1980 Honda CB650 - Rejetted/Pods - Sounds like a misfire when throttle is 3/4+ o

HazMatt

New Member
I recently added pod air filters to my 1980 Honda CB 650, with stock Keihin PD50 carbs.

I increased the jet size, and it took a good bit of trial and error to get it right. I'm running 42 slows and 102 mains (stock mains are 90). I had gone as high as 120 on the mains, but that was way too big and it was running extremely rich.

So for the most part the bike is feeling ok, but cruising at any speed feels a bit shaky - like the engine can't ever find a perfect rhythm. If I open up the throttle, it begins to make an intermittent 'poof' sound, and I'll feel the vibration in the bike... I don't think it's a misfire because it's not a pop - it almost sounds like it's getting choked out by air?

Also, I'm using regular unleaded fuel - could this be an issue?

I haven't done a valve adjustment, and I'm thinking that would be a good next step.

Any other advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks -

HazMatt
 
CAll me a pod hater...But with a 4 cylinder bike with pods, the center 2 cylinders have the air around them at a different pressure and temperature then the outer 2 carbs. So the jetting for the inner carb has to be different then the jetting for the outer carbs.

The stock airbox supplied the four carbs with the same pressure and temperature air, making for easier and consistent tuning.

The small pods used on the 4 cyl have really small surface areas. I believe they are more restrictive than a factory airbox.

Since you gone to pods, you will need to do plug chops and multiple testing to get the carbs jetted right. And the tune will be off on really cold days, or really hot days...
 
its easier to sync them because there are only 2 and the heat for each cylinder is mostly the same unlike the 4 or 3 cylinders that have different heat for the inner cylinders than the outter. but technically with velocity stacks you are letting in all kinds of junk into the motor and the wind etc will vary from side to side, I have them on my twin, but i really don't care about performance for that bike, i just want it to look cool, running it in the rain i think you can tell its sucking in water, not a rain bike either.
 
Mydlife is a pod hater ;)
I run k&n on a 400f and it runs like a top, and is more powerful than stock.
 
But they are harder to tune, and I don't have cv carbs.

Have you changes your needle position?
Do you have cv carbs?
What rpm range is it happening (cv)
What part of the throttle opening is it happening (mechanical slides)
 
Twins are a different issue.

However, velo stacks don't filter air, and screens restrict the flow you are trying to improve. Without screens, you risk the engine ingesting solid objects.

Unless you are racing on a track, velo stacks are not really a good idea for a street bike use for really riding.


Sent from planet Earth using mysterious electronic devices and Tapatalk
 
i have a cb550 with 650 cam and tuned head with cheap pods. runs like no tomorrow on total rev-range.
 
Bert Jan said:
i have a cb550 with 650 cam and tuned head with cheap pods. runs like no tomorrow on total rev-range.

You'd have slide carbs, not CV. That's the real difference here.
 
Bert Jan said:
i have a cb550 with 650 cam and tuned head with cheap pods. runs like no tomorrow on total rev-range.

Sometimes bad designs work anyway... How you ride, where your legs are, affect the pressure and temperature of the inlet air. The shape of your tank, how much clearance there is. Because yours works, doesn;t mean that it is a great idea and works for every one.

Also, you have other modifications, cam, head work. Maybe it would run even better with a well tuned intake, having a plenum from which the carbs draw equal pressure, equal temperature air. If you are using the tiny little emgo pods, tell me with a straight face that they can flow more air than a 4 inch long, 3 inch diameter UNI pod.

Those little emgo pods are crap as far as volume of air they can flow. they have very little surface area and even the tip of the cone is covered in chrome. they are strictly cosmetic items.


