74 CB450 - Hodge Podge

[Deli Sandwich]

Thought id start a thread documenting my build so far.
I started off with a stock cb450 back in Sept/Oct.
And this is where its at now. It's a good mix of parts from all different makes. American, Japanese and English.

Still have a bunch more to do, but so far:
-Euro Bars
-Amal grips
-Lowered front end,
-Triumph throttle housing
-English levers
-HD 7.5" headlamp with custom bracket.
-BSA short fork boots
-Front drum brake/wheel off cb350 18" to match rear 18"
-Coker Classic 4.00x18" and 4.50x18"
-Chopped down stock seat
-Custom tail light/lic plate and brackets.

At this point I have the front end to where I want it and now I got to work on the rear end.
I plan on chopping off the rear frame and welding in a shorter loop.
A new seat, shorter shocks, different exhaust and chopping off the old exhaust supports,
building a battery/electronics box and velocity stacks.

The only weird thing is right now I'm not riding with any filters, because nothing will fit with
the way the stock battery box is mounted. What do you 450 owners do besides running the stock airbox?

 

[Flugtechnik]

Nice!

I've got small pod filters on mine. They hit the battery box but work. They were on the bike when I got it so I don't know what brand or where they came from.

Here's a shot of my bike when I bought her.

 

[klx678]

Thought id start a thread documenting my build so far.
I started off with a stock cb450 back in Sept/Oct.
And this is where its at now. It's a good mix of parts from all different makes. American, Japanese and English.

Still have a bunch more to do, but so far:
-Euro Bars
-Amal grips
-Lowered front end,
-Triumph throttle housing
-English levers
-HD 7.5" headlamp with custom bracket.
-BSA short fork boots
-Front drum brake/wheel off cb350 18" to match rear 18"
-Coker Classic 4.00x18" and 4.50x18"
-Chopped down stock seat
-Custom tail light/lic plate and brackets.

At this point I have the front end to where I want it and now I got to work on the rear end.
I plan on chopping off the rear frame and welding in a shorter loop.
A new seat, shorter shocks, different exhaust and chopping off the old exhaust supports,
building a battery/electronics box and velocity stacks.

The only weird thing is right now I'm not riding with any filters, because nothing will fit with
the way the stock battery box is mounted. What do you 450 owners do besides running the stock airbox?

Looks like you're going more brat bike than street/tracker. Hope the air filter thing goes better in the future. You could try the foam flexible "sock" filters. That's what we used on our short track bikes back in the day. Mine had to bend around the backbone tube of my Bultaco.

 

[Deli Sandwich]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to "classify" the style as. I look at trackers and brats mostly, so it's sort of both.
I figure brat style bikes have more of a sloping tail section and a slightly higher bars. I'm just trying to keep everything even and low to the ground.

 

[Kev Nemo]

Where are you guys riding in that pic? Looks fun!

 

[klx678]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to "classify" the style as. I look at trackers and brats mostly, so it's sort of both.
I figure brat style bikes have more of a sloping tail section and a slightly higher bars. I'm just trying to keep everything even and low to the ground.

If you want to know if it is a tracker consider this - can it run a serious hot lap on a short track or half mile. Not if it can simply slide a bit or go around a dirt track, a moped or CT70 will do that, can it launch off a line and slide a corner as an actual race would require. For additional reference. I will say excessively shortened fork travel and stubby bars don't quite work on a track nor do excessively rear set right side pegs nor do excessively long swingarms help. That is sort of what makes a bike "track worthy".

What one calls it from there is simply opinion. But really in your case, you're making either a bobber or a brat, but welcome here since it's really enjoyable to see everything... besides you may end up making your 450 like this:

If you hang around here long...

Notice the two influences on those two pictures, the 70s-90s seat/tail versus the late 60s-early 70s individual seat and fender. The bike on the bottom has an old MT250 fuel tank and I think scrambler style pipes (probably not actual OEM double wall scrambler pipes though) as well, definitely do-able on a budget for the look. Put on the requisite lighting and you've got a street/tracker!

 

[Deli Sandwich]

thanks for the clarification and examples. I really like the second bike.
but this bike will never see a track, nor be ridden like if it was to be raced on a track.
it's being built purely based on the aesthetics of the bikes I like looking at.
So if it's a brat, so be it. Or if its a tracker, cool. I don't really care in the end. haha.
As long as it's fun to ride.

maybe a mod can move this to the bob and chop forum?

 

[Deli Sandwich]

Where are you guys riding in that pic? Looks fun!

we went out to borrego springs in so cal. rode out to the dessert, shot some guns, and camped in the dirt. good times.

 

[klx678]

thanks for the clarification and examples. I really like the second bike.
but this bike will never see a track, nor be ridden like if it was to be raced on a track.
it's being built purely based on the aesthetics of the bikes I like looking at.
So if it's a brat, so be it. Or if its a tracker, cool. I don't really care in the end. haha.
As long as it's fun to ride.

maybe a mod can move this to the bob and chop forum?

