The 安いスリル CL360

UPDATE: New Parts


142.jpg



Here are some parts I picked up yesterday.
-- CB360 headlight bucket (some scuffs but not bad, also no better then current bucket)
-- CB360 headlight (works, not cracked, and trim ring is in excellent condition)
-- horn (looks neat and old and it works so why not use it?)
-- CL360 main exhaust heat shield (good shape other then light surface rust around mounting holes)
-- handlebars (brand new and I figured I'd run them upside down. It's a little shorter then the OEM bars)
-- grips (also new but not sure if I'll run them since they're so modern looking)
-- CB350 tune up kit (points and plugs are the same as the CB/CJ/CL360 but I'm not sure if the condensor will work)

I got all that for whopping $10 so even if I don't use some of it I figure I still got a pretty damn good deal. ;D
 
Here is a picture of a couple of the parts I mentioned. Once the light hits them they turn that gray color. :mad:

P6290120.jpg


My dad convinced me to just leave them as is and get them on the car so it's closer to being done. I very reluctantly agreed. :-\
 
I found out the CJ360 never came with an electric start. Unfortunately to get a factory looking electric start delete I'll need to get the lower case of the CJ360 motor or just swap the whole thing in. Sucks that it isn't just a cover that bolts to it. The odd thing is that the lip or tab or whatever is still sticking out the front of the motor which seems pretty stupid to me since it probably would have cost just as much to redo the molds without that extra bit.

As far as I know these are the main differences between the three models...
-- CB: disk front end
-- CL: scrambler pipes
-- CJ: no electric start
A combination of the 3 would make for the ultimate period correct 360. ;)
 
Since I work third shift and stay up all night on days I don't work, I need to stay quiet but I also really need to keep working on my projects. So... over the last week or two I've spent an hour or two a day teaching myself how to use GIMP so I can do my first photochop. Here is what I have in my head so far.



Before:
81.jpg


After:
143photochop1.jpg


I can't seem to figure out how to make the new tank color look like it's gloss, but it's the same color as the gauge faces only it will have more of a shine in real life. I'm also thinking about redoing the black stripe on the tank as a satin black instead of a gloss. That chrome strip at the bottom of the tank will likely be removed on the real thing since I don't have one for the other side and the one in the pic is partially broke off.

The handlebars are still the stock ones but I made them black and removed the cross bar to make them look a little more like the bars I just picked up.

The headlight isn't there because it would have been a lot of work for me to chop it into the photo and get it tucked behind the fork tube but ahead of the wiring.

The exhaust will end up being black wrap so there won't be any shine to it on the actual bike but the pic will do for now.

I also removed some of the little things like the fender mount on the lower fork tubes and the steering lock on the lower triple.

I plan on making the background of the HONDA on each side of the motor black but I didn't do it in the chop because the picture was too fuzzy when I zoomed in enough to do the detailed work.

I'm still working on chopping in the the rear sets but I can't seem to get it to look right.



Those black spokes and chrome hoops really make it pop. That's probably my favorite part of the chop. IMO, the bike has a nice look to it with just the right balance of dark and light colors. Give me your thoughts/comments, good or bad. Should I change something?
 
just caught up wit your thread! great job man, you gave me some good info in here too!

just keep your chin up and go strong! you'll do great!
 
Ok, here is a long awaited update.

The photochop I did months ago is no longer what it's going to look like. The colors, tank, and seat in the photo will be the same but everything else will different. Here's the photo again.
143photochop1.jpg



The two big changes I'm making is to the front and rear suspension.

REAR SUSPENSION:
The rear will lose the twin rear shocks and I'll be using a CBR900RR rear shock and some custom linkage to make it work. This swap will require me to completely change the back half of the frame. Here is a screen shot of my current design. Not sure why the colors got super dull when I saved the image but oh well. The blue is the stock frame and back of the motor. The purple is the 900rr shock and the rear mount will likely get moved forward because I used the free length to put it in the drawing. The red is where the bike would sit when parked. The green is at 5" of wheel travel. The white is at max wheel sag of 2.6".

With how I've got it designed the shock will never bottom out. The bottom rocker will hit a stock frame brace with 0.08" of stroke left in the shock. At 2.6" of sag the bottom rocker will contact the motor and prevent any further movement. However, I plan to make a steel stop to prevent the rocker from touching the motor so there will actually be 1.7" of wheel sag before it hits the stop.

