Newbness Screwed up Timing! Stumped! Please Help!

[iSack1L]

???

Gents,

I was alerted that the "pinking" I was experiencing could be due to timing that was overadvanced. I have attempted to time the bike with a test lamp, etc. I did not find my manual all that helpful, so I am slightly at a loss. The bike was running so-so before I did this. The only problems were the "pinking" and one cylinder did not want to fire at idle so I had to keep some revs on at stop lights, etc. After I "messed with" the timing the other day, the bike did not seem to have the power it did before, and died on me twice. Upon both stalls, the right side fuel filter was dry when it usually has a little fuel in it. I had to fiddle with the hose to suck some fuel in and it started up again. But like I said, none of this happened before I "set" the timing. Could the two be related? Additionally, I know that the bike has definitely been running rich by the look of the plugs. Here's the timing "procedure" and other info.

Bike: 72 CB350 K4

1. Grounded test lamp to negative ground of battery and the other clip to the left point to begin.
2. Removed left plug and covered the plug hole with finger.
3. turned engine over until i felt upward compression on my finger
4. turned to the "LF" mark and held it. adjusted the entire point plate so that the lamp would light just at that mark
5. Hooked alligator clip to right point and moved the engine to hit the "F" mark
6. Adjusted gap on left point until it would light just at the "F'" mark.
7. Sealed everything back up.


Concerns....Because I'm still getting into this, I don't have a great grasp on this timing concept yet. I know it takes a few tries. Here are some of my concerns, simple though they may be.

1. after setting the left point at the LF mark, do i have to repeat the finger in the hole test on the other cylinder to feel compression or do i just turn the wheel to the F mark. Essentially, does the engine need a whole nother rotation before setting the F mark.

2. The test light would stay on for a bit after passing the LF mark before it would shut off. Is that normal?

3. Should one point be completely closed when the other is completely open?

4. How are the fuel and power issues I experienced after doing this related to the timing adjustment.


Like I said guys, I appreciate the understanding. I'm no pro. I definitely respect and appreciate any input you may have. I'm sure my symptoms mean more to someone on here than they do to me. If anyone can post a link to an online guide that would be helpful too. Does it look like i need new points/condensor or coils? I can't really afford to go with the electric ignition right now, unfortunately. I'd like to get the timing down so I can get the Carbs synced up. If you need other info, just give me a yell. Thanks all.

 

[Big R]

Isaac, are you still in Harrisburg? Some of us will be around Beaver tomorrow FYI.

To check the timing, do it by holding a plug to the engine case. It should spark at the timing marks. What grade gasoline are you running? Just curious. The running rich shouldnt be connected to the timing. Or at least it would be rich on both cylinders.

Speaking of running rich, it sounds like you need to change your fuel filter (should be running super lean with a clogged filter though)

 

[iSack1L]

Unfortunately I'm back at PSU now. That sucks. So I'll definitely grab some new filters. Any recommendations? Also, what is protocol if I'm not getting a spark? Like i said, all new to me. My concerns above are evidence of that! LOL

 

[Big R]

Well, dont trust the tiny ones from denniskirk.com. I bought one from Autozone for lawnmowers but still didnt trust it after trying to blow air through it (with my mouth, not a compressor). I ended up at Trader Horn and got a large Fram filter for cars.

Are you not getting spark, or just concerned? Check the spark at the plugs first, then the points, and work your way up through the electrical system.

Im heading to bed now but will check this thread asap in the morning.

 

[magnang]

Normally you adjust the gap first before you even try timing it. As the points wear, the gap increases meaning your dwell angle gets smaller. The points assembly grounds out the coils. The dwell is basically the time the coil is grounded out to build a charge. When the points open, the coil has built a ton of voltage and should jump your sparkplug gap to get to ground.

Your gap should be .012 - .016 (http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/DataTable.html). First clean the points with contact cleaner and some emery cloth, then gap them.

Once the gap is set, take the alternator cover off and one sparkplug. Ground the base against the engine and turn the motor over with a wrench. It should fire when the appropriate mark lines up. If not, normally you can rotate the points assembly untill it does.

Make sure the advance mechanism moves freely as well.

