I got a barn fresh 1980 Honda CM200t in complete non-running condition with a title for free. It's not getting any spark. I checked the system and everything seems ok up until the regulator/rectfier unit. Apparently these are the only year for a 6v combined unit. I have verified I am getting power in(red wire) but nothing back out(black). I made a jumper wire with direct 6v power everything works and there is spark. As far as I can see the stator pn's are the same. Am I correct in thinking all I need to make the conversion is a 12v coil, regulator/rectifier unit, battery, and lighting? Has anyone else done a similar conversion?
1980 CM200T 6V to 12V conversion
- Thread starter cb.radley
- Start date
For a 12V conversion, you need to swap out everything electrical except the alternator, wiring, switches and rectifier (if not a combined R/R unit). The coils, lights, battery, and regulator are usually what's left.
Also, I'm not intimately familiar with the wiring on a CM200, but black is usually +12V (switched with ignition), so that would be an input signal for the regulator. At least that's my guess. Likewise, the red or red/white wire is usually the output to the battery (unfused).
White, yellow, and pink wires usually indicate AC voltage from the stator.
Also, I'm not intimately familiar with the wiring on a CM200, but black is usually +12V (switched with ignition), so that would be an input signal for the regulator. At least that's my guess. Likewise, the red or red/white wire is usually the output to the battery (unfused).
White, yellow, and pink wires usually indicate AC voltage from the stator.
Bert Jan
Holy Modification Batman
First, why do you want a 12v system over 6v?
If i see it correctly, the unit you unplugged has 3 yellows, a red, a black and a green wire.
assuming this is correct, you have a 3phase regulator wich means your engine has a field coil. Such systems need current to produce current.
In short, buy a new fresh battery and ride the sucker.
If you're not completely sure what you're doing with electronics, dont touch it. Changes are you destroy the bike.
i copy/pasted the following from the trhead vonyinzer is having right above or below yours called 'typical wiring stupidity' or sum.... Read it if you want to continue with the conversion.
--
Ok, that sounds like a 3-phase, although i'm not familiar with the wiring colors on that bike.
3 white wires indicate 3 phase (as with hondas its 3 yellows).
3 phase systems have a field coil. The field coil is the small coil inside the spinning rotor. When you turn the ignition on, the coil gets power from the battery and by that, it magnetizes the rotor. When you kick the bike the rotor will spin and being magnetized/'loaded' by the field coil, generate current to the outer coil, the one with the 3 white wires. This system works as long as you have battery. No battery means no spark. *bumpstart with help will generate some juice but in general, you're fuuucked then...
You need to determine the function of the 2 wires, black and green. Assuming black is earth (as per provided diagram on page 1) green is the power to the coil. Your typical combined 3 phase rectifier/regulator has the following wires:
3 whites/yellow (unregulated AC from coils) up to 60v AC
ground/earth. (some housings are grounded, some not)
a (99% red) wire to the battery
the wire feeding the field coil (note that field coil has earth as well!!) these are the two wires coming out of the engine next to the 3 whites/yellows
Now, when the bike is running, the following happens.
The regulator gets or gives power from the battery (it basicly uses the red wire to measure the battery current and give or take current when needed) and gets power from the 3 AC engine coil wires.
The regulator measures the amount of power that goes in and out. It compensates the difference by adding or removing current from the field coil. When current is added to the fieldcoil, the generator will provide more current and vice versa.
Because the amount can only be compensated roughly, the precise amount is leveled and any axcess is then transformed into heat. hence the cooling fans on the unit.
Thats 1 function of the combined unit. Its called the regulating part.
The other function is rectifing. Making AC into DC. The unit uses diodes for that process.
AC current changes polarity half of the time and a diode as designed only to let the current in to the front door, not the back. Half of the flow is stopped and also transformed into heat.
As only half the current goes thru, the voltage is divided by 2, making 30v DC from the 60 AC @max rpm. The ecxess is then further transformed to heat by the regulator part.
as you have 3 AC wires coming in (all doing the same, therefor all the same color) you have 3 diodes in a 3phase unit.
Now for your question; As you can see, lots-o-magic happens in the unit. Therefor, its important that you use the unit for the purpose it was designed for. Any unit might work, but then again, it might not. Even the wire colors and brand might be the same, its never guaranteed to work if you use a unit wich was not intentionally designed for that bike. I've tried many many units/times, but only a handfull worked. Some worked ok, some 50/50, some did not. Thats because the unit was designed for the coils and amount of resistance and current provided by them on the bike. If the amounts generated by the coils differ from the bike it was designed for, it gives the wrong amount to the field coil and it will never be able to level out. The unit dies, boils the battery/melt wires or is workless.