If anyone has any input of what kind of bearings and hardware size I should use for the rockers please let me know. Bearing sizes in the drawing are just what I thought looked right from pics on the web.

cl360rearsuspension.jpg



FRONT SUSPENSION:
Up front I'm looking into using something like EX500 or F2 forks and a hodge podge of braking components so I can get a single disk and still retain the 18" 36 spoke stock wheel. I already figured out how to do the EX500 front end swap but I'm hesitant with it because I don't want to use the EX's goofy top triple and handle bars. If anyone knows of an upper triple that will swap over easily so I can use dirt bars without it looking funny I'm all ears.

EXHAUST:
Rather then cutting up my CL360 pipes I'm starting to think I should make the pipes I want from scratch. I figure selling the CL pipes would pay for the new rear suspension and the new exhaust.

HEADLIGHT:
I got a headlight for free some TXspeedDemon a while ago that I plan on putting on the 360. However, since I'm thinking of doing a front end swap the brackets I made to mount it are now useless and I can't make the new mounts until I figure out what I'm doing for the front end.

ENGINE:
I purchased Ratfighters 360 motor so that will be going in once I can get it soda blasted and the frame mods are done. Not sure if I want to clear the bare aluminum after blasting or if I should spray it with some high temp silver. Opinions?

ELECTRICS:
I've decided the starter will be removed and I'll be installing a block off plate to close off the motor. With putting the rear shock were I plan I will have to find a new home for the electronics. I don't know if I'll have room in the tank tunnel for everything so I may end up using a capacitor to save weight. I've also been looking into making some more modern gauges work on the bike.


So there's the update. The build hasn't died it's just taken a new path to completion.
 
CK 187 said:
Jiggy has the front end off his hawk, because i believe he is using an F4i front end

Intriguing! From what I'm finding...
-- 41mm tubes
-- 130mm of travel to match the back
-- single 316mm disk with a 6 bolt mounting pattern
-- good looking triples that look like they can easily be drilled
-- 20mm axle

Some questions that hopefully someone can answer...
-- How long are the forks?
-- What is the diameter of the rotor bolt circle? I just checked it by scaling it from a pic on the web and it looks to be 6x~168.5mm (6x~6.633"). Can anyone confirm this? Ben, is that even close to what the rivets are on the 360 rotor?
-- Anyone have some ideas on how to make the 20mm axle work when a 15mm axle goes through the CB360 hub? The CB360 (disk) bearings aren't the same as my CL360 (drum) bearings and I don't have a CB hub yet so I can't take measurements of my own. I think a simple bearing swap won't work because the bearing will end up being too thin. Maybe use needle bearings instead of ball bearings? hmm...
-- Anyone know what the offset of the triples are so I can run the numbers and figure out what kind of geometry I'll end up with?

I'll have to send him a pm and see if they are for sale, what's included, and how much he wants. If everything works out maybe I can get it from him (or you?) at the vintage bike races in ~week so shipping wouldn't be needed? High-five to you!
 
I just did the same scaling thing for the 360 rotor and the bolt pattern seems to be...
bolts = 4x~79.68mm (4x~3.137")
rivets = 6x~158.25mm (6x~6.230")

Dimensions of the Hawk rotor I got from scaling a picture...
bolts = 6x~168.5mm (6x~6.633")

I'd say the tolerance for those dimensions is +/- 0.25" because none of the pictures I found were a perfect straight on shot. With that said, there is a chance the Hawk rotor would bolt to the CB360 rotor after the stock rivets are removed. If it really will bolt straight up my only real concern would be wheel bearing and axle sizes.


Just so the whole bolt/rivet thing makes sense for people here is a picture of a stock CB360 front rotor.
LL115.JPG
 
According to the shop manual the CL360 hub I have uses bearing #6302 and the CB360 hub I need uses bearing #6302U. Am I right in assuming the "U" describes the type of seal? From some searching they seem to be 15x42x13 (inner/outer/width). I also found that the Hawk uses 20x42x12 bearings. If these numbers are correct it should be pretty easy to make the axle fit. :D


Did some more research and found that the following bikes have 316mm OD front disks, a 144mm ID, 6mm bolt holes, and a 6x166mm rotor bolt pattern

Honda NT650 Hawk GT
Honda NTV650
Honda CB750 Nighthawk 91-03
Honda VF750C Magna 94-03
Honda ST1100 90-02
Honda VT1100 C 92-94
Honda VT1100 C2
Honda VT1100 C3
Triumph Adventurer 900
Triumph Legend TT
Triumph Thunderbird 900

If the rivet spacing of the CB360 rotor is a little off from 166mm I may have to get a Nighthawk rotor and redrill it to fit the CB hub. I say Nighthawk because this rotor would be easier to redill then the Hawk rotor.