Cheers,

Guy

 

[iSack1L]

Big Rich,

My filters are pretty large as well and glass so I can see in. If I squeeze the fuel line I can see compression in the filter b/c it moves the filter screen so I'm not thinking that it is clogged, but I guess even a little clog could screw things up. But, can you explain what you mean by checking the spark at the plugs first and then moving up through the electrical system?


magnang,
I thought I had gapped them properly. Should they both be gapped at the same time so that both are open simultaneously and both gaps are within spec? Or should one be gapped while the other is closed and visa versa? Also when I turn the motor over, I was wondering if after I hit the LF mark on the compression stroke, do i have to turn it another 360 degress before I hit the F mark or should it spark at the F mark on the same turn as the original LF mark? If that makes sense?


If no spark is occuring, is this a coils problem? I'm thinking I may be able to come into possession of some new coils.

 

[Big R]

Normally a clogged filter will be noticed at upper rpms - thats when it needs to flow the most gas.

Like it was stated earlier, pull the plug and place the head of it on the engine. Spin the crank by hand and look for it to spark at the proper timing mark. If you dont have any spark at all, then check for spark at the points. When the points are closed (and with the ignition on) push them open manually with a small screwdriver a couple times. Should get a spark there.

When you say PSU, is that the main campus?

 

[magnang]

Big Rich,

My filters are pretty large as well and glass so I can see in. If I squeeze the fuel line I can see compression in the filter b/c it moves the filter screen so I'm not thinking that it is clogged, but I guess even a little clog could screw things up. But, can you explain what you mean by checking the spark at the plugs first and then moving up through the electrical system?


magnang,
I thought I had gapped them properly. Should they both be gapped at the same time so that both are open simultaneously and both gaps are within spec? Or should one be gapped while the other is closed and visa versa? Also when I turn the motor over, I was wondering if after I hit the LF mark on the compression stroke, do i have to turn it another 360 degress before I hit the F mark or should it spark at the F mark on the same turn as the original LF mark? If that makes sense?


If no spark is occuring, is this a coils problem? I'm thinking I may be able to come into possession of some new coils.

To gap, basically watch the points open. You set the gap when they are open the furthest in their travel. They won't both open at the same time (should be 180 degree difference at the crank, making it a 90 difference at the camshaft??), so turn the engine over untill one point is fully open, set the gap to .012, then check the other. Then you rotate the assemblies to put the spark on the mark. If the contacts don't close evenly, or are badly pitted, replace the points

In theory, the gap will increase as the points wear. Once your timing is good at .012, it will shift gradually with wear and tear. Next time you do the points, if you gap them to .012, your timing should come right back to where you set it.

Resetting the timing on a 72 CB350

 

[iSack1L]

Normally a clogged filter will be noticed at upper rpms - thats when it needs to flow the most gas.

Like it was stated earlier, pull the plug and place the head of it on the engine. Spin the crank by hand and look for it to spark at the proper timing mark. If you dont have any spark at all, then check for spark at the points. When the points are closed (and with the ignition on) push them open manually with a small screwdriver a couple times. Should get a spark there.

When you say PSU, is that the main campus?

Yup. Law school in State College. I'm going to have to fight with the wife a bit to get some time away to dick around with the bike some more and test some of these theories ahah. Newlywed thing. You know.

 

[iSack1L]

To gap, basically watch the points open. You set the gap when they are open the furthest in their travel. They won't both open at the same time (should be 180 degree difference at the crank, making it a 90 difference at the camshaft??), so turn the engine over untill one point is fully open, set the gap to .012, then check the other. Then you rotate the assemblies to put the spark on the mark. If the contacts don't close evenly, or are badly pitted, replace the points

In theory, the gap will increase as the points wear. Once your timing is good at .012, it will shift gradually with wear and tear. Next time you do the points, if you gap them to .012, your timing should come right back to where you set it.

Resetting the timing on a 72 CB350

If it is so out of wack that when I turn the engine over to open one point to gap it that the other is open as well, should I simply close the other fully and then turn the engine 180 to open it up to spec? Also, how big of a spark should I see. I need to pick up some new plugs b/c mine are pretty much crap at this point.

What is your recommendation on using a test light magnang?

 

[Big R]

If it is so out of wack that when I turn the engine over to open one point to gap it that the other is open as well, should I simply close the other fully and then turn the engine 180 to open it up to spec? Also, how big of a spark should I see.

