Need to get bike ready for Race all the way around Lake Erie in June.

randp

New Member
Every year, in June, we have a non stop "Race" all the way around lake Erie. 630 Miles, not stop, chin on the tank...

But... 250cc (one carb, 30 yrs old) or smaller size limit. Bike 200 CC and under are broke down in classes, but basically unlimited in modifications. (250CC limited to factory Single carb bikes, no race bikes) It is open to everyone, and is a charity event, to raise money for Burned children.

So, I have been running the hell out of my 1975 CB200T. It now have 13,000 miles on it, with a LOT of that spent WFO for HOURS at a time (I have 4.5 gallon tank)

Anyway. I am thinking I should at least open up then engine, freshen up a bit and make sure it ready for another 12 hours at over 9000 rpm... New cam chain, new rings, etc... and I am thinking, it would be nice to get a little more power out of it. (sometimes it struggles at 60 -65 mph)

What I am reading is: New cam, new pistons? Bigger carbs? Any Ideas? Any suggested places to have machine work done?

It has a HD Clutch (305 Clutch springs) , Electronic ignition, new coils, fresh stock carbs, Litium battery, O ring chain, and a few other things.

Anyone interested in a real race, of real men and women, on small bikes, check it out:
www.LakeErieLoop.org or on Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/groups/1472143123055957/
 
This sounds like a pretty cool race. I used to work with someone that was going to run this event. Not sure if it ever happened or not.
Sounds like you have a good plan, but why go with larger carbs? I'm sure that would decrease fuel mileage.
Good luck.
 
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Yeah sounds fun but your post makes no sense to me . . You have a 200 cc engine that spins to 9,000 rpm but it has trouble going 60 mph . . The math just doesn't add up unless you changed the gearing, and if the rods and pistons are stock, it might hurl if you try to spin it a lot higher.


CAMS

Look at page 20 under your model in the link below and you will see two different cams, however, they make several more that they don't list . . If you run stock compression, I would NOT get the bigger cam because it will be a pig everywhere, however, if you run at least 10.5:1, i would run a bigger cam . . the first cam they list is very good for tight corners but not great for top end, and since you will be at wot or close to it all the time, you are better off with a cam that is designed more specifically for that app, UNLESS, yo ride the bike on the street also, in which case, you want a cam that is more inbetween.

They use your cam and the cost is $310.00 . . If your cam bearing journals are worn, ask them if they can fix those also.

http://www.megacyclecams.com/catalog/catalog_optimized.pdf

Here's one of the cams they don't show online.

P/N 135x10 ... lift 288 . . dur @ .020" 276 . . @ .040" 251 . . lsa 105


PISTONS AND COMPRESSION VS CAMS

Compression is your friend . . This is an area that is frequently overlooked by almost everyone from what I have seen, and it is a fairly complicated one, so I will make it as simple as I can . . In general, the more compression an engine has, the more power it will have EVERYWHERE, therefore, you should ALWAYS run as much compression as you can for the octane gas you are using.

In general, the bigger the cam, the LOWER the compression will be . . This is caused by the valve timing . . If you put a big cam in low compression engine, it will be a P I G, especially in the lower rpm range.

The lighter the pistons are, the faster and farther it will rev if all else remains the same.

In your case, you can have around 10.5:1 compression if you run their street cam using 93 octane or higher . . If you use race gas or E85, I would go to 11.5:1.

If you run their race cam, you can go to 11.0:1 with 93 and 12.0:1 with race gas or probably 12.5:1 with E85.

RINGS - Ask them if they can make the rings thinner than stock with a plasma coated top ring and napier or reverse twist second ring . . This will reduce friction which will increase rpm and reduce heat.

PISTON PIN - Ask if they can make a tapered ones . . This will be lighter

PISTON WEIGHT - Have them make it shorter and lighter than stock.

PISTON COATING - Ask it they can put a coating on it . . This will reduce friction.

ARIAS can make forged pistons in 4032 or 2618 material for only $200.00 each . . The minimum is 2 pistons . . it will take 4 weeks.

http://www.ariaspistons.com/contact.asp


PISTON TO CYLINDER HEIGHT

The outer edge of the pistons should come perfectly even with the top of the cylinder but often they don't because of production tolerances . . If you have pistons made, measure the distance from the top of the piston to the top of the cylinder and give that to them and they will lower the piston in that amount for no extra charge.


VALVE SPRINGS

R&D brand p/n 252H from Megacycle if you run any cam bigger than their street one . . You can also run these with their street cam for added insurance if you want . . They come with titanium retainers . . $250.00.