Hawk rotor:
6podbrake004.jpg



Nighthawk rotor:
253.jpg



After looking at the Nighthawk rotor some more I think I may have to get one of those rotors instead anyway. To me it seems to have a more edgy look compared to the rounded Hawk rotor. I think it would fit the upgraded older look I'm sort of shooting for with the bike. Now to find out for sure what the CB360 rotors bolt and rivet spacing is.



EDIT:
Jiggy says the forks and triples from his Hawk are for sale. Now to work out a price and place. Then I just have to get a caliper, rotor, master cylinder, and lines. I think I may have a plan for some of that as well. :D
 
Nobody on any of the Hawk forums I joined has gotten back to me with some of the measurements I asked for. They all just keep saying these forks are complete crap and that I should go with the F3/4 forks even after explaining my reasons for wanting the Hawk forks. So I got the measurements the same way I got the rotor info. Scaling! Turns out the Hawk forks are ~30" from axle center line to the top of the forks. My stock CL360 forks are 27". Anyone have some ideas for shortening the forks 3"? This length issue is the only thing preventing this front end from being a perfect fit for what I want. Do you think getting springs from a dirt bike and cutting them shorter would work? (cutting springs shorter makes them stiffer)
 
Major doh moment on my part. I realize what you mean about the bottom is rising and the top is falling. I goofed with where I placed the end of the white line at the upper crank. With how I have it drawn that upper connection of the longest dog bone magically jumps to a new location as the suspension sags. That's what happens when you are doing the work at 2am when you can't sleep.

Here is a screenshot with some dimensions. The linkage mount on the swingarm is as far back as I'm comfortable going before it gets too close to the tire. Anyone know how much a typical motorcycle tire grows at speed?
360rearsuspension.jpg



I figured my "dog bones" would be something like the picture below but with either a piece of C channel welded to the end or a needle bearing pressed in depending on how I go about making things.
m5lp_0508_01_+php_rear_lower_control_arms+rear_control_arms.jpg

I considered making the links adjustable and using heim joints on the ends to avoid having to press needle bearings in but wondered how expensive that would start to get. I know many places I can get aluminum hex and round tube already threaded but wasn't sure if the aluminum would be strong enough under that kind of force and I wasn't sure where I can get steel like that. I know companies sell those threaded tube inserts that get welded in but those are expensive too.

I was thinking this morning that making one of the bellcranks adjustable by use of a heim joint would be a good way to fine tune how the suspension feels because I would basically end up with an adjustable spring rate, no?. The bottom bellcrank should be easy to make adjustable if I use a 1/2" heim joint like McMasterCarr #2458K161 for the pivot point on the right.


The reason I'm trying to keep everything to the right of the frame tubes (blue) is because I want to create the illusion of the back of the bike kind of floating there. I plan to put a piece of sheet metal along the bottom of the frame tubes to block everything off so there is no visible shock. The vertical dog bone will hopefully be partially hidden between the pod filters and the upper bellcrank will be above the pods/carbs and under the rear gas tank mount. With how I have it setup all anyone will see is the small horizontal dog bone and the back of the lower bell crank.

If you could help figure out a better way to do the linkage I'm all ears.
 
I was at the Iola car swap meet a week or so ago and ended up buying more motorcycle parts then car parts. One such part is the front wheel from an XS650. Reason I was looking for this hub is because it uses 36 spokes so all I have to do now is get some new spokes and lace it to my current front rim since the rotor bolt pattern is the same as many other bikes I'm able to use a larger floating rotor. In fact, by popping off a cover from one side of the hub I have the option to use two rotors. ;D

One of the bikes that share the same rotor bolt pattern as the XS650 is a Ducati 916. Even though I don't have any forks in front of me yet to figure what kind of rotor offset I need, I decided to take a chance and purchase some front brake components anyway. I've got a front rotor, caliper, pads, and hardware on their way here. ;D

Jiggy isn't answering my pm's so I've pretty much given up on the thought of using the Hawk front end from him. There are two others I've been trying to make a deal with but they too seemed to have disappeared after a couple pm's. If I can't get a set I'll end up using a resprung F2 front end and either live with the extra caliper mounts on the one fork leg or I'll grind it off.

