Oil-Mageddon...

I don't really know where to begin to express my discontent about this situation.

I for one am the guy who would forego a few comforts in order to prevent un-necessary horrors to ou environment. I personally cannot take the side that no matter what, Earth will win, blah blah blah, because the price is to hefty to pay in order for it to get to that point. We are quite capable of destroying our environment beyond recognition. I don't care what devices are in place to secure the relative safety of an operation such as drilling in the ocean, etc. etc., there WILL be fuck ups constantly. The fact that this is happening on a relatively regular basis is frightening. How many times will it take for us to screw up before what we do by our own hands becomes irreparable?

We do have creature comforts, and we are accustomed to living a certain way in our heated homes with our flushing toilets with our refrigerated foods coming out to cook for ourselves in haste. This is not something we have earned nor deserved. For thousands of years, humanity existed without the assumption that "we are better than that". The act of drilling in the ocean for oil is proof positive that we believe in our dominance over our surroundings. We do dominate, but at the same time we shoot ourselves in the foot whilst trying to run a marathon. I believe that the repercussions of our actions haven't had the time to present themselves in full. I want to puke every time I see photos of mountain top removal, clear cutting, strip mining, oil drilling, and on and on because it is forever altering our landscape in order to provide those "comforts of life" that we have come to love so much. I wholeheartedly believe that we are animals quite capable of coexistence with the other species on this earth. Death for sustenance is one thing, but death due to mistake, or purposeful destruction is ludicrous. We should be striving daily to break free of the binds of antiquated energy production and raw material collection and find something that not only works as well, but BETTER than its predecessor.

DCWP, I have worked several months on the oil rigs as a staff paramedic. We would fly in and stay for 2 week stints, and then come home for a week to begin again. I had to quit because of who was paying me. Most of us are employed by someone else, and are making them money. Some of them only make enough to make a few men rich, while the normal worker makes an honest living. I chose to leave because I didn't want to be paid my someone who was morally disturbing me. I generally try to produce my own firewood and lumber from the lumber mill at my grandpas house for the same reason. I drive economy vehicles, and am trying very hard to get into diesel powered transportation so that I can recycle the best I can. I am not patting myself on the back....a quote sums it up:

"I'm not a shame to admit, I'm just a slave to the shit as much as anybody, but I'm not afraid of it"

My problem with big oil corporation is that it is single handedly responsible for more negligent activity than any other corporation, and to top it all off they are mainly profit. You don't see turn around from oil companies other than expansion. They don't contribute to environmental causes to help better things, but they are always (The 2nd largest as a matter of fact) contributing to political endeavors. This disturbs me beyond anything at all. The law makers are funded by the oil companies.

BP is only one of several. Until just a few years ago, they had rigs all over alaska that leaked for over 10 years. The environmental impact will never be resolved, because the area never thaws completely, the oil just continues to seep into neighboring bodies of water....endlessly. But they aren't held accountable. Fining them money is just like pissing in the ocean. It doesn't phase them at all. And it doesn't correct the mistakes.

The recent gulf spill was caused by not activating a blow out preventer which is a valve that controls over surging oil pressure. Sure you could blame it on the man who is responsible for not shutting it off, but in reality, it IS the oil company's fault for not having a back up plan for their back up plan. This is something that we historically know is serious, yet our advancements in containment seem less than favorable.

I am sorry for ranting to you guys, and I really don't mean to step on anyone's toes, but until we are willing to place blame on ourselves for our demands and the constant and increasing consumption of natural resources, we'll never stop. We have to recognize a need for change before we can change anything. It is all a matter of perception and willingness to recognize the cause. It is a sad state of affairs that we have gotten ourselves into, and unfortunately, other living things will suffer just as much as we will. It must be quite an inconvenience to lose your life.

"Now the ball is in our court, while we sit and watch passively,
The face of the earth changes drastically, after we,
Clear space at this rate for strip malls and factories,
We risk take a crew fate at a pace beyond gradually,
No more crops for us to harvest and feed,
Self-sufficiency replaced by clone-copy written seeds,
Now ask yourself, how can we be free,
When the water that we drink is owned by some company,

I hear the weep up the streets, and cries up in the skies,
The weakness is disguised with deceitful lies,
Well we all eat to survive, and sleep through our lives,
Repeat in for high, all shit and no pride,
Never speak of our lie, let the fear fortify,
My insides are dying, trying to fit in the design,
I'm reminded daily, of a world gone crazy,
Guns mean safety for orphan babies,
Ignore the distortion you're forced to perceive and believe,
What supercedes is love, but who agrees?"
 