You think This:

emgo_air_filter_pod_35mm_honda_cb400f__55349.1355782616.1280.1280.jpg


Has more flow than this:

Uni_foam_air_filter_set_nu_4001_cb350_cl350_cb450_cl450_cb500_17210_310_000_17311_346_671_17211_375_000_144001_1__47409.1371582658.1280.1280.jpg



I have seen your work, I know you have a lot of sense. I would never recommend an Emgo Pod Filter to anyone who wanted real performance. A stock airbox and filter have far more air flow then those tiny little pods. But those pods do look nice....
 
hillsy said:
You'd have slide carbs, not CV. That's the real difference here.

Do slide carbs, such as the mikuni's) offer any performance gains other than being more tunable?
 
Manual slide carbs do not require the same steady airflow / pressure to raise the slides like on a CV carb. That's why CV carbs run best with an airbox. Especially a bank of 4 carbs.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone.

First of all - I am using emgos, so that's probably my first mistake.

Secondly - I had to extend the boots on the two inner carb intakes to clear the choke, otherwise the pods would have gotten in the way and it would not be able to move. So it sounds like I'm restricting even more air to the inner carbs, which actually require MORE air than the outer two - is that safe to say?

Would it be a good idea to try and use a pair of double-pods, which would at least even out the airflow between the left two carbs and the right two carbs? I think K&N makes those... the hard part would be finding a perfect fit for the distance between the two...

Should I just switch to K&Ns? Do they really allow more airflow than Emgos?

Lastly - the caughing / poofing sound I'm hearing happens almost at any throttle range - around 3,000+ rpms. It increases the wider I have the throttle open. Is this choking on gas then, if not enough air is being passed through?

Thanks again for all the answers. Appreciate it.
 
I have a '79 CB650, which has PD50 carbs, the same as your your '80. For whatever reason (cough, emissions, cough) these carbs are ridiculously sensitive to changes to their airbox. I went as far as ordering a NOS airbox cover from David Silver Spares in the UK to get the damn thing to run right.

Without that cover, I had to run 110 mains and shim the carb needles up two washer's worth. It ran pig rich, but at least it ran. With the cover, and a stock air filter, and a replacement plenum between the carbs and air filter box, and replacement rubbers between the head and carbs, it actually runs like a real bike on the stock jets with one washer's worth of needle shimming.

If you would really like to run pods on the thing, you would be best to find another rack of carbs for it. Scott84 had good luck running CBR600RR carbs on his 650, but he had some issues due to the CBR carbs mounting on an angle in their original application. Some folks have run Ninja 650 carbs with good results.
 
Also, I think the weird "poofs" you are getting are due to you running out of fuel. Try closing the choke 1/4 - 1/2 way and see if it runs better. You could try 110 main jets, but I'd strongly suggest the stock airbox based on my personal experience.
 
Yes, no, maybe.

Does a top fuel dragster motor make more horsepower per cubic inch then a Ford V6? Yes. Would you be able to drive the top fuel dragster engine in traffic?

If you are only concerned with TOP speed, and a horsepower number on a dynometer, then a slide carb definitely offers some performance gains.

A clean, well tuned carburetor always works well. You replace dirty, old CV carbs with a new Slide valve carb, assuming proper jetting and tuning, you can honestly say the carburetor made a big improvement.

BUT, always a but, A clean, well tuned Keihin CV carb offers a different performance standard. If slide valves are so good, why don't all bikes have slide valve carbs? Why go through the complication of Constant velocity, 3 fuel circuit carburetors? The CV carb offers better part throttle driveability, a measure of altitude compensation, when working properly, a smoother transition from idle, part throttle to full throttle. They call this driveability. The CV carb is pretty complicated, and when clean and adjusted properly, works well. It also keeps the fuel mixture more even (and leaner) for better MPG. For "Street Performance", the CV carb is a better device.