ROCKER ARMS

You should have them hard weld your arms if you run the valve spring kit . . Also, unless yours look like new, you need new ones or hard welded ones anyway because the old ones will quickly damage your new cam . . $75.00 each


CAMSHAFT OILING

These have a weak oiling system to the cam especially on the left [points] side, and it is my belief that damage caused to both bearings is due to the use of cheap oil or oil with low levels of ZDDP and/or infrequent oil changes and a delay in oil to the cam caused by oil draining back into the pump after the engine is turned off.

There are several mods to reduce this problem . . one is to use 175 cam holders and add an oiling hole to the case and o ring around the bolt.


CYLINDER HEAD

Get a mild port job/blend on your cylinder head and send the intake boots with it . . It needs a LOT of MINOR work in several areas, but does not need a full blown 5 axis CNC type job . . The exhaust has a bulge in it that can be reduced a little to open the port some which will help a lot but it doesn't need much . . The intake tract has some irregularities which should be smoothed, and the area around the valve guides and the guides themselves can made smaller with an improved shape . . The area where the bottom of the valve seat meets the head often has a small lip which can be smoothed and the seats can have a 3 to 5 angle cut and the intake valve can be be "back cut".


CAM CHAIN

Racing chain or DID brand.


EXHAUST

Get decent exhaust if yours is stock . . If the exhaust is not made incorrectly, it will not rev as much as it should . . I have seen a modified 200 rev to 11,000 rpm sing stock CL175 pipes and no muffler.


CARBURETORS

Standard Mikuni carbs are common . . 22 mm should do for your app, but I would run carbs with an accelerator pump if you also run it on the street . . You will likely need bigger intake boots for the 22 mm carbs but measure he inside of your boot.

I would be tempted to find some used cb160 carbs because they are 22 mm and also see if the intake boots fit . . The Honda carbs use a different needle jet and will be easier for you to tune.

The 175 had 20 mm carbs which are still better than what you have.


CARBURETOR ADAPTER

If I have this right, the inside of the carburetor adapter is slightly bigger than a 20 mm carb, which means you can put 22 mm carbs on it, and at the worst case, you would need to enlarge the hole in that end of the boot just a little.

I think the intake port in the head is slightly larger than 20 mm, so this would not need to be enlarged to use 22's, however, there is often a slight mismatch between the carb boot and the head, so if the head blocks any on the the hole in the boot, see if slotting the holes in the boot allows you to move it enough so you can no longer see the face of the port in the head with the boot on it . . If part of the port in the head still blocks the hole in the boot, the entrance of the port in the head should be ground to match the boot.


CAM GEAR

Get an adjustable one for fine tuning.

P/N 150 or 155 . . email to find out what the difference is.

http://www.cappellinimoto.it/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=4&Itemid=11&lang=en


IGNITION TIMING

Match the ignition curve to the engine.


SPARK PLUG

Run a spark plug that is 1 step colder than stock.


ENGINE OIL

High quality shear free high zinc synthetic 10w-30 or 10w-40 or 5w-40 engine oil.

Here's two options.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=7&id_subcateg=95&id_products=599

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=7&id_subcateg=95&id_products=597


OIL COOLER

Get one.


GEAR RATIO, RPM, MPH

If your gearing is 15-35 and you have a 3.00x18 tire that is 24.5" tall, your speed in 5th gear at 9,000 rpm has to be 75 mph . . If you build it so it will rev to 10,000 rpm in 1st gear, it will rev to around 9500 in 5th gear which would be 79.5 mph.

If you go with the race cam instead of the street cam, you can just put a 1 tooth smaller counter shaft sprocket on it for around town and it will have decent bottom end power again.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/gear-speed.php



WEIGHT REDUCTION

RIMS -Aluminum.

CHAIN & SPROCKETS - Possibly an aluminum rear if you need to change it anyway, otherwise, switch to a lightweight 428 size set . . No, it will not break.

FENDERS - Fiberglass or plastic etc.

KICK STARTER - Try to find an aluminum one that will fit.

STARTER MOTOR - Remove it and buy the plug below to cap off the hole . . P/N 163 . . Also remove the starter chain, the starter gear and the one way clutch on the back of the stator . . This will not only remove maybe 10 lbs, it will also increase the engines performance by removing rotating mass from the crankshaft.

http://www.cappellinimoto.it/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=4&Itemid=11&lang=en

ALUMINUM RIMS ..................... - 5 lbs ?
ALUMINUM KICKSTARTER ......... - 2 lbs ?
LIGHTER FENDERS ................... - 4 lbs ?
LIGHTER DRIVE CHAIN ............. - 2 lbs ?
REMOVE STARTER ASSY .......... - 10 lbs ?
TOTAL ................................... - 23 lbs ?