As the units go for around 100 bucks, i'd say, pick the right one
YOU CAN NOT SLAP ANY UNIT ON ANY BIKE.
If i see it correctly, the unit you unplugged has 3 yellows, a red, a black and a green wire.
assuming this is correct, you have a 3phase regulator wich means your engine has a field coil. Such systems need current to produce current.
In short, buy a new fresh battery and ride the sucker.
If you're not completely sure what you're doing with electronics, dont touch it. Changes are you destroy the bike.
i copy/pasted the following from the trhead vonyinzer is having right above or below yours called 'typical wiring stupidity' or sum.... Read it if you want to continue with the conversion.
--
Ok, that sounds like a 3-phase, although i'm not familiar with the wiring colors on that bike.
3 white wires indicate 3 phase (as with hondas its 3 yellows).
3 phase systems have a field coil. The field coil is the small coil inside the spinning rotor. When you turn the ignition on, the coil gets power from the battery and by that, it magnetizes the rotor. When you kick the bike the rotor will spin and being magnetized/'loaded' by the field coil, generate current to the outer coil, the one with the 3 white wires. This system works as long as you have battery. No battery means no spark. *bumpstart with help will generate some juice but in general, you're fuuucked then...
You need to determine the function of the 2 wires, black and green. Assuming black is earth (as per provided diagram on page 1) green is the power to the coil. Your typical combined 3 phase rectifier/regulator has the following wires:
3 whites/yellow (unregulated AC from coils) up to 60v AC
ground/earth. (some housings are grounded, some not)
a (99% red) wire to the battery
the wire feeding the field coil (note that field coil has earth as well!!) these are the two wires coming out of the engine next to the 3 whites/yellows
Now, when the bike is running, the following happens.
The regulator gets or gives power from the battery (it basicly uses the red wire to measure the battery current and give or take current when needed) and gets power from the 3 AC engine coil wires.
The regulator measures the amount of power that goes in and out. It compensates the difference by adding or removing current from the field coil. When current is added to the fieldcoil, the generator will provide more current and vice versa.
Because the amount can only be compensated roughly, the precise amount is leveled and any axcess is then transformed into heat. hence the cooling fans on the unit.
Thats 1 function of the combined unit. Its called the regulating part.
The other function is rectifing. Making AC into DC. The unit uses diodes for that process.
AC current changes polarity half of the time and a diode as designed only to let the current in to the front door, not the back. Half of the flow is stopped and also transformed into heat.
As only half the current goes thru, the voltage is divided by 2, making 30v DC from the 60 AC @max rpm. The ecxess is then further transformed to heat by the regulator part.
as you have 3 AC wires coming in (all doing the same, therefor all the same color) you have 3 diodes in a 3phase unit.
Now for your question; As you can see, lots-o-magic happens in the unit. Therefor, its important that you use the unit for the purpose it was designed for. Any unit might work, but then again, it might not. Even the wire colors and brand might be the same, its never guaranteed to work if you use a unit wich was not intentionally designed for that bike. I've tried many many units/times, but only a handfull worked. Some worked ok, some 50/50, some did not. Thats because the unit was designed for the coils and amount of resistance and current provided by them on the bike. If the amounts generated by the coils differ from the bike it was designed for, it gives the wrong amount to the field coil and it will never be able to level out. The unit dies, boils the battery/melt wires or is workless.
As the units go for around 100 bucks, i'd say, pick the right one
YOU CAN NOT SLAP ANY UNIT ON ANY BIKE.
Believe me, I would be a happy man if all I had to do was get a new 6v battery. The regulator/rectifier unit is fried. The black wire should be getting power out, green is ground, and red is input power. Nothing comes out. I was told the PO replaced the battery with a 12v one and then tried to jump in with 12v. With a fresh 6v battery installed I get nothing. When I jumped that terminal with direct 6v, I get spark and lights. Is there any other way to test for a bad reg/rect unit or verify mine is bad?
The reason I want to convert to 12v is reliability, ease of use, and the overall better charging. This bike will be for my wife so I want it to not leave her stranded. Not to mention then I can use any of my spare parts from other bikes on it eg. lighting, switches, etc.
