Question for Canadians

brewtown16

what, me worry?
kinda off topic...

had an argument with my grand father (crusty WW2 vet type), and what better to ask a bunch of great people about thier heath care system. Is it good? is there really bad problems? what is your overall view of socialized healthcare in your country?
 
The quality of health care is good. The biggest problems we have are wait times and the shortage of doctors in remote areas. There is no such thing as the perfect system but I don't want to trade it for the American healthcare method. Best I can tell it works great with lots of doctors and short wait times as long as you have good health insurance and or lots of money.
 
I have never had a problem with healthcare here in Ontario.
If I need to go to my doctor, I get in quickly. If tests are required (MRI, xray, ultrasound, bloodwork), again they are done quickly. And the cost is covered by OHIP (Ontario health insurance plan) which is covered by business taxes.
Should I have to go to the hospital emergency... the most serious cases are looked after first, so yes, if you have a tummy-ache or a boo-boo on your finger you may as well go home .
I flew the Air Ambulance here in Toronto, and was impressed with the efficient trauma-care that people recieved. Imagine being airlifted to a trauma centre, being treated for serious life threatening injuries... and paying nothing!
I am sure that the occassional patient has difficulties and there are problems... but in most cases it is a fair system.
 
It's great... have to wait a Long, Long time for specialists... but I've had every kind of scan you can imagine done and walked away without paying a cent.
;D
You have to pay for bone scans, cat scans, bloodwork and all that stuff right? I'd imagine I'd have run up quite a debt in the US.
:eek:
 
You have to pay for EVERYTHING here! And I mean everything. And it's ridiculously expensive. It's scary when you make enough money to not be on welfare, but don't make enough money to afford insurance. And there is a lot of us in this situation.
 
well, im graduating college in a semester. my parents insurance is dropping me right when i turn 23, which is in november. i have a PPO type, in which i have freedom to choose which doctors and what hospitals i want to go to, as long as they take my insurance. whenever i go see the doctor, its $25. if i see a specialist, its $40 if i go to the emergency room, its $150. also, medications are super expensive here. i know you guys have some kind of plan about 10 bucks for any size script, well.... not here. it would be nice to be able to have that in mind, seeing how i might possibly have skin cancer. (going to the doc on friday). well, if my grandfather says it makes me a communist, well, BRING ON THE COMMIES!
 
Represto said:
Did you just call us communists?

Healthcare is universal and free in Cuba also... so maybe we are communists.

Perscription drugs here are less expensive than the USA due to our government limiting what drug companies charge the public. If you have a drug plan with your employer it can be very low cost. The Ontario Government also has a program for low income people and those without drug plans to provide some drugs... but not all are included. Elderly persons (over 65) also get persciptions for a deal.

Healthcare is available to all Ontario residents and the cost of the program is funded by business/industry/corporations, is it any wonder why the big capitalist establishment south of the border fears having to provide for the population at large? If a fraction of the military spending in Iraq went to healthcare... everyone in the USA would be covered.
 
avhelipilot said:
If a fraction of the military spending in Iraq went to healthcare... everyone in the USA would be covered.

I don’t have evidence otherwise, but I *think* this might be a bit of an exaggeration. What is most sad however is the amount wasted on failed social programs.

Honestly, my questions are out of curiosity and not to start a debate; nothing ruins a good bike forum faster than political flame wars.

Do you have a welfare system in Canada? How are individuals, caught in the welfare system, motivated to work towards something more? Do illegal aliens have the easy access to social programs, health care, and education as they do here in the US? Are there caps on liability lawsuits? Can people there sue one another indiscriminately, for arbitrary reasons, for unlimited amounts of money?

Sorry if some of my questions seem dumb, but I honestly don’t know.
 
i agree... nothing ruins a great time than a horrible political debate. sorry mates. i was just seeing what its like on the other side of the fence. a grass might be greener kind of thing. well, i do know what its like to sacrifice. and i am american. ive had the choice between paying rent and buying groceries, and buying fuel for my vehicle to take me to work, and going to college over working to afford to live.

i ask any moderators to close up this thread. i think weve reached an understanding, and thanks for the info guys :)
 
Doesn't seem to be getting out of hand - I can close it but I don't see any flame throwers being used... yet ;)

We do have welfare in Canada. Speed2XS - the world is consumed by consumerism, not just the US or Canada. Everyone wants what they don't have, whether that be the next cafe racer project bike or the next meal. Let's leave the debate on the direction the world is going in for another thread.

