Harley Davidson Cafe Racer?
- Thread starter Griff5268
- Start date
t71ford
Over 1,000 Posts
I've been thinking about this a lot since I started riding HD (you all have seen my Softail). I think everyone here's beef should be more with the Hell's Angel's than with the Harley marque. Any of the disagreeable HD types I have been around are trying way harder to imitate the Red and White image than they are to any so-called Harley rider image. I don't think HD has an image, since Harley has advertised its "image" in a plethora of ways. I think the disagreeable image we all imagine is actually an image the outlaw motorcycle clubs have generated, and it turns out they all ride HD, too. Guilty by association, and plenty of wanna be badasses are just trying to copy. Shoot, I even know of a church riding group that wears "colors" on "cuts", dress in black leather and studs, and tries to imitate the attitude of the Angels.
It is an unfortunate coincidence that the Angel's have chosen HD, but to put things in perspective, there have recently been some offshore built bike marque copies that have been re-introduced, with their original 1950's styling and performance. No one is saying anything about those though, even though their marketing schemes are targeting the "retro" crowd as well. They may be more crude and underpowered than any of the current production HD bikes, and no one has called them on it. HD has been building the same sorts of bikes for years, and almost has that style dialed. But leave Indian and Royal Enfield alone, those are just cool retro bikes, "designed" (or not) to provide the "original riding experience.
I am no lover of any particular company, but to its credit HD is still a fairly (don't start with AMF) autonomous company, making bikes for people to ride--just like Honda, Kawi, and Yamaha. They do not use any advertising agendas that the other makers don't, except to draw off their nearly 40 year longer production history. And hey, Made in America still sells, too. Even if components are outsourced (someone go after Mikuni for not being American!), the bulk is still here. They deserve that. They are high priced, too, but maybe that is because Joe Assemblyman demands two weeks paid off, holidays, and a full dental plan to keep up with the American Dream--instead of a fish and the hope he can come back to his job tomorrow. That trickles down to cost someone.
Again, I am not die hard, HD. I don't wear black leather and studs, nor is my wallet on a chain. I even wave to bicyclists when they are not pissing me off. But just bashing a maker because of a stereotype created by a portion of its clientel seems a little silly.
/rant
It is an unfortunate coincidence that the Angel's have chosen HD, but to put things in perspective, there have recently been some offshore built bike marque copies that have been re-introduced, with their original 1950's styling and performance. No one is saying anything about those though, even though their marketing schemes are targeting the "retro" crowd as well. They may be more crude and underpowered than any of the current production HD bikes, and no one has called them on it. HD has been building the same sorts of bikes for years, and almost has that style dialed. But leave Indian and Royal Enfield alone, those are just cool retro bikes, "designed" (or not) to provide the "original riding experience.
I am no lover of any particular company, but to its credit HD is still a fairly (don't start with AMF) autonomous company, making bikes for people to ride--just like Honda, Kawi, and Yamaha. They do not use any advertising agendas that the other makers don't, except to draw off their nearly 40 year longer production history. And hey, Made in America still sells, too. Even if components are outsourced (someone go after Mikuni for not being American!), the bulk is still here. They deserve that. They are high priced, too, but maybe that is because Joe Assemblyman demands two weeks paid off, holidays, and a full dental plan to keep up with the American Dream--instead of a fish and the hope he can come back to his job tomorrow. That trickles down to cost someone.
Again, I am not die hard, HD. I don't wear black leather and studs, nor is my wallet on a chain. I even wave to bicyclists when they are not pissing me off. But just bashing a maker because of a stereotype created by a portion of its clientel seems a little silly.