I ordered the Rick's motorsports combined 12v unit along with a replacement 12v coil. This unit was designed for these types of charging systems and small twins so I am confident it will work. I do understand your position of "why convert it" but I have had a hell of a time trying to find that oh-so-common 6v combined unit to replace my crispy one.
Thank you for the input!
The reason I want to convert to 12v is reliability, ease of use, and the overall better charging. This bike will be for my wife so I want it to not leave her stranded. Not to mention then I can use any of my spare parts from other bikes on it eg. lighting, switches, etc.
I ordered the Rick's motorsports combined 12v unit along with a replacement 12v coil. This unit was designed for these types of charging systems and small twins so I am confident it will work. I do understand your position of "why convert it" but I have had a hell of a time trying to find that oh-so-common 6v combined unit to replace my crispy one.
Thank you for the input!
Bert Jan
Holy Modification Batman
cb.radley said:
No. The unit dont work that way. Read my post (again) and get a new fresh 6v battery. You can not assume anything, nor just buy parts and hope they work, for the reasons i explained in my previous post.
Are you ASSUMING the reg/rec is fried or are you SURE? If the PO jumpstarted it with a 12v battery my guess is there would be more dead then just the regg/rec.
Do not put all that 12v stuff in until you're sure of things. Did you already put a fresh 6v battery in?
It seems you did not read my first post and that is fine with me, but dont come crying if you fry the shit out of it. If you want to do this kind of work on a bike (like converting it to 12v), you need to know the basics. period. you can not buy some parts, solder them up how it looks nice and hope for the best.
well... technically you could, but ahum........
I read your post. Did you read mine?
According to your post my field coil is lacking excitment therefore I am lacking spark. This is the black wire. That is the one I jumped directly from the battery and had success with getting spark. How would you test the unit to further verify that there is an issue? When you turn the bike over with 6v power something has to come back out of the reg/rect to excite the coil and that is not happening. That seems to me like verification?
Just for shits and giggles I will get another 6v batt tonight and report back. Keep in mind the factory converted these to 12v in 81, I just cannot find a donor bike.
cb.radley said:
According to your post my field coil is lacking excitment therefore I am lacking spark. This is the black wire. That is the one I jumped directly from the battery and had success with getting spark. How would you test the unit to further verify that there is an issue? When you turn the bike over with 6v power something has to come back out of the reg/rect to excite the coil and that is not happening. That seems to me like verification?
Just for shits and giggles I will get another 6v batt tonight and report back. Keep in mind the factory converted these to 12v in 81, I just cannot find a donor bike.
Bert Jan
Holy Modification Batman
cb.radley said:
Explain where you applied the jumper cables. To me, 6 volts from a battery is the same as 6 volts from any other jumpable device?
When the engine is not running, the rectifier/regulator does nothing. You might aswell detach it. It only works when engine is on.
You're telling that the bike does work with 6 volts jumpered, but not with the battery. That tells me the battery is dead.
The black cable is hot when ignition is on. Its switched from red (battery positive) to black at the main switch. If your battery does not appear to work but you're sure its juiced up, you have a problem between the positive battery terminal and the ignition lock, or from the ignition lock to the point you're measuring the black wire.
The current from the red battery wire needs to go to the ignition lock, and turn into a black wire going back into the system. No rectifier or regulator is even in the same zipcode at that time.
If you have your battery in the right way but no power on black wire when ignition is on, you problem is a wire or connection, not the rec/reg unit. period.
Though Bert will likely slam me for this. Evidently doing a straight switch with a cb/cl350 stator does the trick Aok along with a new rectifier ($5) and the bulb switchout. Only tricky aspect is soldering on the old plug as the 350 is square vs the 200's circular. Note this was for the cb100's and 125s but i believe (someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) the stator casing etc is the same. Definitely CONFIRM that before proceeding. Good luck! 6volts are a massive pain.
roachcliff1
New Member
Just wanted to let you know. I have a 1980 CM200T that is 6 volt. I thought I was having a rectifier issue also. But after reading this topic, and reexamining the manual. I discovered that as soon as I turn the key on, the red wire to the rectifier went from 6.5v to 5.5v, so there was a substantial voltage drop, which in turn was not enough to trigger the rectifier. I then made a jumper wire (with an inline fuse) to go from the positive side of the starter solenoid, to the red wire input of the rectifier (I cut the wire to the rectifier, and spliced in there). As soon as I did that I got the bike started, and started reading the voltage at the battery, it is now charging as it is supposed to. This bike looks completely stock, so I don't know why the voltage drops, but this fix was faster that trying to figure out the drop.