The original question was is the Canadian health care system good. Good being relative, it only works if you compare it to other systems around the world. I'm not equipped to do that, but I have heard that we compare relatively well, if you define good as 'cheap'. We don't have a pay-per-use health care system for the most part. There are differences from province to province, and there are private clinics if you want to skip the line and pay for your MRI etc. Insurance covers only so much of certain types of care, and there is no dental coverage or optical coverage (i.e. glasses etc.).

As a lucky employee of a large corp., I get additional health care insurance that covers some additional things including dental.

None of it is 'free' though. We pay very high personal income taxes and I pay 13% tax on everything I buy or do here in Ontario. I take home just over 1/2 my paycheque and then pay 13% more back to the governments on every dollar I spend (which is about every dollar!). So for every $100 I earn and spend, over $50 goes to the Governments of Canada and Ontario.

We are a socialist country. One of our three main political parties is the NDP, who are staunch socialists. They have been in power from time to time but not at the Federal level for a long time.

I like this system, at least for health care as it provides for all. My daughter spent her first 10 days in the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto on a ventilator and had multiple CT and MRI scans. The thought of what it was costing never crossed my mind, doesn't cross the nurses' or doctors' minds and isn't a topic of discussion. Every ounce of energy was focussed on getting her better. So not only was I not left in crippling debt, more importantly we never had to even think about the cost.

That seems to me to be one of the key benefits of universal health care - everyone can focus on the care. Hospitals are run like businesses of course, and they have to answer for the costs, but it's not the primary concern.
 
thats EXACTLY how its ran here in the states.... like a business.... its hard to get anything done. insurance companies really hassle people, people who need the right help. i never knew you guys didnt have dental- i thought that was apart of the high taxes you guys pay. if im not mistaken, dont the brits have full dental/vision/ healthcare?
 
Good comments everybody!

Well said Tim.

There is no free lunch! It's kinda like the old Fram oil filter ad, "pay me now... or pay me later." It's nice not to have to worry about the cost when you need the care! We do pay a significant price in taxes for that peace of mind! To me, it's worth it.
 
Thanks guys for your answers and info. I edited out my opinions from my first post to keep things on the up and up.

I would like to know how you handle the other issues I asked about too.

What are property taxes like there?

Here in California I pay about 20-22% in taxes (state and federal) every year. Then we pay 7.25% sales tax each purchase; add another 7.25% to that for fuel purchases. We're then taxed 1.25% per year on our home ($2750.00 last year). The registration on my vehicle is $200 per year, $65 every two years for pollution cert.

Anyway, I just did the math and my tax liability was about 34.29% for 2007. As I am self emplyoeed my health insurance cost me $160 a month, a group rate, not including vision or dental and a high co-pay.
 
Five Capitalist Democracies & How They Do It

United Kingdom

Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) spent on health care: 8.3

Average family premium: None; funded by taxation.

Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. Young people and the elderly are exempt from all drug co-pays.

What is it? The British system is "socialized medicine" because the government both provides and pays for health care. Britons pay taxes for health care, and the government-run National Health Service (NHS) distributes those funds to health care providers. Hospital doctors are paid salaries. General practitioners (GPs), who run private practices, are paid based on the number of patients they see. A small number of specialists work outside the NHS and see private-pay patients.

How does it work? Because the system is funded through taxes, administrative costs are low; there are no bills to collect or claims to review. Patients have a "medical home" in their GP, who also serves as a gatekeeper to the rest of the system; patients must see their GP before going to a specialist. GPs, who are paid extra for keeping their patients healthy, are instrumental in preventive care, an area in which Britain is a world leader.

What are the concerns? The stereotype of socialized medicine -- long waits and limited choice -- still has some truth. In response, the British government has instituted reforms to help make care more competitive and give patients more choice. Hospitals now compete for NHS funds distributed by local Primary Care Trusts, and starting in April 2008 patients are able to choose where they want to be treated for many procedures.


Japan

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 8

Average family premium: $280 per month, with employers paying more than half.

Co-payments: 30 percent of the cost of a procedure, but the total amount paid in a month is capped according to income.