Slide valve carbs are 2 fuel circuit devices. they allow the flow of more air, the the mixture is preset by throttle position. The presets are adjustable with jet sizing and needle tapers. they are a simpler carb, but still a lot of work to tune well across the range. When you go full throttle on one, the bore opens fully. At idle, the velocity across the bore is reduced, and the fuel doesn't atomize well. this creates a little bog, so if you have slide carbs, you can modulate this by not opening the throttle fully from idle or keep the mixture a little over rich with needles, slow jets and such . A CV carb will maintain a higher velocity (constant in fact) across the jets, give better atomization, and smoother transition from idle to full throttle. The slides on a CV take some time to rise, and racers do not want that, so straight slides work well for that application.

Also, racers run more often at wide throttle positions. The Slide carbs then are tuned for good flow and atomization at those higher throttle positions. A CV carb is designed for more part throttle, driving in traffic , idle well, low throttle well, and transition between fuel circuits smoothly. However, when you alter an engine from stock, re-tuning a CV carb with 3 overlapping circuits is difficult. A slide valve carb is easier to tune because it has less fuel circuits and is simpler in construction.

It's like Racing slicks versus car tire...which offer better performance? On a 1/4 mile track, I want race slicks...better traction. But on a rain slick highway? which is better?

So performance is in the eye of the beholder. If you are looking for normal riding comfort, reasonable performance levels, then CV carbs do a great job.

If you are racing, then Slide Carbs do a great job.

I don't race. If I want to be the fastest bike on the street, my CB360t isn't the wheels I would pick for that. My stock CV carbs work they way they are supposed to, and the bike runs nicely, thank you. The small performance gain I would get with a slide valve just doesn't have any value. Getting 36 HP instead of 34 HP doesn;t really mean much, the bike still isn't fast. I am not looking to look like I race the bike on weekends either.

Now, if you modify the heads, increase the displacement, more radical cam lift, duration and timing, the stock CV carb won't work, and will be hard to tune. A slide carb is appropriate for those type of engines. The amount of tuning needed for a CV carb is a skill most here do not have. Slide valves are easier.

So ask yourself..Am I building the ultimate racing Bike? If I have the fastest CBxxxx in the world, does it prove I am a real man (or woman?)? Or are you building a bike that looks nice, runs well, is reliable, and gets me places?

Because if you look close at a lot of the really radical bikes, you will not see worn tires. Pay attention to how many bikes on this site look really great, and have lots of hours of sweat and effort, and still the engine isn't running. the bike isn't being ridden. If your goal is to make a work of art, go for the little pods. If your goal tis to have a ridable bike that looks nice, get the engine running well first. then make it pretty. My humble opinion anyway. you will get different and opposite opiniions here, that's the wonderful thing about these forums.
 
Would anyone suggest that I shim the needles on the two inside carbs, instead of increasing the main jet size?

Currently I'm running 102 mains on all carbs. If I were to raise the jet size for the middle two carbs, how big of a jump should I go with - 105s? 110s?

Thanks

Matt
 
HazMatt said:
Would anyone suggest that I shim the needles on the two inside carbs, instead of increasing the main jet size?

Currently I'm running 102 mains on all carbs. If I were to raise the jet size for the middle two carbs, how big of a jump should I go with - 105s? 110s?

In my opinion, you should shim and/or jet equally all four carbs. I think it's only in applications like three cylinder 2-strokes that you really need to jet the center cylinder differently. That opinion is worth what you paid for it ;D

Shimming the needles can help with idle, low, and midrange power, but remember that under full throttle the needle is far enough out that the jet size is the limiting factor, not the needle height. In my case, I shimmed the needle one washer's worth to help with starting and idle, as my bike can be an absolute bitch to start cold.

I ran 110s and two washers when I did not have the proper air box pieces, but I was also fighting bad coil packs, so I don't know how much of that was needed. 110s alone might have been enough.

Here's one guy's recipe - taken from http://www.hondacb650.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=722&start=15 :

my set up now is:
- Emgo pod filters
- Mac 4-1 exhaust
- 120 main jets
- 42 slow jets
- air mixture screws set to 2 turns out
 
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