OIL COOLER & ADDITIONAL OIL .+ 2 lbs
FORK BRACE ........................... + 1 lbs ?
MINI FAIRING ........................ + 3 lbs ?
TOTAL ...................................... 16 lbs of weight removed


TIRES

If you are not pushing hard in turns and curves, the skinnier and the stiffer the better with air pressure on the high end . . You will easily gain a couple mph with the right tires and high air pressure.


STABILITY

Going 80 is a LOT different than going 60, so I would run a fork brace and stiff suspension and possibly lower the rear a little if there aren't many low speed areas.


MINI FAIRING

This will increase your top speed by a couple mph and will keep your hair looking nice too!

https://www.google.com/search?q=honda+cb200+cafe+fairing+images&biw=1093&bih=506&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkvd6uk-zJAhXGbj4KHXqLDd0QsAQIGw#imgrc=OG8jBUq5wc-RHM%3A


EXPECTED PERFORMANCE

You should hit at least 80 mph with the above setup if you use one of a race version of Megacyclesa cams. .


CAM CHAIN ROLLER

The roller in the bottom of the photo takes a beating and can be replaced with a metal one for around $100.00

P/N 154

http://www.cappellinimoto.it/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=4&Itemid=11&lang=en

CB160+Cam+chain+Tensioner+upgrade+4.jpg


CB160+Cam+chain+Tensioner+upgrade+6.jpg



c84174cc8dfbb55f59038438f28ed74d.jpg
 
13k miles is nothing at all.
See no reason to open a motor with little plan and even less reason.

This is a street bike and street even.
10% more power (even if that is possible) is of zero help if the goal is to run the even.

Make the bike run as good as it can stock before chasing anything else.
the CB200 is not really a performance bike anyway.

The event is about reliably. Don't add variables that you might not be able to deal with.
 
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the bike will be 110% reliable using the options i suggested providing they are performed correctly and good oil is used, and it will increase power by at least 20% and will actually be more like 30% i guarantee it . . there is nothing exotic or excessive on my list, and all those parts and mods have been proven to be reliable.

he goes a maximum of 65 mph now and 80 mph is a much more than a 10% increase in speed, however, there obviously is a prob since it only goes 65 so yeah, i agree that it would be helpful to try and determine why that is first and maybe he has, we shall see.

one way to do that is to take a compression test . . if it is around 130 or less, that is a big part of the reason.
 
I just have an issue with someone that has not been able to make a stock thing work correctly wanting to "build" a modified one.

Yeah there are ways to improve the performance. Some of the 160/175 guys are going fairly fast.
 
surffly said:
I just have an issue with someone that has not been able to make a stock thing work correctly wanting to "build" a modified one.

oh i certainly understand and i agree but until he gets back to us and tells us what he has done, we won't know for sure.

i know if his exhaust is home made/pieced together, it might not rev if the length is incorrect . . lots of guys make their own exhaust up and their bike doesn't go any faster, but because it is much louder, they think it does, lol.

anyway, if he wants to go 80 mph, all the tuning in the world on a stock bike won't get it there so he needs to take it apart anyway if that's the case.
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here ya go . . cb 200 straight pipes . . 16.5 rear wheel hp @ 11,000 rpm . . 0 to 80 mph in 34 seconds . . easy deal...not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgAceB_7aeo
 
Ah... The Lake Erie Loop. I've wanted to run this for years. Being a grown up always fucks that up lol...

Anyhow, a member here ran the Loop on a cb 200 a few years back. Was winning it too until his tank spring a leak. Search around a bit. His tech heavy thread is still around somewhere.
 
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Can you post a few photos of your bike?


heres a set of 22 mm 160 carbs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/262164037496?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82


heres a set of 20 mm 175 carbs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/262164038049?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82
 
Wow barnett468, thank you for the time it took to type that! LOTS of good advice.

1st, I think the bike is running great. I actually bought a CB200T in 1975 New, and flat ground, 65 mph was about it. You are correct about the gearing. it technically red lines close to 80, but that will only happen down hill, with a tail wind, or drafting.

I lost a chain last years in Erie PA, (it was on its 2nd loop, and you will be amazed at how much a stock chain will stretch in 700 miles WOT. I think it was slapping the guard, and the C Clip came out.

It now has O ring, riveted chain.

