My First Project... The ever changing face of a 1977 Honda CB400F

[RockVegas]

He tore it down as he was supposed to. Billable time, the only billable time.

He wasn't able to get past the brick wall. He's of no more use.

Pick up the bike, bring to a good shop, pay to have them pick up where he left off. Pisser to bring a busted bike and a box of parts to a shop, but if they know their ass from a hole in the ground, they'll be able to straighten it out. Sure, it's going to be more money in the long run... maybe.

Only other option I see is to get someone to get the ez-out out, get the bolt out, then take it back to him. But then you're bringing it back to a less competent shop, not sure that makes a ton of sense.

 

[Laughter13]

yeah... i agree that this guy doesn't see to be at the top of his game.


I have been on the phone for about an hour, still two hours since mechanic said he would call right back. I have called about 5 local bike shops and as soon as i tell them that i have a broken extractor bit in the engine casing, they say, "your in bad shape...". I have asked if anyone knows another mechanic around that might be able to take a look at it and most people are saying i should probably just buy a new engine (not really an option, i would sell the bike before doing that).


I guess i am pretty much at the point where i dont know what to do. Maybe just have him put the bike back together and bring it home. I can try everything i can possibly come up with on it in my own time while the bike is still ride-able (guess i dont know that for sure untill the new cam chain goes back in and we see how much slack there is).


I hate my life....

 

[Bozz]

Sorry to hear of your state of affairs.

This may seem a bit obvious (and you may well have done this and I missed it)

Have you put out a call to any MI members on DTT?

There are quite a few folks here that have the skills to assist, I'm just not sure if any of them are close to your neck of the woods.

If you were in NC I'd invite you over to my place, but that commute is a bitch.

Don't get overly frustrated if you can. While this really feels like a brick wall as you bang your head against it, your elation will know no bounds when you finally overcome it.

These are old machines, they break down, they have issues, they have "personality" but they also can provide the kind of joy that they just don't make any more.

We are here to listen, assist, encourage, educate and critique. We've all been in your shoes at one point or another.

Don't loose hope!

 

[Laughter13]

Appreciate the encouragement...


Just got off the phone with the mechanic and feel a little better about his competance. He explained to me that he has spend a few days (in total hours) trying to get this damn "easy-out" bit out. Tried welding to it (but wouldnt take any weld), tried hitting it with all kinds of bits including a carbide kind of "hole saw" bit with a sharp tip to try and break it (but nothing). He told me he has pulled out quite a few of these in the past, but this one is particularly a pain in the ass. He said he definantly wouldnt charge me for the time invested in trying to remove the bit, but is at a loss for words about what to do now.

My only idea is this, use his funky hole saw style carbid bit (in a similar way that he did already) and cut out around the "easy-out" as much as possible untill the damn thing has nothing left to be stuck to. His response was that if we go too far, we may loose the ability to lock the tensioner rod in place and the chain may be too loose to even ride the bike. I dont really see why this could be the case. If we drill out most of the hole we can always weld on a aluminum nut to the case and just thread a new bolt through that and into the rod.... right?

Sadly enough, he is going to give one more try tonight (for a half hour he said) to get the bit out. If it doesnt work, we agreed it might be time to just put the new cam chain, guides, and tensioner in the bike and cross our fingers on whether the current setting is tight enough.

Not sure what else to do other than say okay and hopefully i can ride the bike a little longer (before i am out everything i have invested in her), and then sell for scrap next spring. :'( bummer


diagram shows the complete cam chain system. the bolt marked # 12 is the one that is stuck and has an "easy-out" bit stuck in it.

 

[teazer]

Take the crankcase half with the broken bit to a competent machine shop. No point in calling bike shops or mechanics. It's a machining job now. I am making the assumption here that if your guy couldn't get it out, it badly bodged and corroded in place.

It will probably have to be EDM a.k.a. Spark eroded. It's easy for shops with that equipment and impossible for the rest of us.

The other way is to grind around it and when it's out, build it back up with weld and machine a new thread. I've had to do both in the past.

 

[Laughter13]

Take the crankcase half with the broken bit to a competent machine shop. No point in calling bike shops or mechanics. It's a machining job now. I am making the assumption here that if your guy couldn't get it out, it badly bodged and corroded in place.

It will probably have to be EDM a.k.a. Spark eroded. It's easy for shops with that equipment and impossible for the rest of us.

The other way is to grind around it and when it's out, build it back up with weld and machine a new thread. I've had to do both in the past.

so you have ground out around an easy out similar to my situation?


did you need to remove the engine to do that method?


My concern is that my mechanic seemed to think that we could potentially loose the ability to keep the tensioner rod tight. I was confused by this since i figured drill as far as possible to get past the 'easy-out" bit and then all i have left is the very end of the original bolt. try and extract that without f-ing up the tensioner rod. then pull the rod out and re-tap (or i have even seen someone weld a nut on the exterior of the case to have something to thread through until the new bolt hits the rod).


I am assuming this can be done without removal of the engine, or even taking the heads off ( i would love to not have to go in there myself, or have a mechanic do this again... )?


any more thoughts are always appreciated!!!!!!

 

[interceptor]

Just throwing this out there, and I don't really know what your working on exactly, but... Can you drill out from the other side (directly behind) and then punch out the extractor, weld up the hole and redrill and tap?

 

[Laughter13]

Just throwing this out there, and I don't really know what your working on exactly, but... Can you drill out from the other side (directly behind) and then punch out the extractor, weld up the hole and redrill and tap?

yeah.... that would be nice. problem is that this is the tensioner locking bolt and the other end of it is inside the bottom of my engine. Appreciate the feedback though!!!!

 

[Big R]

Wait- the engine is still in the bike?

