary computer reads that translation. If it didn't matter, than your gauge would read accurately from your initial input.

 

[pidjones]

1 RPM @ 2" radius is still 1 RPM @ 30" radius. The magnet is not measuring distance traveled, but measuring rotational velocity. One pulse per rotation. Mark a wheel at the brake rotor and tire along the same radial line and they pass at the same rate when spun. Traveling different speeds, but we are mearuring rotational velocity, not velocity of the outside of the tire. That rotational velocity X circumference of the tire = speed or vehicle velocity.

CC (circumference in mm) X RR (rotational velocity in RPM) = MM (vehicle velocity in mm/minute. Then convert to miles/hour.

The mechanical clocks do the same, but with gearing and spinning magnet to move the needle armature against a hair spring.

 

[irk miller]

1 RPM @ 2" radius is still 1 RPM @ 30" radius. The magnet is not measuring distance traveled, but measuring rotational velocity. One pulse per rotation. Mark a wheel at the brake rotor and tire along the same radial line and they pass at the same rate when spun. Traveling different speeds, but we are mearuring rotational velocity, not velocity of the outside of the tire. That rotational velocity X circumference of the tire = speed or vehicle velocity.

CC (circumference in mm) X RR (rotational velocity in RPM) = MM (vehicle velocity in mm/minute. Then convert to miles/hour.

The mechanical clocks do the same, but with gearing and spinning magnet to move the needle armature against a hair spring.

You can explain why I'm wrong, but explain why his gauge is way off when he inputs the proper number for wheel size. I also never said the sensor (the magnet is rotating and not measuring anything) is measuring distance traveled. The magnet spins faster at 88mm than it does at 60mm. My assumption is based on the concept of angular velocity. If that has nothing to do with it, then I am wrong. But, my knowledge of angular velocity is pretty clear.

 

[HerrDeacon]

I think you are both interpreting how the gauge calculates speed different. Irk is saying it reads how fast the magnet is spinning past the sensor where as pidjones is saying it just reads a revolution of the wheel. I have yet to set mine up but it was my understanding that they worked the way pidjones is stating in that the sensor just marks a revolution and you input the distance the bike travels in that revolution is by measuring the circumference of the wheel.

Maybe these gauges are setup to read wrong from the start just like the majority of modern bike speedos. My past three new bikes all read wrong. Regardless, if you have the ability to dial it in perfectly with a GPS like irk is doing that would be perfect.

 

[teazer]

I am not a designer of electronic speedos so I have zero knowledge on how they are designed to work, but seems to me the discussion here is whether they measure the speed at which a magnet passes the pickup or if they just count pulses. I would have guessed that they use one pulse per revolution but I like the ideas of angular velocity. On RPM counters, pulses per revolution are the way to go. Not sure about speedos though.

As to the accuracy aspect, there are several thoughts. One is that rolling diameter or circumference changes with temperature and speed. A cold tire with low pressure is smaller in effective diameter than one that is hot and running fast, so that creates a need for speed compensation. It will tend to under read at high speed and over read at low speed.

Then there's the accuracy or lack thereof in the instrument itself. Anyone know for sure how they are calibrated and how accurate they are from one to another.

Mine is 100% accurate when it recorded 262mph at the end of a slow quarter mike run, so I suspect that there are other factors such as RF noise that may come into play. My bike couldn't go that fast if you dropped from a plane at 15,000 feet.

I do like Irk's approach to using a GPS app to calibrate it and adjust the input as required.

 

[irk miller]

I'm certainly open to being wrong on this, and the marking the number of revolutions makes sense, but I wonder how the computer itself interprets the data. I build and run lots of kilns, and I tend to back up my computers during operation with what is called a cone. The cones are formulated to melt at specific temps and rates of heat. Most computers are not designed to factor rate of heat and only rely on reading the electric charge given off by the thermocouple and translating that into a temperature on the display. This method is great for managing the cycle and hitting checkpoints during a firing automatically, but it gets exponentially inaccurate as parts wear out. As such, I suspect these gauges have similar built in inaccuracies, since it would probably cost way more money to build them otherwise.