/rant
biker_reject
Over 1,000 Posts
People ask me what's wrong with H-D. I say: "Over the years, I've learned six things: H-D's are over priced; over hyped; antiquated; loud; heavy; and slow." You are exactly right about the target demographics, too. They are emulating not just Hells Angels, but 1%'ers in general, in their dress, lingo, and attitudes. But, that goes hand in hand with the six characteristics I mentioned above. There is a new club riding around here called the Defiant Crew. I noticed their colors (very gangster like) but didn't see a bottom rocker denoting territory. I asked a friend who rides with a sport bike club if she had ever heard of them. She hadn't. I looked it up on line and discovered that it is a club made up of among others, police officers. This infatuation with outlaw gangs has made it's way into the sport bike world as well, with (predominantly) urban clubs adopting the look and lingo. H-D does market to this wanna be demographic. Look at their clothing line. They have never to my knowledge, distanced themselves from outlaws. I feel they give tacit approval to them! It is because of this that they will never shake that dirtbag image.
Here's a nice one from Throttle Yard a while back
Full story here: http://throttleyard.com/2011/04/24/iron-grabber-dp-customs-1985-harley-davidson/
Full story here: http://throttleyard.com/2011/04/24/iron-grabber-dp-customs-1985-harley-davidson/
crazypj
Split personality, I fake being smart
t71ford said:
Why make a big deal about HD doing something they really don't have much experience of?
(last HD aircooled roadraceres were around 1970)
The watercooled motor doesn't count as it was at least 40bhp down on the competition and got de-tuned further to make the 'bubble head
They ain't doing it because they love bikes
If they did, they wouldn't be so overpriced and over marketed.
If I remember my history lessons correctly, Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki were started by people who wanted to make bikes, Kawasaki in particular as owners son wanted his own bike, not, as a money making only venture, it was more of a hobby (and probably still is for Kawasaki seeing the size of Kawasaki Heavy Industries)
biker_reject
Over 1,000 Posts
I've always felt that about Kawasaki. Just think what they could build if they were serious about motorcycles. I owned a '98 ZX9R, you know, the one the magazine guys got to do a 9.9 1/4 mile on a country road? Uh, yeah. That thing rocked.
kneedragger74
Been Around the Block
Just got these today at the vintage cycle show in Michigan. I know I just posted them in a different topic, but I thought this one was fitting.
billywhizz
New Member
You have to admit the man has got talent...
www.erikbuellracing.com
the video of the new bike is damn sexiness in itself
On another note I am 3/4 way through a 1998 S1 Lightning cafe project
the engine has already been worked in a previous build, so its mainly cosmetics and then suck it and see for future styling
www.erikbuellracing.com
the video of the new bike is damn sexiness in itself
On another note I am 3/4 way through a 1998 S1 Lightning cafe project
the engine has already been worked in a previous build, so its mainly cosmetics and then suck it and see for future styling
t71ford
Over 1,000 Posts
I think , though, that anyone claiming that a publicly owned business is going about it for the pure fun of making motorcycles is delusional and will be describing a business that will be defunct soon. I guarantee that Kawasaki, Yamaha, HD, or any other maker would cease production of any model-no matter how cool- should that model cease to be a money maker. For that reason HD continues to market black leather and big cruiser bikes--why cut your own throat financially, when there is a ready and waiting clientel eager to scoop that stuff up? Clearly HD is not so unpopular as to need to change its marketing tactics yet to appeal to another source. For that matter, the other makers largely struggle in the big cruiser market share niche, as they cannot financially justify the expense to dedicate a cruiser line long enough to overtake the mark of HD. Interestingly, HD does not field a GP bike, either.
This is not to decry any of the cruiser types from the other brands, but it shows that they still market in their areas of strength, the same as HD. And they are all -bottom line- pursuant of the the All Important profit margin. None is kindly looking 40 years into the future to provide cheap garage build fodder for all of us.