 

[teazer]

For some reason the prior posts lead me to believe that the motor was in pieces. I realize now that may not be the case. That's a problem.

Drilling/tapping/welding etc are best done on a clean casing with the rest of the motor tucked away in a warm, clean place. Sometimes it's possible to get those bolts loose by applying lots of heat - but not so much that something melts. Remind me again - how bad is teh cam chain rattle and would it last until the bad weather returns.

 

[Laughter13]

yup the engine is still on the bike....


mechanic has the top end off to replace the cam chain. He has pulled it down to the heads and told me that if i we needed to split the case, the cost would be too much and the bike isnt worth it.


As for the rattle, it was getting progressively worse before this work began, but i dont think it was bad enough that it could skip or cause too much damage. The hope is that with new guides, chain, and tensioner, things will be in better shape, but without the ability to adjust since our locking bolt is the problem right now.


Also, i do not have a heated space to work on the bike next winter, which is very necessary in Michigan!

 

[IndieSol]

I see these bikes sell for $3k and over (occasionally well over) in nice, rideable condition. I think it's worth fixing. The right way.

 

[Laughter13]

After 7 months at the mechanic shes finally back!

After all that time the mechanic still couldn’t get the carbide bit out of the cam chain tensioner locking bolt, so I will have to address that issue in the near future. The new cam chain, guides and tensioner have completely removed any sound from the chain, so for now, things are good.

But there are always problems….

Now that I have had the ability to ride her for a bit, I have noticed some shifting issues that I wanted to get some feedback on. Basically, 1st and 2nd gear are pretty clunky and the shifting is really sloppy. Even when I am at a complete stand-still in N and pull the clutch lever and step down to 1st I get a clunk before I release the clutch lever. Pretty much the same exact sound when shifting into second before I release as well. As for the shifting itself, it never truly “clicks” when I lift or step on the shifter, but it has when the bike is cold, so I know what it “should” feel like. I am hoping this is a clutch issue and not a transmission issue as I have spend most of my savings on the recent repairs.

This weekend I plan on putting in the new plugs I ordered and performing an oil change as I don’t fully trust whatever oil the mechanic may have put in. I assume this is a perfect time to remove the clutch cover and take a quick look at the basket to see if anything is standing out like a sore thumb, since I really have no idea what I am looking for. I have seen a few pics of a clutch in good shape and one in bad, but that’s the extent of my knowledge.

Here is a pic of her with her new paint!

 

[Laughter13]

Not getting many responses on my shifting issue so i figured i would post the next thing i have noticed...

I have noticed some knocking while idling below 1700 rpms. Happens when cold, hot and pretty much any time idling below the 1700 rpms. The sound, i believe, is coming from the front left side? ??? not sure exactly. even when the clutch is pulled as well.

Any thoughts are always welcome....

 

[bikeboy]

Not getting many responses on my shifting issue so i figured i would post the next thing i have noticed...

can't help with the shifting, but out of sync carbs can produce a knocking sound as the primary chain jerks? May be worth investigating?

cheers
ian

 

[Laughter13]

got ambitious over lunch and decided to stop by my local honda dealer and pick up some high quality motor oil, brake fluid, oil filter and do a quick oil change and spark plug swap (bought the spark plugs on Bikebandit.com).

Good news.... Shifting has dramatically improved, so whatever motor oil my "mechanic" (whome i wont be visiting again) was using wasnt treating my wet clutch very well. The knocking sound was still present when i first started up, but smoothed out once she warmed up (good improvement). My spark plugs showed some richness in my mix, so after work i plan to "re-set" the fuel/air mix (I heard start at 1.5 turns and go from there).

New bad news... reason for oil change was oil was a little low. I had a slight oil leak on the left side cooling fins (assuming comming from top head gasket) that I found after about two weeks from purchasing bike. Previous owner must have cleaned it up real well and "forgot" to mention during sale. The leak is still there and "may" be a little worse than before. The old "mechanic" said i could try and slightly over tourqe the bolts a little, or have the head re-milled (sounds very $$$). His dumb ass didnt replace the head gasket when he was in there replacing the cam chain, so a new head gasket may solve the problem as well.

Found a new shop in town recommended by some bikers i saw at a bar... D3 Customs of Grand Rapids, MI. http://www.facebook.com/pages/D3-Customs-LLC/122230924519596
seems like a promising shop and more certified than guy running a shop out of his house. When i get some money togeather, i will give them a call and have an assesment done of the bike. I would love for a quality shop just to take a look and help me plan out my slow, and perferrably low cost, restoration.

My latest purchase is some Tungsten Carbide Cutters so i can try again at getting the stuck carbide extractor bit out of the cam chain locking bolt (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=active&q=cutter+carbide&cid=2887176140465592154#p)

Looks like i might be able to use my dremel and very carefully cut around the carbide bit to remove it, but we will see.....

Since my bike is back in my hands and rideable, i am a happy camper for the moment. My plan is to try and keep her going as well as possible for the rest of the michigan sumer (approx. 3 more months), and then try and tackle the head gasket leak over winter.

One thing I am always learning with this bike is that "patience is a virtue".

 

[Laughter13]

Dont think i have posted any pics of Rose since all the cleaning/detailing, paint, and a few new bits here and there. For those you dont want to read all the way back, when i purchased the bike the previous owner had black primed most everything and never painted it. The tank had been dented in for the knee bumps, but they were rough at best. I cleaned it up pretty nice for my first ever paint job, so next steps are to begin to clean up all the paint on the engine and touch up the rest of the bike.


And from my previous post, i will be trying again to remove the carbide bit stuck in my cam chain tensioner locking bolt... wish me luck!!!

 

[Laughter13]

and a couple more...