One of the other parts I got from Iola is the rear shock from a GL1500. I figured the goldwings are heavy bikes and I remembered my friends dad's GL1100 had a direct mount setup so the shock must have an awfully stiff spring on it. Turns out I was right. Something like 16.7kg/mm. Problem is, it's so long that it would cut into my seat area if I were to mount it as I originally planned. That and with Fathead not getting back to me about the 900rr shock I'm beginning to give up on the monoshock swap. Instead I might be able to get an FZR swingarm from SabreV45 which I'll probably weld some mounts on to continue with the dual shocks for now.

I'll get pics of stuff when the braking components arrive sometime next week.
 
So guess what showed up this afternoon? The brake components from the 916! A 320mm rotor and a 4 piston caliper. :D


Here I've got it bolted up to the 19" xs650 wheel. I still have to order the spokes so I can get it laced up to the 18" rim. Also, I may be able to ditch the stock chromed steel rims on the 360 in favor of some 18"x2.5" aluminum wheels. They are the rear wheels from the KTM so assuming my deal for the 17"x3.5" & 17"x5" rims doesn't fall through I may be able to run it's stock size rear wheel on the front and back of the 360. What do you think about that?
148.jpg



The caliper doesn't quite clear the spokes of the stock xs wheel. I slipped some washers between the rotor and hub to space it out an extra 1/4" but it still needs another 1/8" to clear the spokes. I don't think I'll have this issue with the hub laced to an 18" wheel since the angle of the spokes will change. Anyone know how much the spokes will flex under normal driving conditions?
149.jpg



With the 1/4" spacing the outer face of the rotor is flush with the face of the hub. I'm hoping the spoke angle in the 18" rim will give enough clearance because I wouldn't feel to comfortable letting it stick out further.
150.jpg




I still need a master cylinder and brake lines in order to finish the brake upgrade. I did some math before everything showed up based on dimensions I got online and it's looking like I'll need a 1/2" master cylinder. I've been doing a lot of thinking and searching and I think the rear master cylinder from a GSXR600 is what I'm after. I like that it's shorter because the outlet is on the side instead of the end so it's perfect for what I want. Does anyone know how long its stroke is? Gotta find out if it will be able to move the fluid needed for the caliper. Anyone have one or something similar for sale? Here is a picture of one I'm looking for.
DSC03188.jpg



Once the F2 forks show up I can do a test fit of everything and verify bearing dimensions and get those ordered. I'll also be able to measure for brake lines and decide how I'm going to do the bars.
 
Know of anyone that sells black spokes? I can only find places selling stainless, plain steel, and galvanized spokes.
 
I got another present in the mail today. The F2 front end I purchased arrived. ;D


Here's the comparison between the stock CL360 front end (right) and the F2 front end with the XS650 front wheel (left). Do you think it would be easier to swap stems or make a spacer to put between the upper triple and frame neck?
151.jpg



Here's a loose fitment in the frame. If you do the math with the wood you'll realize there will be a ton of ground clearance. At first I was worried about this looking funny but being as tall as I am I'm starting to like the idea. Hopefully it won't look like I'm sitting on a couch at a stop light now.
152.jpg

154.jpg



Looks like I'll have to cut off the stock steering stop and weld on some new ones because right now I can't turn at all. I was surprised to see that the stock steering nut and washer were a perfect fit with the F2. Pretty convenient since the F2 front end didn't come with that.
153.jpg



The F2 calipers have an 80mm bolt spacing and the Brembo caliper I'm using has a 40mm bolt spacing. With the 320mm rotor I can use the same top caliper mount and the lower mount on the Brembo caliper lies right in the middle of the stock mounts. With the 1/4" spacer as used a couple posts above, there is an 1/8" gap between the caliper and fork. Think an 1/8" thick 3/4" wide piece of steel will be strong enough to support the lower caliper mount? I haven't done a stress analysis yet but I don't think it will be too bad. At least I hope not. Thoughts?
155.jpg

156.jpg



Anyone have some 41mm clipons they aren't using? I want to figure out if I should shorten the forks and drill the triple to use the dirt bars or if clipons are going to be comfortable enough and look ok. I didn't check the stock speedo cable with the F2 speedo drive so I may need the F2 speedo cable as well. Tomorrow I'll play around with the headlight and gauge placement.