Again, everyone is quick to note the exorbitant cost of HD. However they ignore the cheap and ready labor that is available off shore. In case anyone missed it, anything built in the US is more expensive. My work boots cost $400 a pair, but were built in Washington. Perhaps I should rethink that purchase as overpriced, when I could buy the offshore built copy for less than $100. Or maybe I could realize that they were made buy a guy with skills, who wants to work a 40/ hr week with full benefits and a retirement plan. Regardless, I think some miss that production costs in this country of ours are huge, and that that cost must trickle down to someone. Strangely enough, the costs of the offshore brands are inching up at a rapid pace, in keeping with the global economic shift, to where they rival the costs of many of the HD models. The price disparity is not so large as it once was, since the offshore makes fight with the realities of raw material cost, labor, and design. Beyond that, though, it seems the depreciation rate of HD is less than the off shore counterparts...perhaps indicating some inherent "value". For further reference, a Ninja 1000 has a MSRP of significantly higher than any of the 1200 Sportsters. (Chose those models as ones that those here "might" ride). Price out Vulcan big twins versus the HD big twins, and the prices are surprisingly similar: $15,500 for the Kawasaki 1700 Nomad vs. $16,999 for a Road King (Suggested retail) The price hype argument is time worn, and not as relevant as one would suppose. Go on their websites and price them out.
To argue heritage, HD was started by three guys in a garage, with a really cool idea, and a pretty darn near new technology. I don't think anyone could have wanted to build bikes more than they. I think we all aspire to have this kind of drive and desire. Sure, they all start this way, and all have come thus far by being for-profit businesses. It is really curious to me to see the anti-HD sentiment for reasons that are easily justifiable (though perhaps not accepted), and are often employed by the "accepted" makers. To compare any of the current corporate mission statements with those of the founders is a bit silly anyway.
But back on topic, do I think that HD should be in the "specials" market? No. I am in agreement with PJ, that HD does not have much experience in this arena. They are a purpose built machine for a slow, Saturday ride on a moderately twisty road with a picnic lunch in the bags and your girlfriend/ wife / other on the back. You can't do that well on your sportbike, and I can just barely do the Ton on my Heritage. The attempts that have been made look decidedly cool, and could most likely be outperformed by any middle '70s Japanese brand in decent tune. If I put an N14 Cummins engine in my pickup, it doesn't make it a semitruck, and putting the 350 Chevy in a Peterbilt doesn't make it a pickup. They are both trucks, with decidedly different purposes. And while some cool cross breeding can be attempted, form will always follow function.
I have said enough. I hope everyone can understand that I am not defending any brand, but am playing devil's advocate for some pretty shallow accusations and supports made for the brands in question. And it is all in good fun, too. These might be my own crackpot ravings, anyway! ;D
This is not to decry any of the cruiser types from the other brands, but it shows that they still market in their areas of strength, the same as HD. And they are all -bottom line- pursuant of the the All Important profit margin. None is kindly looking 40 years into the future to provide cheap garage build fodder for all of us.
Again, everyone is quick to note the exorbitant cost of HD. However they ignore the cheap and ready labor that is available off shore. In case anyone missed it, anything built in the US is more expensive. My work boots cost $400 a pair, but were built in Washington. Perhaps I should rethink that purchase as overpriced, when I could buy the offshore built copy for less than $100. Or maybe I could realize that they were made buy a guy with skills, who wants to work a 40/ hr week with full benefits and a retirement plan. Regardless, I think some miss that production costs in this country of ours are huge, and that that cost must trickle down to someone. Strangely enough, the costs of the offshore brands are inching up at a rapid pace, in keeping with the global economic shift, to where they rival the costs of many of the HD models. The price disparity is not so large as it once was, since the offshore makes fight with the realities of raw material cost, labor, and design. Beyond that, though, it seems the depreciation rate of HD is less than the off shore counterparts...perhaps indicating some inherent "value". For further reference, a Ninja 1000 has a MSRP of significantly higher than any of the 1200 Sportsters. (Chose those models as ones that those here "might" ride). Price out Vulcan big twins versus the HD big twins, and the prices are surprisingly similar: $15,500 for the Kawasaki 1700 Nomad vs. $16,999 for a Road King (Suggested retail) The price hype argument is time worn, and not as relevant as one would suppose. Go on their websites and price them out.
To argue heritage, HD was started by three guys in a garage, with a really cool idea, and a pretty darn near new technology. I don't think anyone could have wanted to build bikes more than they. I think we all aspire to have this kind of drive and desire. Sure, they all start this way, and all have come thus far by being for-profit businesses. It is really curious to me to see the anti-HD sentiment for reasons that are easily justifiable (though perhaps not accepted), and are often employed by the "accepted" makers. To compare any of the current corporate mission statements with those of the founders is a bit silly anyway.