Shoot, just post it over there too. Copy the post w/ the picture and paste it in a new thread there.

My clarification isn't about actually doing it, it's the potential to do it. Like a cafe bike versus a custom with a kicked out front end but has a tail, flat bars, and a mini fairing. One could really be leaned into a corner like you mean it. The other really can't and they don't quite look the part either.

Maybe after you get tired of getting hammered by short suspension you can do the tracker set up. At least they have good suspension travel for some serious riding... unless you do the hard tail like my brother did - and regrets to an extent. They aren't that far apart, brat versus tracker. Bars, rear tail/fender, suspension and maybe peg position.

 

[kawasakifreak77]

Dude! I'm diggin' it & sounds like your headed in a good direction. BTW, I'd tour on that in a heartbeat!

 

[scm]

If you want to know if it is a tracker consider this - can it run a serious hot lap on a short track or half mile. Not if it can simply slide a bit or go around a dirt track, a moped or CT70 will do that, can it launch off a line and slide a corner as an actual race would require ...

Hi klx!

I appreciate your knowledge bout dirttrackers, but I think your definition is a bit too strict.
Imho, the term "tracker" as it is used here in the foum describes the style, not the purpose
of a bike. Have a look at the bikes in the caferacer section - many of them are anything but
fast and will probably not handle well either... But I wouldn't hesitate to call them caferacers,
just because of the style of their seats and tanks and handlebars...

So if a bike here is called tracker, to me it's because it's inspired by the look of a real dirttracker.

Similar with my XT. Some ten years ago, a friend told me about the classic roadracing events he
took part in and that SRs and XTs were permitted. So I worked a bit on my bike and joined in.
It performed better than I expected and I modified the bike to my demands. The result didn't look
much like a roadracer, to me it's more like an early 80s superbike too hot washed, but people always
said it's a tracker (because of the Storz seat of course).

Best regards
Sven

 

[klx678]

Hi klx!

I appreciate your knowledge bout dirttrackers, but I think your definition is a bit too strict.
Imho, the term "tracker" as it is used here in the foum describes the style, not the purpose
of a bike. Have a look at the bikes in the caferacer section - many of them are anything but
fast and will probably not handle well either... But I wouldn't hesitate to call them caferacers,
just because of the style of their seats and tanks and handlebars...

So if a bike here is called tracker, to me it's because it's inspired by the look of a real dirttracker.

Similar with my XT. Some ten years ago, a friend told me about the classic roadracing events he
took part in and that SRs and XTs were permitted. So I worked a bit on my bike and joined in.
It performed better then I expected and I modified the bike to my demands. The result didn't look
much like a roadracer, to me it's more like an early 80s superbike too hot washed, but people always
said it's a tracker (because of the Storz seat of course).

Best regards
Sven

You're bike does have a flat track look, but the 17s and bars give it away. Clearly a naked roadracer for the singles classes. With a bar change and more dirt oriented tires, it would probably be competitive on a flat track. I think I've seen bikes that riders have done both with over at Ashland and Mid Ohio. All it takes is two sets of wheels and a quick bar change for flat track bars with no mastercylinder and maybe longer cables.

Actually my definition eliminates the whole bobber/brat thing from the street/track agenda. I didn't say "win" I just said turn a real lap. Pitch it into a corner. Drag bars and short suspension don't work too well, nor do forward mount pegs and seats on the rails hard tails. It just seems wrong to call a brat a street/tracker just because it's the same model used by some to make the street/tracker.

Heck, when I first got into flat track back in 1972 it was the fat front tire that caught my eye. I had no clue about the bikes. I eventually learned it wasn't just a look, there was a reason for the fat front tire and also a reason for whatever size and tread was used. That is sort of where I get off telling others about a tracker. It's not just a fat tire and lowered suspension. Quite the opposite, it's having a bit of reasoning of the what and wherefore, then telling others that information. If they want to consider going one way or another, at least they have an idea where and what. Lowering a bike and sticking old fat "Firestones" on them doesn't make them a tracker, it makes them more a brat or bobber.

By the way, I like that look you have. It does kind of smack of the old superbikes in a way. A relationship similar in how the real roadracers matched up with the modified streetbikes made into superbikes, yours has that going on with the old school superbike and the flat tracker. I like the old superbike look and probably a majority of sport riders now wouldn't consider it a "sportbike" in spite of it's heritage, because it was what Ken Roberts, Eddie Lawson and others unaffectionately called "diesels" and "streetbikes" back in those early years... the years of two stroke roadracers. It doesn't have the look, but it has the potential and the heritage of sport riding and even roadracing although the Zephyr specifically doesn't fit in a vintage class - the GPz and KZ do though and are relativeley similar.