New tires, cleaned up stock rims, rubbers and tubes. New brakes front and rear (yes, cable front) New Lithium battery, New coils, New Electronic ignition, carbs rebuilt, new carb boots. AUX led brake light. New "performance" Clutch, with Thicker 305 Springs (it tended to slip when it gets real hot) Really built for durability.

Stock intake, stock mufflers, Stock stock.

Add ons include a Drink holder, small windshield, small "pocket" above the headlight (I Pass, Snacks, cell phone, etc) Alaskan leather seat cover, Highway pegs, Rear pegs moved back a foot, 2 gallon Aux fuel tank, Phone charger port, Tank bag with maps, and teo small saddle bags (extra oil, quart of emergency gas, etc)
 

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As for carbs, I own 3 CB200Ts, and Sharp CB160, and a CL175. If I had to I ocudl rob the carbs off the CB160 (but would rather not). the CL175 is not running right now, so I could pull the carbs off Her.

I know back in 1979, I sold my CB200 to my brother, and at something just past 10,000 miles, I think the cam chain broke (or something with the cam chain).

I now am (imagining?) that I hear chain noise from mine, and I do not want a failure.

Not sure how far I want to go with this, I got some great ideas. Money is really not so much a issue as time. I almost just need to send a engine someplace and have it done. I pulled my CL450 down in March, and JUST got it back together 2 weeks ago (summer is time to RIDE!)

But, just yesterday, I picked up a BEAUTIFUL 1965 CA305 Honda (ran when parked)... and I have Two Honda 350's I want to get going (one CB, one CL) . The CB160 needs a battery, The GL500 is leaking fuel from someplace, and the kick start on my CB350 Four is not engaging...
 
randp said:
Wow barnett468, thank you for the time it took to type that! LOTS of good advice.

As for carbs, I own 3 CB200Ts, and Sharp CB160, and a CL175. If I had to I ocudl rob the carbs off the CB160 (but would rather not). the CL175 is not running right now, so I could pull the carbs off Her.

I know back in 1979, I sold my CB200 to my brother, and at something just past 10,000 miles, I think the cam chain broke (or something with the cam chain).

I now am (imagining?) that I hear chain noise from mine, and I do not want a failure.

Not sure how far I want to go with this, I got some great ideas. Money is really not so much a issue as time. I almost just need to send a engine someplace and have it done. I pulled my CL450 down in March, and JUST got it back together 2 weeks ago (summer is time to RIDE!)

But, just yesterday, I picked up a BEAUTIFUL 1965 CA305 Honda (ran when parked)... and I have Two Honda 350's I want to get going (one CB, one CL) . The CB160 needs a battery, The GL500 is leaking fuel from someplace, and the kick start on my CB350 Four is not engaging...

no prob, you're welcome, hope some of the info will be helpful to you.

EXACTLY what oil are you using?

heres a minimum list to consider if you take the top end off.

obviously check the bore and if it is worn, bore it out.

definitely get the metal cam gear

get a new high quality chain . . the rivet type is the most secure but if others have a recommendation for a good chain then consider that.

rob the carbs off the 175 then, however, if your not poor, just buy the 22 m 160 carbs i posted, otherwise you are wasting your time trying to increase speed with the stock carbs, its really that simple . . imagine putting a straw i your mouth and trying to breathe thru that while running as fast as you can . . this is the EXACT same affect the carbs have on that particular engine . . the carbs will fit your intake adapters/boots.

match the intake to the head so you can not see any of the head in the path of the airflow . . this can usually be done by modifying the bolt holes in the intake boot slightly but the head itself may also need a little grinding.

carefully inspect the cam ends and cam bearings . . if they are scored, they will only get worse and will fail at some UNKNOWN point in time.

if they are perfect, or if you buy new ones etc, i would send the cam, bearings, and rockers out to the site below to have them coated . . i would also send the pistons there too . . its stupidly cheap for the benefit but they have a $150.00 minimum which will do most of your engine.

http://www.appliedtungstenite.com/

i would increase the compression a hair if you are using 93 octane or higher.

enlarge the ex port a little where it squeezes down inside the port . . this is best done by a porting shop and might cost $100.00, but if its already there and money isn't a big concern, then have them blend the seats and guides.

if you dont mind it loud, remove your baffles and jet it properly [richer] and do a top speed test . . you may or may not gain top end but its a simple test to do.
 
I didn't do the race, but I ride the loop counterclockwise starting in Cleveland, OH about 5 years ago on an XR250. I had one extremely sore ass but it was a good time. The wind coming west across Ontario was insane though, but I was riding by the lake. Border crossing at Niagara was a piece of cake; Detroit was an hour and a half full search and questioning. I'd do it again.
 
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