But back on topic, do I think that HD should be in the "specials" market? No. I am in agreement with PJ, that HD does not have much experience in this arena. They are a purpose built machine for a slow, Saturday ride on a moderately twisty road with a picnic lunch in the bags and your girlfriend/ wife / other on the back. You can't do that well on your sportbike, and I can just barely do the Ton on my Heritage. The attempts that have been made look decidedly cool, and could most likely be outperformed by any middle '70s Japanese brand in decent tune. If I put an N14 Cummins engine in my pickup, it doesn't make it a semitruck, and putting the 350 Chevy in a Peterbilt doesn't make it a pickup. They are both trucks, with decidedly different purposes. And while some cool cross breeding can be attempted, form will always follow function.
I have said enough. I hope everyone can understand that I am not defending any brand, but am playing devil's advocate for some pretty shallow accusations and supports made for the brands in question. And it is all in good fun, too. These might be my own crackpot ravings, anyway! ;D
CB350f Cafe
Been Around the Block
Cummings HD... I wanna hear it.
VonYinzer
Over 10,000 Posts
Im guessing that "Cummings H-D" is just the name of the dealership that sponsors the bike...
http://www.motorcycle.com/dealers/cummings-harley-davidson-5360.html
As far as the cost argument on HDs... When were talking about oversees production, please remember that with most of the bikes were talking about Japan. Not India, or Taiwan.
"According to the NHK World Radio Japan podcast for May 24, 2010, the Japanese Labour Ministry did a survey with about 57,000 Japanese households in 2008. The results from this survey showed that the average yearly income for families in Japan dropped to its lowest level in 20 years. The average household income in Japan is ¥5,475,000 (about $60,600 USD)."
-WithinJapan.com
The US median income is $50,221. (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html)
So... Its not exactly like workers employed by Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, etc are making less money for doing the same job as the US Harley employees.
And on top of that, HDs are just assembled here from foriegn built parts. Ive read anywhere from 30% to 75% of that new HD has been sourced from countries like China, Taiwan, India, Austria, Mexico...
Most Japanese companies use predominatly Japanese made parts. The parts they use that arent Japanese are usually made by companies that they own.
Now... We have a Japanese company that pays theyre employees a good wage, creates a technologically superior (at least more advanced) product, ships it here from Japan, and still prices it lower than HDs similar offerings. They provide the same services as HD as far as dealer support, and parts supply (though generally at cheaper costs to the customer).
On the other hand, we have HD. The import a vast percentage of their parts, still basically build the same bike that they have been for 30 years now, and charge an ever increasing premium for it.
The spend NO money on racing (outside of some drag racing). They spend almost no money on research and development, because they dont have to. They are in talks now to build an assembly plant in India. They shut down the only division of their company (Buell) that actually had some forward thought. They cut employees regularly (http://www.jsonline.com/business/102470789.html). And all of this as they (in 2008) reported 4.8 BILLION in revenue. Hell, I have a buddy with an 06 "special edition" Dyna. The only difference is the paint (his is #870 of 2500) and that alone increased the cost of the new bike biy $2900!!!!
Ok...
Now...
I have no real beef with Harley Davidson. As Ive said 1,000,000 times here, I would kill for an original 45" flattie or a nice Ironhead Sporty. Hell even a new Evo Sporty would be cool. But... The average price (that Ive seen) for a decent late 80s early 90s Sportster is somewhere in the $3000 to $4000 range. Thats crazy. And for what? A barely 50hp and 200lb motor, 30 year old frame design, antiquated suspension, and the gurantee that Ill go bankrupt if the motor has any issues?
I try to support small, local (or at least domestic) buisness as much as I can. Always look for the made in USA tag, and I if I can afford it thats all I buy. Coming from a city like Pittsburgh, I understand the effect that outsourcing and plant closures have on a region and its people. I see a city that everyday is still trying to pick itself up from an economic collapse that happened 45 years ago. So I get the importance of supporting our countries buisnesses.