Oh yeah, your points need adjusted. Id like to say that left point is for left cylinder, but I dont have 2 points. Find out which point is for which cylinder, and adjust accordingly.

Basically any spark at the plug will ignite gas, but the bigger the better. For testing purposes, you can just get some 400 grit paper and clean up the electrode. But get new plugs when you go to run the engine.

 

[magnang]

If it is so out of wack that when I turn the engine over to open one point to gap it that the other is open as well, should I simply close the other fully and then turn the engine 180 to open it up to spec? Also, how big of a spark should I see. I need to pick up some new plugs b/c mine are pretty much crap at this point.

What is your recommendation on using a test light magnang?

I never use the light,

As for both points opening, just watch the lobe on the cam, you'll see it's got a longer part that drives the lever for the points. Set the gap when the middle of the lobe is in on the actuator for each set of points. It's possible that both will be open at one point, not a big deal. Just do one at the time, rotate the engine, gap the other one.

Then just take the plug out, attach the wire and ground the base of it to the engine. That way you can actually see the spark and you'll know that everything else is working. Your left sparkplug should fire when LF is on the mark. If not, move the points assembly around untill it does (should be 2 screws for this).


Same thing with the other cylinder. The video explains it well.. The find out which points set is what cylinder, trace the wire to the points back to the coil.

If you get no spark at all, your looking at some quality time with your multimeter ;D Post back here and you'll get some help


Cheers,

Guy

 

[iSack1L]

Thanks for all the suggestions. the few times I tried using the spark method of testing (before I started this thread), I didn't get a spark. But I was lighting the lamp when I used the test lamp. I was thinking that maybe it was just the condition of the plugs. I'll have to tinker with it a bit more, but won't have time until later this week unfortunately. I have some stupid crazy deadlines to meet this week. In the meantime, would anyone suggest/recommend simply starting all over again with new points, new condensor and maybe coils? Or should I fiddle with what I got a bit more first?

Isaac

 

[iSack1L]

Re: Newbness Screwed up Timing! (Now with Coil Discussion)

Could someone recommend the best aftermarket coils to use that would be affordable. I'd like to pursue the most plug-and-play type of option if possible. I know a few people have used the coils from MikesXS with some success. Also, I've seen a few people referencing using Bosch Blue Coils. I was hoping to find something that fit with minimal modding (maybe just fabbing some kind of simple bracket). Let me know if you have suggestions. I already ordered a new condensor and points from Dime City and I just figured I'd go the route of replacing the coils/wires/caps/plugs as well. Hope somebody can give me some info on the simplest route. Thanks Gents!



Isaac

 

[kingofthenuggets]

Hey,

I am really in the same boat as you and so far I have found that everything works it just isn't working correctly!! The big thing here is spark. If you can get spark then the coils/ condensor/ points/ plugs/ plug caps are operable. If you want a way to check your coils without a multilmeter simply attach test leads to your positive terminal on your coil to the battery positive, another to the neg terminal on the coil and ground to the engine. Pull out your plug and rest it on the head of your engine. Now if you release the grounded negative wire from the engine your plug should spark. Your plug, plug cap, condensor, and coil are good to go. I am currently stuck on the timing as well.

Through some research I have found that the cylinders need to be on the compression stroke and spark on the LF or RF timing mark for the corresponding cylinders. The LT and RT marks are for Top Dead Center of the piston for the cylinder and the spark needs to fire just before, hence the different marks of LF and LT or RF and RT.

Simply said you need three things to run:

1 Compression
2 Spark
3 Air/ Fuel mixture

I wouldn't get new coils unless you are certain the current ones are bad, too expensive to replace working coils. Also, if you spark on the wrong stroke then it just won't run. Frustrating work but imagine the joy you will feel when it is running right!

 

[djelliott]

F and LF are for points gap adjustment. T and LT are for timing. It helps to kill a chicken while chanting and spitting Rum all over your bike before you start. ;D

 

[kingofthenuggets]

F and LF are for points gap adjustment. T and LT are for timing. It helps to kill a chicken while chanting and spitting Rum all over your bike before you start. ;D

Soooo that is what was missing ... will make sure to bring the Captain Morgan with me the next time I attempt this then.