Lithium type batteries charging

[eran_k]

Hi all,
I wish to use a lithium battery on my bike, for saving space and weight.
I know from my RC hobby that they need a special charger, so how do they work on bikes?

Eran

 

[SimJen]

most come with inbuilt charging systems, so you can charge like normal batteries

 

[Rich Ard]

Battery Tender (or the "...Jr." model) do the trick.

 

[mydlyfkryzis]

The mfg's have specific chargers fpr their batteries too. For instance:

http://www.ballisticparts.com/products/Charger/chargerBalance.php

The Ballistic Performance Components EVO2 Battery Management System Balance Charger is the only charger on the market designed specifically to work with the Ballistic Performance Components EVO2 battery. The primary advantage to the Ballistic Performance Components BMS Blance Charger is the balance charging function. The Balance mode balances the voltage of each cell or cell pack while charging. By balance charging your Ballistic Performance Components Battery you insure that the battery is operating at its maximum power. Periodic balances charging can also double the expected life of your battery. This charger is not required to operate your EVO2 Battery, but it is highly recommended.

Ballistic has a balance charger.

While the Mfg.s all say a good charger like the Battery Tender Brand will work, for the best performance, they recommend their chargers.

The Li batteries are made up of individual cells. Due to variance in MFG, and I guess it is an issue more with Li batteries then Lead Acid (Lead Acid benefits form balanced charging though), the cells do not discharge quite at the sam e rate or charge at the same rate. A balance charger charges each cell individually, so that all the cells are at the same amount of charge. This helps prevent damage by preventing one of the cells from discharging to low, as the total voltage may be good, but one cell may be low.

Many swear they have used the Li batteries without any special care, but there are still many cases of meltdowns and burn-ups too.

If I decided to use a Li battery, I would get the balancing charger. Even my Craftsman Rechargable Li Ion battery for my drill has a different charger then the standard Nicad.

 

[SimJen]

to be safe, only get a battery that has an integrated battery management system, like the Shorai's and a few others.

 

[notlob]

I have used Shorai before and they state that you can used a normal lead acid battery charger and never use one that has a desulphate mode or trickle charge on it.

I blew up a chines a123 battery just with the bike charging system. When I enquired they say only use a special charger, so I asked how does that work on a motorcycle then. I'm still awaiting a reply.

If these batteries need a special balance charger then how do they work on a motorcycle charging system? Do you need to wire in a special charger? otherwise you battery gonna become toast at some point. Or am I missing something really obvious?

 

[SimJen]

the Shorai's have a circuit that limits current and voltage the correct way as per a special Lipo only charger does.
The ones without these circuits, I wouldn't use on a bike!
Too much voltage or too much current will blow a lithium in no time!

 

[jdizon]

Using the battery tender jr on my 8 cell ballistic battery. Haven't had a problem yet. Knock on wood

 

[SimJen]

the ballistics have a note that they should not be over discharged or charged outside the parameters listed below:

Charging:
The best method for charging your EVO2 battery is to use the Ballistic Professional Intelligent Digital Balance Charger. It has a fast charge mode, a storage mode, and the ability to charge each cell or series individually. This Balance mode, when used periodically will greatly extend the life of the EVO2 battery.
You can use a conventional automotive or motorcycle based charger to recharge or maintain your EVO2 Battery. When using a conventional charger/trickle charge please check the following:
The charger should have an automatic cut-off at 14.4V to prevent over charging.
If you are using an automatic charger, be sure it does not have an automatic “desulfication” mode. This is a lead-acid specific function that can damage the EVO2 cells.
Some conventional automatic chargers have charging parameters based around lead-acid voltage specifications which are lower than EVO2 voltage specifications. If your automatic charger shuts off at 12.8 volts then it will never fully charge a EVO2 battery with a resting voltage of 13.2v

This shows that they don't have a protection circuit built in! I'd be careful with any Lithium without one! For a little more you get peace of mind that your bike is not going to overcharge it and burn to the ground!

 

[mydlyfkryzis]

Well, even the Shorai recommend their charger (I bolded the appropriate test):

Q. Can I use Lead-Acid battery chargers or charger/tenders?
A.Yes. HOWEVER, you may NOT use a charger/tender if it has an automatic "desulfation mode", which cannot be turned off. We have confirmed with Deltran, makers of the "Battery Tender" brand, that their products do NOT have a desulfation mode, and are therefore OK for use with Shorai LFX, for example. But the best possible charger/tender for Shorai LFX is the SHO-BMS01, which will be released on about March 15th 2011, we expect. It uses the 5-pin BMS port in the LFX batteries, in order to monitor, diagnose, and balance the individual cells during charge. And it also has an optimized storage mode that will give the longest possible service life to your LFX.

If you are storing your vehicle and want to check the remaining capacity, or you're a racer with a constant-loss system, you'll want to know how resting voltage (i.e. with no load or load under 200mA) maps to remaining capacity. LFX batteries should be maintained such that 20% capacity remains at minimum, as best practice. Use a good-quality voltmeter to check remaining capacity, and consider recharge whenever the battery capacity falls to about 50% remaining. Of course, if you get the Shorai dedicated BMS01 charger, you can just hit the "Store Mode" button and leave it to do the work for you.

I guess I am crazy, but I use a conventional lead acid battery. Was $34.74 out the door at BatteriesPlus.

I can buy one a year for 5 years for the cost of one 12AH Li Battery.

My present AGM Battery in my 750 is from 2006 @ $85. It is over 6 years old (12.6 Volt resting) and still going strong. It is on a Battery Tender whenever I am not riding it.

I can see if you are eliminating the battery box and need small, but if you aren't, I am not sure if there is any real value other than size for the battery. Weight is really a non-issue unless you are professionally racing. And racers tend to remove the charging system altogether, and use a total loss system.

Most of the Seat humps I have seen would accommodate a sealed AGM battery and they would save some money. The system is designed around Lead Acid, and probably works best with Lead Acid chemistry. If the Li Battery was $40, then I would see the some real value.

If you go lithium, make sure your charging system is spot on, all wiring in excellent shape. All connections tight and conductive. Measuer the output from the alternator, DC volts, and make sure it isn't going to high. Replace your regulator if it isn't within the battery spec. the Li batteries can melt down from over voltage.

 

[eran_k]

Is there a way to use the battery in the bike without charging it from the alternator\ dynamo?

 

[SONICJK]

Yeah, charge it before each ride and don't hook up the alternator.
Called total loss.

 

[Rich Ard]

And if you do it w/ a LiFE battery it'll be a double total loss because the batteries don't like it.