It seems that HD does not though. ANd thats my main beef with them. For all the USA! USA! you hear them screaming at the rallies, they sure dont really seem too concerned with the actual act of supprting this country or its people. We are a massive group of buyers, potential customers and thats it.
So... Thats why I have little interest in new HDs or the company that builds them. Thats why they wont get my money. For the very little its worth, I would feel differently if their sales pitch and their whole company persona wasnt such a bullshit lie.
Oh well. Not that it matters.
http://www.motorcycle.com/dealers/cummings-harley-davidson-5360.html
As far as the cost argument on HDs... When were talking about oversees production, please remember that with most of the bikes were talking about Japan. Not India, or Taiwan.
"According to the NHK World Radio Japan podcast for May 24, 2010, the Japanese Labour Ministry did a survey with about 57,000 Japanese households in 2008. The results from this survey showed that the average yearly income for families in Japan dropped to its lowest level in 20 years. The average household income in Japan is ¥5,475,000 (about $60,600 USD)."
-WithinJapan.com
The US median income is $50,221. (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html)
So... Its not exactly like workers employed by Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, etc are making less money for doing the same job as the US Harley employees.
And on top of that, HDs are just assembled here from foriegn built parts. Ive read anywhere from 30% to 75% of that new HD has been sourced from countries like China, Taiwan, India, Austria, Mexico...
Most Japanese companies use predominatly Japanese made parts. The parts they use that arent Japanese are usually made by companies that they own.
Now... We have a Japanese company that pays theyre employees a good wage, creates a technologically superior (at least more advanced) product, ships it here from Japan, and still prices it lower than HDs similar offerings. They provide the same services as HD as far as dealer support, and parts supply (though generally at cheaper costs to the customer).
On the other hand, we have HD. The import a vast percentage of their parts, still basically build the same bike that they have been for 30 years now, and charge an ever increasing premium for it.
The spend NO money on racing (outside of some drag racing). They spend almost no money on research and development, because they dont have to. They are in talks now to build an assembly plant in India. They shut down the only division of their company (Buell) that actually had some forward thought. They cut employees regularly (http://www.jsonline.com/business/102470789.html). And all of this as they (in 2008) reported 4.8 BILLION in revenue. Hell, I have a buddy with an 06 "special edition" Dyna. The only difference is the paint (his is #870 of 2500) and that alone increased the cost of the new bike biy $2900!!!!
Ok...
Now...
I have no real beef with Harley Davidson. As Ive said 1,000,000 times here, I would kill for an original 45" flattie or a nice Ironhead Sporty. Hell even a new Evo Sporty would be cool. But... The average price (that Ive seen) for a decent late 80s early 90s Sportster is somewhere in the $3000 to $4000 range. Thats crazy. And for what? A barely 50hp and 200lb motor, 30 year old frame design, antiquated suspension, and the gurantee that Ill go bankrupt if the motor has any issues?
I try to support small, local (or at least domestic) buisness as much as I can. Always look for the made in USA tag, and I if I can afford it thats all I buy. Coming from a city like Pittsburgh, I understand the effect that outsourcing and plant closures have on a region and its people. I see a city that everyday is still trying to pick itself up from an economic collapse that happened 45 years ago. So I get the importance of supporting our countries buisnesses.
It seems that HD does not though. ANd thats my main beef with them. For all the USA! USA! you hear them screaming at the rallies, they sure dont really seem too concerned with the actual act of supprting this country or its people. We are a massive group of buyers, potential customers and thats it.
So... Thats why I have little interest in new HDs or the company that builds them. Thats why they wont get my money. For the very little its worth, I would feel differently if their sales pitch and their whole company persona wasnt such a bullshit lie.
Oh well. Not that it matters.
TheChild
Been Around the Block
First of all, I think there is a rule that your post can't take up half of the page. I don't have any beef with HD. In fact I have considered a Sporty many times. I think the American heritage is important to remember. Do I want to be associated with most of the tool bags who ride them? Hell NO. Secondly: I came across an HD news article yesterday, and it clearly stated that HD's largest market for the Sporty was Japan. How's that for irony?