 

[scm]

Hi klx!

Thanx for your kind reply.
O.k., I'm kinda convinced, the thing is, if we'd be consistend then 95% of all bikes here
(including the caferacers) should be posted in the bob&chop forum...

Thanx again for your kind words on my XT, just want to mention that the bike has and
always has had 18" wheels, as no smaller ones are eligible. The bars are a compromise:
I tested clip ons and the gain is some 2s per 2min lap, but the bike just looks too stupid
with them. Higher bars would perhaps look cool, but I can't get enough weight on the
front wheel with them.

I think I've seen bikes that riders have done both with over at Ashland and Mid Ohio.
All it takes is two sets of wheels and a quick bar change for flat track bars with no
mastercylinder and maybe longer cables.

Heroes...

As we here in good old Europe have speedway but know shit about dirttrack, I think
I'll take the opportunity and ask some questions to a real expert:

Dirttrackers look cool, but "wrong" to me (I know they're right though...)
As far as I know, their chassis are quite different from what one should expect for a
bike that's driven sideways on dirt. I mean I can understand the 19" diameter, but
not the wide front tyres. There are no front brakes, so there should be little stress
on the tyre, wouldn't a narrow 19er give better handling and esp. a more precise
steering? Also the steering geometry is very much different from what I expected,
seems these bikes have very steep steering angles and very little trail. Doesn't that
make the bike nervous and anxious?

Also would like to know if there's a difference between dirt- and flattrack!? And some-
thing about TT-racing, I've seen dirttrack-bikes with frontbrakes jumping through the
air, is TT-racing the mother of supermoto?

Best regards
Sven








Actually my definition eliminates the whole bobber/brat thing from the street/track agenda. I didn't say "win" I just said turn a real lap. Pitch it into a corner. Drag bars and short suspension don't work too well, nor do forward mount pegs and seats on the rails hard tails. It just seems wrong to call a brat a street/tracker just because it's the same model used by some to make the street/tracker.

Heck, when I first got into flat track back in 1972 it was the fat front tire that caught my eye. I had no clue about the bikes. I eventually learned it wasn't just a look, there was a reason for the fat front tire and also a reason for whatever size and tread was used. That is sort of where I get off telling others about a tracker. It's not just a fat tire and lowered suspension. Quite the opposite, it's having a bit of reasoning of the what and wherefore, then telling others that information. If they want to consider going one way or another, at least they have an idea where and what. Lowering a bike and sticking old fat "Firestones" on them doesn't make them a tracker, it makes them more a brat or bobber.

By the way, I like that look you have. It does kind of smack of the old superbikes in a way. A relationship similar in how the real roadracers matched up with the modified streetbikes made into superbikes, yours has that going on with the old school superbike and the flat tracker. I like the old superbike look and probably a majority of sport riders now wouldn't consider it a "sportbike" in spite of it's heritage, because it was what Ken Roberts, Eddie Lawson and others unaffectionately called "diesels" and "streetbikes" back in those early years... the years of two stroke roadracers. It doesn't have the look, but it has the potential and the heritage of sport riding and even roadracing although the Zephyr specifically doesn't fit in a vintage class - the GPz and KZ do though and are relativeley similar.

[/quote]

 

[klx678]

The wheels just look smaller I guess because of the lower profile tires. You'd only want the different bars if you put the bike on the dirt track. One guy posted your bike over on THE ADV site when I also pointed out that a street/tracker was originally essentially a flat track bike made street legal. My response to his "Is this a street/tracker", because he was grilling the snot out of me due to his disagreement with me, was that it looked like a tracker, but the wheels and tires along with the bars told me it was a roadracer (no lighting and such either). But the chassis set up was very much like a flat track bike. You are riding a bike that darn near could run flat track, supermoto, and roadracing with minor changes appropriate for each.

Now about flat track...

Dirt track and flat track are pretty synonymous here. Both imply either a short track (1/10 to 1/4 mile), half mile, or mile. about 50 years ago in the hey day, there was even a 2 mile track run at Dodge City Kansas. TT racing, also called scrambles in some areas, was a race run on dirt trackers with brakes front and rear (for the longest time rear brakes were considered dangerous and thus illegal on flat track bikes - don't ask me why... I have nothing). A TT track was to have at least one right hand turn and a jump. That was back when an AMA rider scored points in short track, half mile, mile, roadracing, and TT to become a Grand National Champ. The roadracing split off back around 1980 or so, I'm not sure. Now it's all dirt for the GN title.

Tire sizes depend a lot on the bike sizes and other things. 19s came about mostly due to traditional wheel sizes and what worked. The fat 16s on Harleys and Indians were used up until some of the light weight bikes like the Gold Stars and Manxes started racing and winning in the 50s. As you probably know, those bikes had 19" wheels front and back. So guess what everyone started running... yep!