What is it? Japan uses a "social insurance" system in which all citizens are required to have health insurance, either through their work or purchased from a nonprofit, community-based plan. Those who can't afford the premiums receive public assistance. Most health insurance is private; doctors and almost all hospitals are in the private sector.

How does it work? Japan boasts some of the best health statistics in the world, no doubt due in part to the Japanese diet and lifestyle. Unlike the U.K., there are no gatekeepers; the Japanese can go to any specialist when and as often as they like. Every two years the Ministry of Health negotiates with physicians to set the price for every procedure. This helps keeps costs down.

What are the concerns? In fact, Japan has been so successful at keeping costs down that Japan now spends too little on health care; half of the hospitals in Japan are operating in the red. Having no gatekeepers means there's no check on how often the Japanese use health care, and patients may lack a medical home.


Germany

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 10.7

Average family premium: $750 per month; premiums are pegged to patients' income.

Co-payments: 10 euros ($15) every three months; some patients, like pregnant women, are exempt.

What is it? Germany, like Japan, uses a social insurance model. In fact, Germany is the birthplace of social insurance, which dates back to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck. But unlike the Japanese, who get insurance from work or are assigned to a community fund, Germans are free to buy their insurance from one of more than 200 private, nonprofit "sickness funds." As in Japan, the poor receive public assistance to pay their premiums.

How does it work? Sickness funds are nonprofit and cannot deny coverage based on preexisting conditions; they compete with each other for members, and fund managers are paid based on the size of their enrollments. Like Japan, Germany is a single-payment system, but instead of the government negotiating the prices, the sickness funds bargain with doctors as a group. Germans can go straight to a specialist without first seeing a gatekeeper doctor, but they may pay a higher co-pay if they do.

What are the concerns? The single-payment system leaves some German doctors feeling underpaid. A family doctor in Germany makes about two-thirds as much as he or she would in America. (Then again, German doctors pay much less for malpractice insurance, and many attend medical school for free.) Germany also lets the richest 10 percent opt out of the sickness funds in favor of U.S.-style for-profit insurance. These patients are generally seen more quickly by doctors, because the for-profit insurers pay doctors more than the sickness funds.


Taiwan

Percentage GDP spent on health care: 6.3

Average family premium: $650 per year for a family for four.

Co-payments: 20 percent of the cost of drugs, up to $6.50; up to $7 for outpatient care; $1.80 for dental and traditional Chinese medicine. There are exemptions for major diseases, childbirth, preventive services, and for the poor, veterans, and children.

What is it? Taiwan adopted a "National Health Insurance" model in 1995 after studying other countries' systems. Like Japan and Germany, all citizens must have insurance, but there is only one, government-run insurer. Working people pay premiums split with their employers; others pay flat rates with government help; and some groups, like the poor and veterans, are fully subsidized. The resulting system is similar to Canada's -- and the U.S. Medicare program.

How does it work? Taiwan's new health system extended insurance to the 40 percent of the population that lacked it while actually decreasing the growth of health care spending. The Taiwanese can see any doctor without a referral. Every citizen has a smart card, which is used to store his or her medical history and bill the national insurer. The system also helps public health officials monitor standards and effect policy changes nationwide. Thanks to this use of technology and the country's single insurer, Taiwan's health care system has the lowest administrative costs in the world.

What are the concerns? Like Japan, Taiwan's system is not taking in enough money to cover the medical care it provides. The problem is compounded by politics, because it is up to Taiwan's parliament to approve an increase in insurance premiums, which it has only done once since the program was enacted.


Switzerland

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.


Health Care Systems - The Four Basic Models


An excerpt from correspondent T.R. Reid's upcoming book on international health care, titled We're Number 37!, referring to the U.S.'s ranking in the World Health Organization 2000 World Health Report. The book is scheduled to be published by Penguin Press in early 2009.

There are about 200 countries on our planet, and each country devises its own set of arrangements for meeting the three basic goals of a health care system: keeping people healthy, treating the sick, and protecting families against financial ruin from medical bills.

But we don't have to study 200 different systems to get a picture of how other countries manage health care. For all the local variations, health care systems tend to follow general patterns. There are four basic systems:


The Beveridge Model

Named after William Beveridge, the daring social reformer who designed Britain's National Health Service. In this system, health care is provided and financed by the government through tax payments, just like the police force or the public library.