You certainly aren't stepping on my toes. My point was that the earth itself may survive what we throw at it, but there is a vast gulf (yeah, I made a pun in a serious comment) between total planetary destruction and a world that I actually want to live in.

Dan
 
dcwp said:
You certainly aren't stepping on my toes. My point was that the earth itself may survive what we throw at it, but there is a vast gulf (yeah, I made a pun in a serious comment) between total planetary destruction and a world that I actually want to live in.

Dan
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I understand completely. I just want to see us use these intelligent minds to come up with something so much less destructive. I'm just irritable about the whole thing in general.
 
I agree with pretty much everything Kiley said. Being here on the coast for the past ten years and never very far away for my whole life, my family and I are extra sensitive to environmental concerns. We see dolphin almost every day. We see manatees occaisionally. We see sharks and rays and crabs and alligators and all sorts of great marine life. My kids love it. My wife and I love it. I'd hate to see these things go away due to the negligence and greed of big corporations. And yes it was negligence. The system that failed and caused the oil to spew onto the rig which later ignited had no backup. No redundancy. Why? I'm sure because it was cheaper.

I have friends who work offshore. I have one who is on a rig in the vicinity of the deep water horizon. When I heard about the explosion and the missing men, I was sick to my stomach for days. This is just a tragedy, 11 men dead 17 missing. Two sea turtles washed up today in Mississippi. The oil still hasn't made landfall here. Currents are keeping it pushed back for now. With the amount of oil out there it's only a matter of time. We've had volunteers flooding into the area from across the country. I hope it will be enough.
edit: I'm waiting for Twisted to chime in here... he's been a dive instructor here for years and has to be even more upset about this than I am...
 
Deviant1 said:
edit: I'm waiting for Twisted to chime in here... he's been a dive instructor here for years and has to be even more upset about this than I am...
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That's another reason it irks me. i dive as well.
 
Oil Megeddon is so boring. I'm going with "Oil Leak-a-thon 2010"

Too bad it they couldn't funnel all of it to Galveston it's already disgusting and so close to BP's Texas City refinery.
 
the only thing I could think of when I heard of this is how "renewables are so much more expensive and need subsidies", which is the whole excuse that seems to be used to kill those projects. when things like this happen, it always makes me think of the real cost of fossil fuels, that aren't included in the price at the pump or the electric meter, I heard someone on NPR who made a good point, that if one of the oil rigs in the gulf goes down, it's a huge disaster, but if EVERY wind turbine in the country crashed, there would be no pollution whatsoever... not to sound high and mighty either, I get pissed off when gas gets high like everyone else, but I'd be willing to pay more for energy and fuel if I knew it was being made in a way that wasn't going to destroy the planet
 
rockcitycafe said:
the only thing I could think of when I heard of this is how "renewables are so much more expensive and need subsidies", which is the whole excuse that seems to be used to kill those projects. when things like this happen, it always makes me think of the real cost of fossil fuels, that aren't included in the price at the pump or the electric meter, I heard someone on NPR who made a good point, that if one of the oil rigs in the gulf goes down, it's a huge disaster, but if EVERY wind turbine in the country crashed, there would be no pollution whatsoever... not to sound high and mighty either, I get pissed off when gas gets high like everyone else, but I'd be willing to pay more for energy and fuel if I knew it was being made in a way that wasn't going to destroy the planet
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Amen.
 
I can't begin to tell you guys how much I appreciate your level headed thoughts and comments in all this. A forum such as DTT is truly rare. I frequent another forum where some members are already cracking hair brined ideas about a terrorist attack and yadda yadda. I made one passing comment about how Fox News would be the first to pick up and run with this guys theory and all posts were deleted and the thread locked. I've really enjoyed reading your insights on this tragedy. I too am miffed about the environmental impact we're about to see unfold. We're coming up on mating season in the gulf for Whale sharks. I don't even want to think about the dolphins and seas turtles I've had the pleasure of growing up and swimming with. I grew up in the panhandle, learned how to fish, scuba dive, get stranded, get rescued, smoke cigarettes, and on and on. This is truly frustrating to no end.
 