I'm hoping I'll have the FZR swignarm sometime next week. Once that is fitted I can order all the bearings and start working on the frame.
 
Here is a list of rotors for the XS wheels. Scroll about half way down and you'll find it.
http://www.650rider.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=42928


Decided to pop off the plastic cover on one side of the wheel to see if there was more room to space out the rotor and sure enough there is. I can move the rotor out 1/8" more so now clearance with the spokes and caliper isn't an issue but I still need to figure out that bracket. I did the stress analysis and the 1/8" bar isn't gonna make the cut. I'll be needed something like a 3/8" thick bracket.
158.jpg



I also took the front end back off the bike and tried reusing the stock 360 bearings to see what would happen. As it turns out the F2 and 360 use the same exact bearings so after cleaning things up I reassembled it and tightened everything down. Perfect! The F2 is a direct bolt on to the 360. The upper bearing dust cover needs a little bit of massaging so there is a smaller gap but otherwise it's perfect. No stem swaps or spacers needed after all. 8)


Grabbed the gauges and headlight next. I like the look of this head light a lot more then the stock one but I think it looks too small next to those gauges. I'm also not a fan of how high the forks stick through the triple. Because everything is only held in place with electrical tape the locations of stuff is only a general idea. The head light for instance will be moved up and forward ~3/4".
159.jpg

160.jpg

161.jpg



Once I get the front wheel bearings I'll be able put a proper axle through things and figure out what kind of spacers I need to get the front wheel centered and the speedo drive lined up. Hopefully I can stop by the local bearing place and get those to make it a roller again.

I also did some checking and found that the stock speedo cable won't work so I'll need to get an F2 cable. Can anyone explain how a speedo drive works? The F2 part doesn't seem to fit quite right with the XS wheel.

Since I might use the FZR swingarm and different shocks to raise the back of the bike I don't know what exactly the trail will end up being but right now it's at 5". That seems like a lot doesn't it? Anyone know of some 41mm triples that will swap over but have a larger offset to bring the trail back in spec?
 
I posted this in the WTB section too but figured it would fit here as well. I need a spacer machined.

The stock bearing spacer that goes between the wheel bearings in my front wheel has too small of an ID to fit over the larger axle I'm using. I considered having the stock part opened up a bit but the inner race of the bearings has a fillet that the spacer would ride on if it were machined instead of the actual face of the inner race.

I need it to have a...
20mm ID (axle diameter)
3.0-3.4mm wall thickness
68.5mm long

The ring that you see in the picture below is used to help keep the spacer centered so it's easier to slide the axle through. It has a 35mm OD, and the face is 38mm from the right side of the spacer in the pic. Since it would probably cost a lot more to have that machined as part of the spacer I can tack that into place if you can machine it for me. I figure a 2mm thickness for ease of welding. Material of choice would be either steel or stainless. Whatever you have lying around.

Here is a picture of how things look with the spacer in the caliper, the old bearing on the left, and the new bearing on the right.

162.jpg



I'll be needing wheel spacers and a caliper bracket made too but need this done first so I can measure for those. I'm hoping this won't take more then a week to make since I want to get the bike mostly together before school starts again but I understand time is money. Let me know how much this will cost and a time frame of when you expect to be able to get to it.





That should bring this thread up to date with my other thread now. I'll probably start selling some of the stock parts soon so I'll be reminded more to update this thread.
 
That rear suspension looks massively over complicated--though maybe it's the 2D CAD program you're using. Am I right in thinking you're using 2(!) rockers?

Your pushrods--what you're calling dog bones--would be better done with swaged aluminum tube with R-L thread rod ends. That way you can raise and lower it.

--Chris
 
Yeah you saw that right. I don't plan on doing that anymore because I don't think I'll have the time. I'm hoping I can make some sportster shocks work.
 
Back
Top Bottom