On MX bikes back in the 60s and to present times, frequently the rim size may be dependent on what was on the bike. The Bultaco Sherpa S and Pursangs had 18s on the back where the later Astros had 19s. Some riders ran 18s on the front because they had that rim already or the smaller bikes fit the 18 better. Shoot, the minis run smaller diameter yet.

Smaller bikes of 100-125cc may run a bit smaller tire cross section, 3.25-3.50, simply due to weight and rolling resistance. It seems that the wider 4.00 tire is best in general on most groomed flat tracks though. The wider tires also stick better on the "blue groove" tracks where the dirt becomes almost like pavement. I believe experimentation has also dictated the 19" diameter, since Ken Roberts did try roadracing tires back in the mid 70s when they were 18", but the resulting tires developed for dirt track that resembled those rain tires ended up being 19"... or it could have been because everyone was running 19s, but i doubt that. A racer would run a 15" or 22" if it worked better. I see you already understand the diameter, but I'm not going to erase and edit...

I will venture what I know about tire width and frame geometry, which isn't gospel.

The front tire will get pushed hard by the drive into a corner. The bike is either pitched sideways with a brief throttle chop or with the brake to set up the slide. The throttle and steering are used to maintain the optimum slide for the fastest corner. The steep rake is to quicken steering to enable adjustments to mainain the slide as needed. It also keeps the front weighted . One Triumph Gene Romero raced had such a frame geometry and engine forward in the frame that if he didn't get it to slide and corner under power it would drive toward the outside guard rail. It forced him to stay in the throttle and steer the bike in the slde. The steep geometry does make a nervous bike on the the straights. If you watch some race footage you will see how they move a lot on the straights. If they get started into a wobble, it can quickly become a crash due to that quickness in handling necessary in the corners.

The wider tire will maintain more traction for the intended purpose than a narrower one will, It won't knife in to extremely deep cusions of dirt or gravel when riding on the edge of the cushion (lip of dirt built up) and it will get the best grip on the exposed dirt surface just in from the cushion and on hard blue groove tracks.

Now your question about Supermoto. You bet flat track/TT was a player. The forerunner of supermoto was the late 70s to early 80s ABC (American Broadcasting Company) Superbikeers made for TV show run on the Wide World of Sports. The idea of who's the best motorcycle racer came up and the question of how to find out was asked. The "answer" was the Superbikers race developed by some motorcyclists and ABC. They got a number of the best riders from flat track, motocross, and road racing to race hybrid bikes on a track that consisted of both pavement and dirt. The bikes were mainly either flat track style or motocrossers at first, then the flat track tires went on the motocrossers and pretty much ruled the races.

ABC eventually ended the event and the AMA wasn't bright enough to see the potential of that type of racing. Some one in France was... thus Supermoto was borne from an American TV show race. And I am glad. They took the best of it, MX bikes with "street tires" and made a race series that is one of the most exciting sports in the world.

I hope some of this makes sense. As I type the forum programming jumps up and down and really screws with me as I go...

 

[scm]

Wow! Now that's one detailed reply! Thank you!
Will take me a while to have all understood

THE ADV site

What is this? Something dirt-/streettracky?
I'm interested in any pix, info and suggestion on that subject!

Best regards
Sven

 

[klx678]

http://www.advrider.com/forums/ is a fun world wide forum that covers about everything. You need to join, then go to the Old School section and check out the Cafe racers and Flat trackers thread. That's where a guy "Jehu" has posted a ton of pictures, including your XT!

I think you would like it.

 

[scm]

Done!
Don't like it - love it!
Also very nice: the "just vintage roadracers" thread.

Thank you very much!

Sven

 

[scm]

Now back to topic...

Regardless of it's abilities on a half mile track, this bike definitely does look cool
and I wouldn't change it very much. I love the "used" look and I think some careful
cleaning (maybe raplacement of some rusty bolts) will lead to a better result than
the "powdercoat the frame and rattlecan the engine"-nonsense often seen here...

Post more pix please!


Best regards
Sven

 

[motomotard]

im diggin it the way it is

its got alot of character, and its not all backyard chopped the fuck up or half asses cafed. im sure youll mess with it some more, but the vib its got goin on now is nice. simple , nice and dirty, ridin, vintage bike.

maybe ditch the headlight

read you had an XT, love those damn bikes. this was my build thread on ADVrider for my XT350

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=498583

 

[Flying_Flannel_89]

Love the look of this bike! I've been kicking around ideas for my 450, a few of which include european bars and cut-down sock seat. How do you like those euro bars? Are they the same Bikemaster ones you can get on Ebay? Did you use the stock seat foam? And do you run without an airbox? How do those CV carbs hold up with no restriction/backpressure?

At least now I know what mine will look like with the stock seat lowered, looks great man! Definitely saving this pic to my "inspiration" file!