rockcitycafe said:
the only thing I could think of when I heard of this is how "renewables are so much more expensive and need subsidies", which is the whole excuse that seems to be used to kill those projects. when things like this happen, it always makes me think of the real cost of fossil fuels, that aren't included in the price at the pump or the electric meter, I heard someone on NPR who made a good point, that if one of the oil rigs in the gulf goes down, it's a huge disaster, but if EVERY wind turbine in the country crashed, there would be no pollution whatsoever... not to sound high and mighty either, I get pissed off when gas gets high like everyone else, but I'd be willing to pay more for energy and fuel if I knew it was being made in a way that wasn't going to destroy the planet
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Not to start an arguement here, but you do realize that petroleum does not come from dead dinosaurs stewing in tar pits I hope? And that it has been proven that the earth itself naturally replenishes this naturally occuring chemical compound? That the idea that we are somehow "running out of oil" is a hoax perpetrated by both sides of the arguement- the enviromental wackos and corporate shills and both sides bought off "scientists"? And that the Plastics, foams, alloys, and other chemical compounds needed to build and power the "hybrids" and "green" vehicles are largely forumlated from and manufactured by petroproducts?

Time to wake up and stop smelling the enviro/politcal nonsense that seems to permeate the concepts of what oil and petroproducts really are and do.
Makes me sick thinking about how the "truth" is twisted and used to bend public ideals.
 
It's not about the "losing oil", it's about the environmental consequences of using it...coupled with the fact that the only reason it is so persistent as an energy source is based solely on the fact that it is getting somebody somewhere mega rich. It shows a fault in our human psyche proving that we are 10 parts greed to one part conscious.
 
Firestarter said:
Not to start an arguement here, but you do realize that petroleum does not come from dead dinosaurs stewing in tar pits I hope? And that it has been proven that the earth itself naturally replenishes this naturally occuring chemical compound? That the idea that we are somehow "running out of oil" is a hoax perpetrated by both sides of the arguement- the enviromental wackos and corporate shills and both sides bought off "scientists"? And that the Plastics, foams, alloys, and other chemical compounds needed to build and power the "hybrids" and "green" vehicles are largely forumlated from and manufactured by petroproducts?

Time to wake up and stop smelling the enviro/politcal nonsense that seems to permeate the concepts of what oil and petroproducts really are and do.
Makes me sick thinking about how the "truth" is twisted and used to bend public ideals.
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you're right, it doesn't come from dinosaurs, it mostly comes from things like plant matter, which is being fossilized at a much slower rate than we are using it. the "earth" doesn't replenish fossil fuels, if you're insinuating that it's a geologic process, they're organic compounds, from organic matter, which were at some point living matter. anyone who took chemistry and biology in high school before they decided that the tooth fairy was responsible for valence electron bonding would know that. Also-as someone who does a good deal of work with composites, I can tell you that the base hydrocarbons used to produce resins and plastics can just as easily be made from plant oils. it's just that plant oils are more expensive than fossil oils at this point (see above reference to "real cost of fossil fuels"). and anyone who thinks that fossil fuels aren't polluting, please tell me whether you'd rather spend a week vacationing next to a coal plant smoke stack, or under a wind turbine.
 
This is a disaster. Probably the largest in the history of the world. I saw on the news last night, where the containment efforts were likened to "going big game hunting with a bb gun" Not very comforting to say the least. I think it's time we bring home EVERY single soldier, and person involved in any type of war anywhere in the world! We have much bigger problems at home that need their services.It also pisses me off to think that while BP has taken full responsability for this disaster, the oil companies will just raise prices, so we end up paying for it! No skin off their asses!!!!!!! Also speculaters will make shitloads of money off this, and you can sure as hell bet insurance companies are going to use this to up their profits as well! The list will go on and on with the greedy bastards who will ultimately profit from this.I sincerely wish them all to rot in Hell.
 
Firestarter said:
Not to start an arguement here, but you do realize that petroleum does not come from dead dinosaurs stewing in tar pits I hope? And that it has been proven that the earth itself naturally replenishes this naturally occuring chemical compound? That the idea that we are somehow "running out of oil" is a hoax perpetrated by both sides of the arguement- the enviromental wackos and corporate shills and both sides bought off "scientists"? And that the Plastics, foams, alloys, and other chemical compounds needed to build and power the "hybrids" and "green" vehicles are largely forumlated from and manufactured by petroproducts?