Many, but not all, hospitals and clinics are owned by the government; some doctors are government employees, but there are also private doctors who collect their fees from the government. In Britain, you never get a doctor bill. These systems tend to have low costs per capita, because the government, as the sole payer, controls what doctors can do and what they can charge.

Countries using the Beveridge plan or variations on it include its birthplace Great Britain, Spain, most of Scandinavia and New Zealand. Hong Kong still has its own Beveridge-style health care, because the populace simply refused to give it up when the Chinese took over that former British colony in 1997. Cuba represents the extreme application of the Beveridge approach; it is probably the world's purest example of total government control.


The Bismarck Model

Named for the Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, who invented the welfare state as part of the unification of Germany in the 19th century. Despite its European heritage, this system of providing health care would look fairly familiar to Americans. It uses an insurance system -- the insurers are called "sickness funds" -- usually financed jointly by employers and employees through payroll deduction.

Unlike the U.S. insurance industry, though, Bismarck-type health insurance plans have to cover everybody, and they don't make a profit. Doctors and hospitals tend to be private in Bismarck countries; Japan has more private hospitals than the U.S. Although this is a multi-payer model -- Germany has about 240 different funds -- tight regulation gives government much of the cost-control clout that the single-payer Beveridge Model provides.

The Bismarck model is found in Germany, of course, and France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Japan, Switzerland, and, to a degree, in Latin America.


The National Health Insurance Model

This system has elements of both Beveridge and Bismarck. It uses private-sector providers, but payment comes from a government-run insurance program that every citizen pays into. Since there's no need for marketing, no financial motive to deny claims and no profit, these universal insurance programs tend to be cheaper and much simpler administratively than American-style for-profit insurance.

The single payer tends to have considerable market power to negotiate for lower prices; Canada's system, for example, has negotiated such low prices from pharmaceutical companies that Americans have spurned their own drug stores to buy pills north of the border. National Health Insurance plans also control costs by limiting the medical services they will pay for, or by making patients wait to be treated.

The classic NHI system is found in Canada, but some newly industrialized countries -- Taiwan and South Korea, for example -- have also adopted the NHI model.


The Out-of-Pocket Model

Only the developed, industrialized countries -- perhaps 40 of the world's 200 countries -- have established health care systems. Most of the nations on the planet are too poor and too disorganized to provide any kind of mass medical care. The basic rule in such countries is that the rich get medical care; the poor stay sick or die.

In rural regions of Africa, India, China and South America, hundreds of millions of people go their whole lives without ever seeing a doctor. They may have access, though, to a village healer using home-brewed remedies that may or not be effective against disease.

In the poor world, patients can sometimes scratch together enough money to pay a doctor bill; otherwise, they pay in potatoes or goat's milk or child care or whatever else they may have to give. If they have nothing, they don't get medical care.

These four models should be fairly easy for Americans to understand because we have elements of all of them in our fragmented national health care apparatus. When it comes to treating veterans, we're Britain or Cuba. For Americans over the age of 65 on Medicare, we're Canada. For working Americans who get insurance on the job, we're Germany.

For the 15 percent of the population who have no health insurance, the United States is Cambodia or Burkina Faso or rural India, with access to a doctor available if you can pay the bill out-of-pocket at the time of treatment or if you're sick enough to be admitted to the emergency ward at the public hospital.

The United States is unlike every other country because it maintains so many separate systems for separate classes of people. All the other countries have settled on one model for everybody. This is much simpler than the U.S. system; it's fairer and cheaper, too.


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I can't imagine this happens in Canada due to the limiting of the government on the cost of scripts but, 1 of many issues that I see is these freebee's the drug companies are giving away to the people who can afford it the most. the MD's free trips for hocking the drugs and free lunch from drug reps. the cost is passed onto the average person. I should imagine it's in the multi millions for each company over the course of the year
If they would put that money to helping the elderly pay for scripts or people who are less fortunate.

I have it better than a lot of people because I work for a company that helps pay for medical insurance. but it kills me
 
its funny though, mortikan, that you brought up seniors trying to pay for medications- for a while there was a big fiasco about american elderly going across the border to get cheaper meds, and how they made these people out to look like criminals.
 
Guitargeek - Great post! Theres a whole lot of info there for sure. One thing is evident, our healthcare system is f'ed up.
 
Reading through this post makes me realize how happy I am to be Canadian. ;D
(And how easy it is to take it for granted)

And don't get me started on patriotism toward NL. ;)
 
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