Time to wake up and stop smelling the enviro/politcal nonsense that seems to permeate the concepts of what oil and petroproducts really are and do.
Makes me sick thinking about how the "truth" is twisted and used to bend public ideals.
Click to expand...

This is a little bit outside of my expertise and I know I shouldn't take the bait here, but my understanding is that the abiogenic theory of petroleum production is not widely supported. If you have some good links, I'd love to see them (genuinely interested, not being sarcastic).

First, the abiogenic theory (that oil can be produced by means other than decomposition of organic matter) is not mutually exclusive with the biogenic theory; it simply states that non-organic processes may be an additional way that petroleum is produced. I know some die-hard proponents claim that all known petroleum is of abiogenic origin, but I think most scientists (no quotes necessary) who take it seriously don't think in either-or terms and accept that most of the currently exploited sources are old fashioned geologic compost.

Also as I understand it, research into abiogenic oil production has demonstrated (very excitingly) that components of oil such as heavy hydrocarbons can be produced without organic decomposition. Among the many reasons that this is cool, it suggests that oil (at least components of oil) could be produced extraterrestrially on planets without life. On the other hand to my knowledge the published studies of the abiogenic model have not documented substantial supplies of actual petroleum produced in this way. This doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist somewhere in some quantities, but at the moment it doesn't have any commercially explorable reality. Technology to synthesize abiogenic compounds into usable oil might be a productive outcome of this research, but as a non-engineer I'll stay out of that speculation.

Finally I want to take issue with your broad statement about scientists being bought off. That is a pretty big charge that should only be leveled with documentation. The idea that scientists answer to some central authority and scheme together to hide knowledge from the public is just silly. Professional research is wildly competitive and any slight advantage will be jumped on by individuals who want to distinguish themselves from the masses. Anybody who could find an endless supply of abiogenic oil could capitalize on it and become both famous in scientific circles and wealthy beyond imagining. As a scientist in a field that is often accused of conspiring to spread lies I get kind of defensive about this. I work very long hours for very low pay because I am interested in creating knowledge and sharing it. I'm sure there are corrupt scientists in the world (especially where their work overlaps with high power industry), but the vast majority who say unpopular things say them because we think they will help move us toward better understandings of the world.

Again, I'm not trying to fight here and petro-engineering is way outside of my research so I'll be happy to look at any sources you have for an endless supply of oil that we have somehow overlooked. My understanding of it though is that we're a long way from disproving the biogenic model.

Dan
 
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/www/NPRE%20402%20ME%20405%20Nuclear%20Power%20Engineering/Biogenic%20and%20Abiogenic%20Petroleum.pdf

here's an interesting write up, seems to give an even analysis to both theories of oil production

my last point still stands though, I'd like to see us stop using petro based fuels, as there's really no disagreement as to the fact that they are changing the climate and polluting the planet
 
So, the next step is apparently to slow down the leaking by about 80% with a 40 foot tall containment box.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/03/oil.spill.desperate.measure/index.html?hpt=C1
 
I have been away for the last 5 days and have not had time to read all of this, but I am very glad that everyone here has concern for this situation. I, along with alex will be directly effected by this, and everyone in the world will be indirectly effected. I really have no words to describe my emotions over this situation. It is a problem that breeds more problems, and even the posible solutions breeds problems. No one has the answers, and no one will. I feel no need for me to rant, for all of my thoughts have been expressed for the most part.
 
rockcitycafe said:
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/www/NPRE%20402%20ME%20405%20Nuclear%20Power%20Engineering/Biogenic%20and%20Abiogenic%20Petroleum.pdf

here's an interesting write up, seems to give an even analysis to both theories of oil production

my last point still stands though, I'd like to see us stop using petro based fuels, as there's really no disagreement as to the fact that they are changing the climate and polluting the planet
Click to expand...

Thanks man, that's an interesting write up. This clearly demonstrates that abiogenic oil is possible, and that could be an interesting way to deal with supply in the future.

But you're absolutely right on the bigger point. It doesn't matter if the oil comes from rotting plankton, irradiated primordial gasses, or mermaid semen, it's definitely fucking up the gulf and will continue to fuck up ecosystems every time an accident happens.

I doubt we'll ever have totally safe/clean energy but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reduce these risks.

Dan
 
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